• TDS Moderators: AlphaMethylPhenyl | Eligiu | deficiT

Kratom Withdrawal

Alcohol withdrawal can kill you so saying kratom is worse is kind of a stretch.
I guess im not saying it's worse, just saying that it lasted forever (in my experience) I'll edit that. But I wouldn't be surprised if a really heavy kratom wd could do some damage, I mean 180/110 bp is nearing stroke territory, just my body chemistry I guess...
 
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This is not a tested method but it does make some sense least to me: switch to a good maeng da Kratom which releases it's alkaloids about twice as fast as, say, Bali. Then keep taking low doses of that only when you absolutely need it. Shay I'm thinking is, since the half life is so low and the onset of withdrawal is twice as quick, the symptoms should only last half the time, similar to how methadone withdrawal can last weeks more than opiate withdrawal since the half-life is so much greater.

Also, thai Kratom is sooo much easier to live your life on as if gives you similar opiate feelings as Bali without the laying on the couch with nausea all night. Keep in mind, one would have to get good maeng da for this.

It's out there. SWIMS first try with one of the bigger sites got SWIM some excellent stuff.
 
I had a bad Bali habit a few years back I found it much much harder to come off the Bali than any other krat.

After I got over the Bali habit I took to SGI and Prem Red Vein Thai, when I ran outa cash I went to Commercial Indo and then tapered down. Coming off the Thai was 10x easier than the Bali, now I'm quite content on the Commercial Indo - it does what I want it to do.
 
I ask that you leave behind everything you think you know about kratom and read what follows.

I've experienced withdrawals from both long iv heroin binges and long kratom binges, as well as wd's from other opiates.. In my opinion, withdrawals from UEI kratom are actually worse than those from heroin, and it's for the same reason that pod tea wd's are worse than those from morphine.. That reason is that with heroin and morphine, your body gets addicted to just one chemical. With UEI kratom, as well as with pod tea, your body gets addicted to a cocktail of chemicals.

I hate to disagree with the people that seem to have a "complex" about thinking they've gone through the hardest withdrawals. If you've gone through H withdrawal, good for you, that's a very hard thing to do. But like this person said, Kratom and PPT are both lots of chemicals combined, and thus may for some people, involve more serious withdrawal than H or the ilk.

The thing that differentiates kratom from ALL the other opiates is that it's a stimulant as well. So, when you're withdrawing, your body is missing essential energy as well as pain relief (with "pure" opiates, all you are missing is firing opioid receptors).

The primary active chemical in kratom is 8 times stronger than morphine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kratom). So the withdrawal, from heavy, daily use, is going to be almost unbearable. I've gone through it once, and the second time knew better and used less, but still had to chug through benzodiazepines, methylphenidate, alcohol, cannabis, and kava to get through. (All of these were legal or prescribed by the way.)

The next time I hear someone claim that kratom is weak, I'm going to go ahead and assume you haven't tried it in large enough amounts. Start with standardized 15x extract. Use as needed. After you've used for a year and withdrawn, tell me again how "weak" kratom is.

*edit* the withdrawals were so unbelievably terrible that I literally could not stop. I've also suffered from formidable anxiety and depression my entire adult life, as well as severe ADHD which probably acted as a catalyst. I also have delayed sleep phase syndrome (DSPS). When I started taking Kratom the feeling was remarkable - a total reversal of all the negative thoughts that would otherwise dominant. Being a CNS stimulant it also helped with the ADHD... at first. As I used more and more (peak as I said before, 50g pure leaf per day) my motivation diminished completely.

I think the best way to approach kratom is with great care, especially if you are using it for legitimate medical purpose. I've never tried meth but a documentary describes a man who set the shot put record at his school the first time he tried meth. After a small peak, there is a huge downfall, often to rock bottom. That's the extent of the comparison of K to meth because I don't believe K affects dopamine very much at all. The funny thing is, kratom DID help me with my anxiety and depression especially, and when I did a DXM trip at the peak of my use, I achieved a complete and utter reduction of anxiety, enough to finally asked out a girl I was smitten with, finally end up having sex (whee), and enough to develop an often tenuous, but stable and life-sustaining relationship that has endured for almost a year. And I'd never been in a real relationship before.

