Dissociatives [Ketamine Subthread] Isomers: R and S Ketamine

[Nibiru]

Here you can see the difference between the two isomers in crystal form:

Link

As you can see it is the S on top and R on the bottom. They taste a little different, look a
little different and act a little different. It's almost as if they were a little different you might say.

Okay, those look exactly like the two types of k I was used to seeing!

What I'm really wondering about is, with ketamine or any other chiral molecule that might do the same thing, why do the crystals form differently? What's the principle of molecular geometry that would explain this phenomenon?

 

[MyExcuse]

How is it possible that one can seperate enantiomers with tartaric acid(ie a chemical reaction) when enantiomers are chemically identicle?

this explains it quite well:

*snip*

Bit too close to synth discussion that, I'm afraid. Sure those who wish to know can do their own research. We also don't generally allow links to that site (well, "those" parts of it anyway) so that also got the snip.

I don't know how to better explain it, it makes perfect sense to me. Just because they are chemically identical, does not make they are exactly identical. That's like saying identical twins are identical.

hope my explanation doesn't break the synthesis rule... it's not really synthesis information.

 

[Solipsis]

Okay, those look exactly like the two types of k I was used to seeing!

What I'm really wondering about is, with ketamine or any other chiral molecule that might do the same thing, why do the crystals form differently? What's the principle of molecular geometry that would explain this phenomenon?

The secret is in the stacking, it's like tetris. If you have the right places to fit the moieties, then you can make a lattice

 

[nuke]

How is it possible that one can seperate enantiomers with tartaric acid(ie a chemical reaction) when enantiomers are chemically identicle?

Due to the enantiomeric forms of tartaric acid preferring one enantiomer over the other when salting. See chiral resolution.

 

[delta_9]

Intersting. I never knew this was possible.

That's like saying identical twins are identical.

Right....except that they are The diiferences in DNA are so small most modern DNA tests cant even detect them.

 

[Syd_Barret]

Has anyone noticed that their vision isn't nearly as compromised on S ketamine?

I don't have as much trouble reading text while on S ketamine it seems.. but on racemic, I get double vision like made and often have to close one of my eyes in able to read any sentences on the computer monitor..

Just an observation.

 

[Shambles]

I find s-ket makes me far less "drunk" than racemic. On racemic I'm a wonky mess. On s-ket I can function reasonably well in public. That's both at low-moderate doses, of course. High doses of either are pretty hard to cover :D

Personally I find s-ket far more lucid and less befuddling than racemic - kinda "cleaner" feeling in a way. Never sampled r-ket so don't know about that one.

PS: I also find s-ket is less of an eyefuck than racemic but with tolerance there seems less of a difference for me.

 

[Solipsis]

That's strange, because S-ket is more sedative, impairs motor function and produces the freaky robotwalks.
R-ketamine is used as more of a hallucinogen that lets you walk around freely in clubs around here!

 

[Syd_Barret]

It seems like there is debate on this issue.

 

[Nibiru]

That's strange, because S-ket is more sedative, impairs motor function and produces the freaky robotwalks.
R-ketamine is used as more of a hallucinogen that lets you walk around freely in clubs around here!

I think the amount of the shit you're putting in your horn has a lot more to do with it. Half a gram of any nice K in anybody's face is likely to make them have to walk around with one hand over one eye for an hour.

 

[Syd_Barret]

Yeah, without a doubt, but I think we're all referring to sub Khole doses and such.

 

[Solipsis]

It is my theory that on the subject of combining GHB with ketamine it depends on the isomer (ratio). S-ketamine is something I sure as shit would never combine with GHB but with R-ketamine it seems no problem to me, moreover some G can take the rough edge off the R isomer!

Don't hold this to be absolutely true or something, I'm just speculating but to me there is this clear distinction.^

 

[acidprime]

(s)ketamine - questions

I know someone that could be aquiring (s)ketamine.

In light of this being different to usual racemic ketamine, what different health risks are associated, and what can be done to minimize any adverse reactions?

From texts it looks to be 2 - 3x more potent, but apart from that i can't see any other obvious dangers to be on the look out for that could be different from racemic ket.


Thanks.

 

[Solipsis]

That's because it's not exactly different altogether, but racemic ketamine is 50% S-ketamine and 50% R. So there is nothing new with pure S, if anything you lose side-effects from R-ketamine that include frantic behaviour and derealization at higher doses. In return though the effects from S-ketamine are course compounded since its now pure, I have reason to believe S-ketamine is harder on the body i.e. kidneys, bladder and GI tract. Honestly, too high a frequency of use should be avoided with any kind of ketamine and remember that its pretty addictive.

I'm going to merge this with the Ketamine subthread we have for this.

 

[Jamshyd]

While I have not yet had the chance to try pure S-ket yet, since the last post I made here I DID get the chance to try K that is 100% confirmed to be a mix that is much more S than R (forgot the exact ratio).

I will say that I am not exactly impressed, though sadly this seems to be the direction that the world of new dissociatives is heading: dissociation without anaesthesia.

