GBL/GHB, dosage, duration, withdrawals

[buddhabar]

I'm sorry too...I used NA-GHB for extended times without any of these problems. But GBL sings it own blues on me...I can´t scientifically back this up...But I also have alot of friends who got the jitters and feel REALLY f*cked up from GBL. I read somewhere along the lines that the gbl molecule has some resamblence to glycol, dunno but it makes you go pee-pee alot and when mildly overdosed you sweat like no tomorrow...I´d say it definatly has some more capabilities than ghb to f*ck you over.

 

[fastandbulbous]

As far as I'm concerned, anyone printing off information from erowid about GHB is false

My info isn't from erowid, it's from my s/o who works for the Poisons Info Service, and the experience is mine. GBL causes an initially higher plasma level (of GHB) as it crosses membranes mech more quickly due to it's higher fat solubility. All the problems thar come with GBL are the same as GHB, only at higher doses

These are just hypothetical figures to show the point, 1g of GBL will produce a higher plasma level than 1g of GHB because it quickly passes into the bloodstream and is converted to GHB. Although it lasts a shorter time, 1g of GBL might produce a plasma level of GHB twice that of 1g of GHB, because of the speed GBL gets into the blood and is converted to GHB. That's why it's more dangerous & has more side effects dose for dose. It's like comparing say swallowing 25mg of amphetamine and injecting it; the injected dose is the samne, but it produces higher plasma levels (and hence side effects) as it doesn't have to wait as long to get into the brain

 

[buddhabar]

I will, hands down, never challenge your wisdom fastandboulbous.
I agree it could absolutly be along your lines, all I say it's stronger and more potent in it's whitdrawelsymptoms and thats the real lesson to be learned here.

 

[DjTaZZ]

Whatever, I still disagree. When I was using a liquid GHB format which tasted like paint thinner cause it had unreacted GBL in it, I had some NASTY NASTY side effects after daily use for about 2 weeks. I mean cold sweats, chills, mild low grade fever, anxiety, panic attacks. I've never had any of those with daily use of GHB Powder. I won't touch liquid ever again. I don't care what people say, I'll speak from my experience and from a Dr. Ward dean who's done extensive research on GHB, not GBL.

 

[paradoxcycle]

1) How could you possibly disagree with a man in his 40's (sorry Kev) who has degrees and DECADES of experience with pharmacology & to top it off is married to a woman in a similar field!?

2) How do you know the "liquid GHB" you had was indeed that?

 

[DjTaZZ]

I don't care what field he's in, do they study GHB extensively like Ward Dean, Steven Fowkes and others? No. Strictly Pharmacology. As for question #2, Pure GHB does not have that "Nasty Industrial Chemical Smell" so thats how I know how there was unreacted GBL in the mix. Just because I have my own opinion, there is no need to edit or warn me about my posts, thats just childish and foolish and makes this site looks bad just because I disagree with a moderator.

 

[paradoxcycle]

Originally posted by DjTaZZ
Just because I have my own opinion, there is no need to edit or warn me about my posts, thats just childish and foolish and makes this site looks bad just because I disagree with a moderator.

It's irrelevant and I don't owe you any explanation but I warned you because you blatantly violated the rules. People like you make Bluelight look bad; you're very disrespectful. Is it so hard to be nice to others?

 

[DjTaZZ]

Originally posted by paradoxcycle

It's irrelevant and I don't owe you any explanation but I warned you because you blatantly violated the rules. People like you make Bluelight look bad; you're very disrespectful. Is it so hard to be nice to others?

You just contradicted yourself right there. Because I have my own opinion, and don't go by what some government pharmacology propaganda says, you say "I'm wrong, he's right because he's a moderator". You have no respect for others either.

 

[paradoxcycle]

What are you talking about? I'm not going to embarrass you with specifics but you were warned for sourcing and several incidents of personal attacks. I don't want to hear anything further about this in this thread; PM me if you feel the need to discuss it.