But K is a HARD drug, and if you use it daily in amounts >~15g WILL FUCK you over at some point. I spent my entire savings on it. As David says in "Detox or Die," every junkie has to suffer the agony... once in a while. And that's what you will eventually be - a junkie. The only difference between you and that heroin addict under the bridge is that he is using an extremely toxic substance. Kratom is chock full of antioxidants and fiber, so it is actually good for you. The caveat, as I reiterate, is the potential severity of the addiction and withdrawal. During my 2 year heavy stint on the drug, I lost a lot of weight, got cavities and gingivitis due to the accumulation of biofilm on the tongue and mouth. I developed chronic constipation and several intestinal blockages which had to be treated with strong laxatives. I went to the ER twice due to withdrawals and bad combos. Towards the end I couldn't sleep with it or without it, and was just taking it to feel okay. It was pretty much hell, and as much as I wanted to escape, the K was too hard to ignore. I got off because my gf fully threatened to leave me. I'm on it again because I believe moderation, enforced barbarically at times, can lead to therapeutic benefit. I told her I tried it again, but I'm actually doing things during the day now, so I think she's okay with the "don't ask, don't tell" that I suggested.

I am a VERY unique case given my past mental history and such. But here's my final word:

1. Kratom has powerful medicinal potential
2. Kratom itself is extremely safe to consume
3. Kratom can be so addictive that the withdrawals are 99% unbearable.

Take it as you will, and happy psychonautic journeys abound.
 
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Well, I'm past the 72 hour mark since I've last had kratom, and for the most part, it is bearable. I have been taking 15-20 grams of kratom once daily for the past 9-10 months, and before that used it 3-5 times a week for about a year with breaks here and there. The withdrawals aren't that bad, at all for me. I have found that a potent batch of kava root is a great ally for the RLS, depression and insomnia.

I think that some people in this thread need to make it very clear that there is a distinction between withdrawals from plain leaf kratom and from kratom extracts. Kratom extracts can cause a dependence that is just as difficult to break as moderately strong opiates. Yet, plain leaf kratom will create a rather weak dependence, especially if it is faithfully taken only once a day. The main reason why plain leaf kratom is most forgiving, is because its alkaloid profile is rather high in opiod and NMDA antagonists, while kratom extracts tend to be very low in opiod and NMDA antagonists. One can tell this is so if they take a lot of plain leaf. There is a ceiling effect with plain leaf, such that one doesn't get a pleasant euphoric/mood-lifting effect past a certain point, and that is partially due to a saturation limit of mitragynine and 7-ho-mitragynine at the mu- and delta- opiod receptors, mitraphylline's effects as a NMDA antagonist which has a tendency to lower one's tolerance to the mu and delta opiod agonist effects of mitragynine and 7-ho-mitragynine, AND because of Corynantheidine's opiod antagonist effect, which ultimately is what limits the saturation point by which mitragynine and 7-ho-mitragynine can reach with mu- and delta- opiod receptors. On the other hand, if one takes extracts like UEI, FST, among other legitimate extracts, the ceiling effect is very high, and indeed, one will feel very high. Further, if one sticks to just extracts, they will find that it is very difficult to maintain a certain level of inebriation with a consistent dose, day after day, and they will keep taking more and more. Therefore, everyone should avoid taking kratom extracts daily as much as possible. If anything is going to get kratom banned, it will be the extracts.