To me, the anaesthesia (note: NOT analgesia - I don't care about pain-killing effects, I care about sensory deprivation) is more than half of the entheogenic experience of K. I do not understand why people are in such a crunch to produce a Ketamine that is more like a classical psychedelic than it is like an anaesthetic. I honestly don't get the point of a non-dissociating dissociative.

This is why I insist that a recemate is the only way to go as far as entheogenic experiences are concerned. After all, sensory-deprivation is a well known shamanistic practice.

 

[Solipsis]

I agree Jamshyd!

But I do believe it's the other way around. With the S-isomer I get *much* more anaesthesia, up to the point that R hardly produces any. I understand that PCP is a bit more like that as well: the mind can be dissociated in ways while the body is not, so you can still move around in a disturbed state.
Maybe you mean something else with classically psychedelic but S-ketamine is not really that psychedelic at all, it gives me a more wholesome uniform dissociation, much less jumbled up and confused than the racemate or R.

I don't like to call R classically psychedelic either but rather psychotomimetic / psychotogenic. Friends agreed with me that especially in higher doses it can be pretty psychotic, far beyond the useful psychosis of DMT and much more frantic and frenzied.
It's not all that strange somehow if you think that R dissociates parts of the mind while leaving contact with the outside world intact. So especially if interaction with that outside world is required it all goes wrong and the mind tends to become quite conflicted about it.

Racemic seems to integrate that more bodily part of dissociation or anaesthesia of S and the mental part of dissociation, a sort of psycholysis - if I use that term correct - that R produces.

 

[0live]

Just been reading through this thread, as have got some K at the moment which is from a completely different source to normal.

To begin with I thought it was cut (and it may be?...) because although still white powder, it has a consistency more like icing sugar than what I've always come across as K crystals (even when 'cooked' /crushed)

When I got it, as it was not from a known or trusted source (long story that i wont go into here as to why not from the usual place as I know its stupid to not know your source), I IMd 100mg or so.

After about 2 mins I started to feel the psychedelic effects of K, but no sedation at all.

I usually take K in the dark, with music on, and usually the racemic-K that i get knocks me well out for 15-20mins or so on 200mg IM and I get good clean trips on it. I rarely remember details of these trips, though have some recollection of what goes on and remember little bits each time etc.

So this new K, while psychedelic and following all the usual trip patterns etc, gives me almost no sedation at all, in fact, quite the opposite. When I come round from the trip (after about 10mins) and turn on my laptop screen, I am still hallucinating fairly wildly in my peripheral vision and completely aware of these hallucinations and their interactions with me. If I close my eyes or it is pitch black, my vision is full of manic flashing fuzz and colours which is extremely unpleasant and can make me feel pretty sick (and has made me sick on a couple of occasions).
I feel completely awake, empty, edgy, hard, unpleasant in general, like all the goodness has been sucked out of my body. I feel vaguely poisoned, my mind feels empty and scratchy. I feel totally disconnected from, though completely aware of, the world around me.
It keeps me awake for a long long time (3-4 hours, maybe more) and throughout this time I just feel empty and sucked dry of any good.

I am also able to remember what seems like a fairly large portion of the trip, which is unusual for me.

I really don't like this new K at all, but interestingly a couple of my friends who also do ketamine, seem to like it a lot, and think its the best K they have ever had...??! I am tempted to think it has been cut, though after trying my best to understand this thread with my limited scientific knowedge, it would seem that maybe this K is R-ketamine alone? and not racemic or s-ket? :/ any ideas?? *confused* xx

 

[Solipsis]

Sounds like R-ketamine to me.

non-sedating: check
awareness of surroundings: check
mania and edginess: double check

I experimented with this. At first I thought it was interesting.
But after a while I found it to be schizo and dangerous.

My favorite ratio has to be 2/3 to 3/4 S-ket and 1/4 to 1/3 R-ket.
So 75-25 or 33-67 in %.

 

[daytripper10]

New source, round/barrel-shaped crystals. Very different from what we're used to. Less psychedelic, more sedating, even more painful up the nose. Anyone have any idea what could account for these differences?

 

[Amberthefrog]

Does anyone know if (human) medical ketamine can be found as the pure S isomer?
Just over a year ago I had my first experiences with ketamine, the first 3 times were all with medical ketamine (I'm sure of this but don't know a brand name). Since then I've had street ketamine many times and not only is it substantially less potent than the med stuff, it's also a lot less psychedelic at lower dosages. Up till about 200 mg the effects are for me largely lacking on the psychedelic front, after exceeding a certain dose though I rapidly loose connection with the world and disassociate. The medical stuff produced in me psychedelic affects at any dose, notably very pronounced closed eye visuals, a much greater degree of disassociation and a greater level of impaired communication. I've never been at the point on street ket where I'm still full associated with my body, (more or less) fully able to communicate but feeling like I'm on a psychedelic, I got to this point easily on medical ketamine.

Would this be that it's the pure S? Maybe a isomeric mixture with just more of the S in? Maybe it's just purer? I find the last option pretty doubtful in terms of explaining the differences :/ It also makes sense if this is the case as the R isomer produces more nausea which is something the anesthetist wouldn't want.