 

[-=navel=-]

this is getting kind of ill.
F&B knows most of us all what he is talking about. if he says something about the farmacology of a substance he is right, we are wrong.

 

[fastandbulbous]

^ I've dropped some clangers in my time (never believe anyone without independant verification), but I'm pretty certain about this one

 

[buddhabar]

Well, well...

Kinda sad this thread got abit of topic but it's still a great infosource and motivator for me.
I slipped myself again, and is now at stage one where this thread started...
Meaning that every 2-3 hours I get the panicattacks.
Sadly I can't get my hands on any benzo. Although I hate diazepam for making me a Zombie, it does miracles during this phase. 20 mg diazepam, and I'm out in 24 hours from this hell I marvelously created for myself again.

The panic that comes is sometimes battled with zen-meditation and it's really mind of matter fights. But during workdays I can't really get into saizen in my office and meditate. So, it's easy to take geenas way out...
Currently holding semi-stable at 3-4 hours and 2,5 ml:s. But when nighttime closes up...Well things are harder to battle. Got a kid and wife at home, no peace and rest for meditation. We live in a small flat, no escape.

I know realise how ignorant I was, talking about my friend earlier in the thread...I know realise how his world looked like. Sadly he didn't believe in meditation and had eaten benzos like candy for years...He tried killing himself in this hell.

I don't have these thoughts, I compete in bodybuilding and starve myself for months before a competition. Train like mad...Now you might ask? No, now this selfbrought hell is taking up all of my focus. No training no eating no nothing but an inferno.

I realised I am a weak person after all putting myself in this situation again.
This is not who I was ment to be...Why, one might ask, did you awaken this demon...Well we all have our reasons, mine is just a kliche...Escapism...
I am not a psychonaut...Im just a psycho...Trying to escape what has been a wonderful life full of great moments and huge triumphs.

My worst enemy is not the world, it is me...

Sorry for the long topic, maybe should have created my own thread...But I kinda think this is ontopic. Just felt to write this of my chest...

Again, thank you all for your contris to this thread, it is a great inspirationsource for me. Knowledge is power, power is control. Control is everything...

 

[DjTaZZ]

You probably have GBL, thats why you getting panic attacks and made side effects. Lay off the shit for a good month get some benzo's, then get some pure GHB powder, you won't have near the problems you having now.

peace

 

[C6H6]

DjTaZZ, I request that you either present some real hard evidence for the superiority of NaGHB over GBL, or you shut up and stop spreading misinformation.

 

[DjTaZZ]

C6H6: where is your information that GBL is non-toxic there buddy? You shut up and stop spreading misinformation.

 

[DjTaZZ]

I don't care what you say C6H6, a couple other people on here have stated non-addiction potential with pure GHB powder, where is GBL they got a lot of nasty side effects, harsh withdrawals, terrible dopamine rebounds and everything. Do you not understand that? Also look at the information when GHB was pulled from the market you hardly heard of any withdrawal stories, but when GBL was banned in the US, you heard of people having full blown dopamine psychosis and terrible withdrawals. If you've never taken GHB Powder, than I advise you shutup C6H6.

 

[synchrojet]

DjTazz-

C6H6 is correct. You can find many toxicology reports online that point out with specificity that GBL has zero organ specific toxicity. I have posted here several times about my personal blood monitoring which corroborated the assertion that GBL is non-toxic. In fact, my blood actually looked better on heavy GBL use than off. My liver and kidney functions actually improved with heavy GBL dosing. One of many specific examples include a total liver enzyme level of 31 while I was on a heavy winstrol cycle. Naturally I do not mix drugs any more, but this particular incident strongly supports the notion that moderate GBL consumption may actually improve liver function.

 

[paradoxcycle]

DjTaZZ, are you interested in another CLAWS? I suggest you cease and desist with the personal attacks now unless you're looking to get warned again.