To alleviate withdrawals, one can do more than just consume kava root. I highly recommend that a person withdrawing from kratom exercises, a lot. This will stimulate endorphin production, and can encourage endogenous endorphin pathways by which the body regulates pain. Further, one should obviously eat healthy, and eat often, as it will only hasten recovery. Finally, a person withdrawing from kratom should try to read extensively, and train oneself in meditation. Reading will strengthen one's concentration, and meditation will benefit from that increased concentration and combat the insomnia by which one suffers the most. If a person could sleep, withdrawal would be much more manageable. So, above all, one should always focus on ways by which one could sleep better, even if that means one would have to take diphenhydramine, kava, doxylamine succinate, valerian root, melatonin, alcohol (try to limit this to once every 2-3 nights), among other tools.

Finally, withdrawal is only as hard as you make it. I have seen proof of that from people that have been in abrupt discontinuation withdrawal from long-term benzodiazepine "therapy," and they still went to work, and tried to keep a smile on their face. The human mind is capable of tremendous things, and one should never discount the option that there are different approaches to one's suffering. Some approaches can annihilate a person's connection to it, and as a result, limit the affect the suffering has on the individual. Subjective suffering is measured by a constantly changing yardstick that is partially dependent on one's genetics (some people are blessed to not have ever experienced withdrawal despite being in a situation that would guarantee it for others) and mostly dependent on one's ability to cope with suffering. Something to keep in mind.
 
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People that have withdrawn from kratom, what's the average length of withdrawal? I'm seeing numbers from 3-4 days to a month or longer. I'm sure the longer cases are PAWS, but I'm on day 8 right now and still feeling pretty poor if I don't take my loperamide. The headaches are really the most bothersome thing at this point in time, very different to withdrawal from classic opiates IMO. Anyway, I'm trying to get a feel for how long most people's withdrawal lasts. It is certainly not the same as withdrawal from other opiates...
 
Greetings!

I posted in another thread, sorry, newbie and in w/d from copious amounts of Kratom extracts. The UEI and FST. My cocktail of choice if you will, was 1/4 tsp of UEI and about 60 drops of FST. That got me going in the morning. Next dose was that same amount, 3 hours later, then 2 to 4 more doses through out the day. Very expensive. Dropping about $3000 every 2 months.... buying 100ml of FST at a pop, and that would only last about 17 days if I really tried to stretch it. Last Friday was my last dose of this crap. I want my life back. I still am having w/ds pretty good. Used benzos for 2 days for sleep, and last night I was out of them, and guess what, no sleep. I am on day 5 and feeling much better than the first couple of days, but not near 100%.

I have kicked a year long hydro habit of 150mg daily with ease compared to the hell this shit is causing.

I would love to know the half life of this "plant". The extracts are what did me in. I think if you use the leaf only, you won't have to much problems coming of it.

My 2 cents.
 
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^I used plain leaf only... I'm on day 9 of w/d right now.
 
I am so angry at myself right now.

I am having the body buzz all day, like on day 3.... shit, I am going backwards. Just sauna'd and feel a bit better. Did go to work for a couple of hours today, but was worthless.... laid on the floor for half the day.

Really pissed off at myself for letting it get this out of hand.
 
People that have withdrawn from kratom, what's the average length of withdrawal? I'm seeing numbers from 3-4 days to a month or longer. I'm sure the longer cases are PAWS, but I'm on day 8 right now and still feeling pretty poor if I don't take my loperamide. The headaches are really the most bothersome thing at this point in time, very different to withdrawal from classic opiates IMO. Anyway, I'm trying to get a feel for how long most people's withdrawal lasts. It is certainly not the same as withdrawal from other opiates...

Sorry about the extremely delayed response, but I felt 100% after day 9 or so. The physical w/d was completely gone by day 5, and I slept normally by day 7. How often did you dose? I tend to only dose in one sitting (a couple times within 1-2 hours). I take it you stuck to plain leaf? Also, kratom w/d can be painless if one tapers, and sticks to a once-a-day dosing schedule (if one is to dose daily).
 
Well, I'm past the 72 hour mark since I've last had kratom, and for the most part, it is bearable. I have been taking 15-20 grams of kratom once daily for the past 9-10 months, and before that used it 3-5 times a week for about a year with breaks here and there. The withdrawals aren't that bad, at all for me. I have found that a potent batch of kava root is a great ally for the RLS, depression and insomnia.

I think that some people in this thread need to make it very clear that there is a distinction between withdrawals from plain leaf kratom and from kratom extracts. Kratom extracts can cause a dependence that is just as difficult to break as moderately strong opiates. Yet, plain leaf kratom will create a rather weak dependence, especially if it is faithfully taken only once a day. The main reason why plain leaf kratom is most forgiving, is because its alkaloid profile is rather high in opiod and NMDA antagonists, while kratom extracts tend to be very low in opiod and NMDA antagonists. One can tell this is so if they take a lot of plain leaf. There is a ceiling effect with plain leaf, such that one doesn't get a pleasant euphoric/mood-lifting effect past a certain point, and that is partially due to a saturation limit of mitragynine and 7-ho-mitragynine at the mu- and delta- opiod receptors, mitraphylline's effects as a NMDA antagonist which has a tendency to lower one's tolerance to the mu and delta opiod agonist effects of mitragynine and 7-ho-mitragynine, AND because of Corynantheidine's opiod antagonist effect, which ultimately is what limits the saturation point by which mitragynine and 7-ho-mitragynine can reach with mu- and delta- opiod receptors. On the other hand, if one takes extracts like UEI, FST, among other legitimate extracts, the ceiling effect is very high, and indeed, one will feel very high. Further, if one sticks to just extracts, they will find that it is very difficult to maintain a certain level of inebriation with a consistent dose, day after day, and they will keep taking more and more. Therefore, everyone should avoid taking kratom extracts daily as much as possible. If anything is going to get kratom banned, it will be the extracts.

To alleviate withdrawals, one can do more than just consume kava root. I highly recommend that a person withdrawing from kratom exercises, a lot. This will stimulate endorphin production, and can encourage endogenous endorphin pathways by which the body regulates pain. Further, one should obviously eat healthy, and eat often, as it will only hasten recovery. Finally, a person withdrawing from kratom should try to read extensively, and train oneself in meditation. Reading will strengthen one's concentration, and meditation will benefit from that increased concentration and combat the insomnia by which one suffers the most. If a person could sleep, withdrawal would be much more manageable. So, above all, one should always focus on ways by which one could sleep better, even if that means one would have to take diphenhydramine, kava, doxylamine succinate, valerian root, melatonin, alcohol (try to limit this to once every 2-3 nights), among other tools.

Finally, withdrawal is only as hard as you make it. I have seen proof of that from people that have been in abrupt discontinuation withdrawal from long-term benzodiazepine "therapy," and they still went to work, and tried to keep a smile on their face. The human mind is capable of tremendous things, and one should never discount the option that there are different approaches to one's suffering. Some approaches can annihilate a person's connection to it, and as a result, limit the affect the suffering has on the individual. Subjective suffering is measured by a constantly changing yardstick that is partially dependent on one's genetics (some people are blessed to not have ever experienced withdrawal despite being in a situation that would guarantee it for others) and mostly dependent on one's ability to cope with suffering. Something to keep in mind.

This~
Great post sir!
Staying away from extracts really does make a huge difference for sure with severity of the krat withdrawl. You never want to get in the extracts habit with kratom. <snippy snip> .
 