 

[El_Toro]

I was browsing for "metabolic acidosis and GBL" and came up with this thread.

I am now convinced that metabolic acidosis is a fact. F&B, whilst I appreciate (as so do the rest) your input, I find that your lack of GBL use hampers your opinon on GBL.

I have been using GBL today on a 2 hour re-dose schedule for about 14 hours and I seem to suffer mild metabolic acidosis already. Blood shot eyes, feeling of numbess on skin and whole body, muscle and joint soreness, headache, rapid pulse, high blood pressure, a gutural feeling of "toxic" and a whole sensation of "spaced out" with mild anxiety (increased anxiety as drug is starting to fade). I also ALWAYS get muscle spasms. Oh yeah, I have not used GBL for about two weeks.

Everytime I use, I get this after two days of frequent dosing or half a day of round the clock dosing. I cannot believe people say it takes about two weeks to experience metabolic acidosis. Withdrawal occurs after several doses (I have seen research confirming wd on rats after ONLY 3 3mls doses spaced 4 hours apart, thank god we aint rats, but this seems to be a pretty solid confirmed schedule IME).

Only way I know I WILL sleep today is by knocking myself out with alprazolam, or at the very least taking a dose which will calm the fuck out of me. I cannot even close my eyes without having them sting me. My eyes are also fucking blood shot, which is a give away that I am experiencing massive blood pressure.

Yeah, dont use GBL kids. Dont know about GHB, but GBL is evil. Sure a couple of doses here and there are non-toxic, but forget about re-dosing for more than half a day.

I'd love to get a blood test right now and see my blood profile.

 

[Catechol]

Call me stupid, but I missed the logic part. Maybe you can cut and paste it for me?

Again I ask -- what caused the MEDICALLY OBSERVED AND DOCUMENTED ACIDOSIS that I experience regularly when I use GBL for extended periods of time and do not supplement with an alkalyzing agent?

GBL is hydrolyzed to GHB by the addition of a water molecule, where an -OH is added to the carbonyl carbon (1st carbon) to give a carboxylic acid (R-COOH) and the remainder of the H2O molecule -- a single proton -- is added to the oxygen on the 4th carbon to generate an alcohol (R-OH). However, GHB, in neutral or slightly basic aqueous solutions (blood is ~7.4), is going to readily deprotonate to form a carboxylate anion, essentially generating a molecule of acid as it reacts with any neighboring H2O molecule to form H3O+. The reason that NaGHB or KGHB doesn't do this is because these are salts of GHB -- there is no -COOH group and thus no proton to generate H3O+, instead, there's is an ionic bond between the COO- and a Group I metal.

Interesting note: The presence of the carboxylate group on the opposite end as the alcohol group is probably what allows GHB to pass the blood-brain barrier. Essentially, the sum of the charges on the COO- (both negative and partial negative) balances the charge of the -OH on the opposite end of the molecule. The net effect being a cancellation of the polarity of the molecule, and thus the ability to cross into the brain.

The loss of H+ from GHB is *NOT* analogous to the loss of H+ from amino acids -- which I'm sure someone is already wanting to bring up in rebuttal -- because amino acids typically exist as zwitterions. The lost proton from the -COOH is simply "given" to the -NH2 group, so the net physiologic effect is no generation of H3O+

The body has a well-adapted buffer system to deal with small changes in acidity or basicity, so the additional acid generated isn't going to kill you, but this doesn't mean that these changes are going to be pleasant, nor does it mean that these changes will always be noticed by everyone who ingests GBL.

So, in summary: Ingestion of GBL results in the in vivo formation of acid because GHB, once formed, always exists in anionic form at under normal human physiologic conditions (pH ~ 7.4), where a proton from the carboxylic acid group at the 1st carbon -- formed during GBL hydrolysis -- is immediately lost to a neighboring water molecule, forming a molecule of H3O+ and lowering the pH of the body.