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Here are my tips for Kratom Withdrawals and easing it as much as possible:

If you ever have trouble with withdrawals then get yourself some <snip - source>
Here is a list of healthy supplements I compiled to help with anyone withdrawing not only from Kratom but most opiates:
Phenibut, Admittedly, I dont have experience with this but i've heard good things, Just use moderately.
Eat an extremely clean diet based on fruit, veg and nuts/seeds! Especially Turkey, hazelnuts/almonds and banana's (contain so many nutrients vital to regulating mood and precursor to serotonin 5HTP)
XX w/d formula,
Moderate-Intense (Depending on how you feel) Exercise is incredible for getting endorphins rushing, increasing your mood and facilitating a lagging CNS .. though don't hit the weights too hard as this can stress your CNS. Cardio is more suited here.
Loperamide is great for regulating bowels and good for getting rid of nausea and extinguishing RLS to an extent also
You may even try Stem Powder which isn't really potent enough to give a decent high or contribute to withdrawals, but it CAN be pretty great at relieving withdrawals
Taper Down by systematically dividing each dose by a small amount to minimise discomfort. This is relative to the level and extremity of usage.
Masturbating can help increase your mood.
Sleep and Sunlight - ensure you get as much sleep as you can and sunbathe to stimulate Vitamin D response which is useful for regulating/upping mood.
Have a freezing cold shower twice a day - I always bang on about the power of the cold shower, but there's areason for that! The last time I was in kratom withdrawals, I was at the lowest ebb of depression for a LONG time and so very very anxious and almost suicidal.
I went for a long run/sprint then had a freeeezing cold shower (stay in it long enough for it to get almost warm/until you reach the point where you could stay in for longer if you wanted) afterwards and pretty much completely eliminated any signs of depression and my muscles were no longer aching and I actually burst into laughter as soon as I stepped out the shower! It was amazing - google "health benefits cold shower" :)

The hardest part of any of this is motivating yourself to actually do any of it, but trust me, if you carry out all or most of these steps I can guarantee you will be laughing out of withdrawals ;)

All the best
 
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I would agree to most of that attempt4 but I think that Loperamide is possibly the most effective thing you can get, it works for some and not for others. I found it to be more effective than codeine or any other opiate for the withdrawal of kratom, 40mgs throughout a day would of stopped my w/d altogether. It may be advisable to then taper that, but as far as i know its the best thing, some are now becoming addicted to that so I don't know but it is a godsend if used correctly. Yes it blocks you up abit, but not as bad as you may think, and anyway Id rather be blocked up for a while than walking for miles sweating and be utterly miserable which is what it was like. Yes yes i know loeramide doesnt cross the blood brain barrier but how come i felt relief, and as it happens loads of relief.
 
This is my 3rd day off kratom and low doses of MXE (10mg) and Valium (5mg) have been helping. After a 3 year heavy kratom addiction (3x a day, 15-20g at each time) the withdrawals are very similar to that of percocet (which I've gone through before once). I really am hoping that this helps but at the same time whenever I start coming off of the MXE I can't help feel restlessness, anxiety, depression, agitation, chills, sweats, and nausea and diarrhea. Going outside for a bit helps but I am really hoping that this all ends on day 4 or 5 especially and that I don't go through another withdrawal from the MXE. I am definetly not ordering anymore of this dam plant...it can be good for H or perc/vicodin w/ds but in the long run can be super addicting...in my case ending up going through a pound of quality stuff (regular Bali) in 2-3 weeks.
 
So I have a question, it isn't about Kratom withdrawal per-se, I'm on suboxone withdrawal after a falling out with my psychiatrist. This is the 8th full day of absolutely no opiates in my system, and it's been kinda rough so far, but due to all this stuff I keep hearing about Kratom I decided to order some when I first went into withdrawals. Now the package finally came, even though I was completely without any substances for several days, and now I'm wondering if it's considered backsliding or relapsing to take this Kratom. I've already gotten through theoretically the hardest part which is the first week, but I hate feeling like such shit, and now that the package came I am unsure if it's a good idea to consume the Kratom or not. I'm not feeling nearly as horrible, so I know I can manage without, but I still got the gastrointestinal problems that comes with opiate withdrawal, and aches, and other random symptoms like insomnia and whatnot, so It'd be nice to have some relief. The package came yesterday, and I took some, but then my dad asked why it helped and I told him I think the same receptors are involved, and that raised a red flag for him, understandably so.
I'm just wondering if this is going to open the door to another addiction, or if it's going to prolong withdrawals, or counter-act my goals to be free from addictive drugs for the long haul. I'm willing to do some short term drug use to ease the pain of withdrawals, but I cannot abide another addiction, so I'm just asking about this.

Thanks. I told my parents that I'd never order another package of Kratom because I got about 5oz of micronized Premium Bali. I take it by the teaspoon and use water to down it. The taste is like 10% green tea, and 90% pure dirt lol At least it's better than Kava kava, so I'm experienced with this level of nasty. It seems like I'd have enough to last for about a month.
 
I have been there...I am there.

I have browswd this forum for years, and finally joined to chime in on Kratom.
I found it to be the best plant for me, it eases my social anxiety, relieves pain, and makes me generally a harder worker.
2 years of daily use, I have only quit once. For 2 days, because I forgot to order.
It was hell.
Sitting at the jobsite, in the rain, chills, watery eyes...etc. I couldn't figure it out! I had never had that happen before.

I called around town, found a place that had it for $20 oz. It was only 4 miles away from my jobsite!
Fuck yeah!
I was back to myself in an hour, vowing NEVER AGAIN!!!


Well, it's almost 2 years later, and here I am again!
I forgot it was Sunday, blah blah blah... but secretly I did it on purpose. How strong am I?
Well, okay. I feel okay, with a bout of chills and a bit of crying (kratom can suppress your emotions)
But it's all in the head. Mostly. I avoid tinctures, and dosed 2 teaspoons twice daily at most. Responsible use I guess.
But the withdrawals are there. And they suck. They might not be the "surfer bro hacking into some untasty waves", but they still suck.

Power to the mind-
We can all do it. Kratom is justified as perfect and put on this pedestal, like it is this great thing that has so much potential, and no
side effects.
It is. It does.
Just more politics.

But so
 
Kratom is better than Subs in my opnion. Get off the pharmaceutical bandwagon, and let nature take over.
Sounds like you already have, but are fiunding something that might work for you anyway.
That may sound cliche, I know, but give it a chance. Start 2 teaspoons at a time, with some OJ. You can work up or down from there..
but FUCK THE SUBUTEX AND SUBOXONE! Please, for your own sake. :)
Good luck, if you need any advice on Kratom PM me. I would be glad to help, really.
Kratom will at least give you something to use if you CHOOSE to have a weak moment, so just keep it around in case.
The fact it tastes like shit is a deterrent for sure. :(
Peace,
Josh
 
This method will reduce your kratom withdrawal by about 95%, and it'll allow you to go to work regularly without suffering from WD's while at work. Its a true, tried and tested method:

Step 1. Try to taper down your kratom use to 2-4 grams twice or 3 times daily (I'm talking about the powder, not extract)

Step 2. Take your last 2-4 grams of powder after dinner, so around 7 or 8 PM. This will ensure a decent night sleep.

Step 3. Your WD's should start next day around noon to afternoon. As soon as you feel them coming on take the following: 1x250 mg Phenibut + 1x500 mg GABA.

Step 4. You need to take those 2 capsules every 2 to 3 hours during the first 3 worst days of your withdrawal. After 3 days you can taper it off to maybe taking them every 4 to 6 hours.

Step 5. You can also take loperamide if you get loose stool or diarrhea

And that is that, your WD's should only last 5 to 6 days at the most and you will barely feel a damn thing.

For some reason phenibut in combination with GABA works amazingly well, as opposed to phenibut alone. I believe the GABA takes care of the body WD's, and phenibut takes care of brain WD's since it does cross the BB barrier while GABA doesnt.

Now of course phenibut will cause some withdrawals also, bu you can take GABA to counter the phenibut WD's
 
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