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inkpixie
18-12-2012, 21:41
Hello All. Today is day one on my detox experiment from suboxone. My last dose was last night at around 7 pm. I am coming off of around 2 mg daily. It is too expensive without insurance. I will be using kratom, a bottle of liquid tylenol with codeine, imodium ad, fish oil and detox tea.
So far today I haven't really felt the withdrawal yet. I still have a long way to go before I will. I probably won't feel it until tomorrow or the next day due to subs long life span. I am feeling some fatigue but that is it. The only thing I have taken so far is 6 pills of imodium. I don't want to waste the other stuff. I will post later or tomorrow to let you know what is happening. Thank you for your support.

thePodFreak
18-12-2012, 21:54
detox tea.

What is detox tea? You mean poppy tea or something I haven't heard of?

inkpixie
18-12-2012, 22:38
No. Nothing that great unfortunately. It is a "detox tea" by Yogi. It is formulated to clean out your liver and flush toxins from your body. I will also be using an herbal tea called Pau D' Arco. This does basically the same thing.

inkpixie
18-12-2012, 22:49
Well, it is coming up on 21 hours from my last dose and I am getting my first cold chills. I am going to take some cayenne pepper capsules for that.

thePodFreak
19-12-2012, 05:10
Well, it is coming up on 21 hours from my last dose and I am getting my first cold chills. I am going to take some cayenne pepper capsules for that.

Fear and anticipation of withdrawals I feel create some of the worse symptoms - try to stay as busy as possible and keep your mind off the symptoms. Who knows, they might just never get worse! (they might though, but no reason to fear a probability, right?)

inkpixie
19-12-2012, 14:46
Thank you. I agree. Anyway, I woke up this morning, 36 hours from my last dose of sub, and I had the cold chills and classic withdrwal symptoms with some anxiety. I took 4 caps of cayenne pepper and broke out my kratom. I took 4 caps of a stronger vietnam strain of kratom and 2 caps of commercial grade Bali. About ten minutes later I could feel the heat in my belly from the cayenne and then about 5 minutes after that my stomach started churning and I puked. The cayenne burned like hell coming up but I didn't puke up a lot of the kratom from what I could tell. Now I can actually feel a slight euphoria from the kratom and I am having no withdrawal symptoms. I can actually function!! I have tried to get off of the sub before with just the commercial bali and I could feel no offects from it. This vietnam strain, however, is obviously much stronger as Arena Ethnobotanicals said it would be. It cost a lot more but it is definately worth it. Very good quality. So with all this being said, my reccommendation is to never take cayenne and Kratom together when you have withdrawal nausea. The cayenne is supposed to help with the cold chills but it is hell on your stomach!!

inkpixie
20-12-2012, 17:12
Hello All. Well, here it is 63 hours from my last dose of sub. Day 3 to be exact. So far the withdrawals are not that bad. Yesterday I took 24 caps of kratom. So far today I have taken 14. Either the kratom is staving off the WD or they just haven't hit me too hard yet. I am a bit low on energy and a little shaky but other than that it is manageable. I looked it up and learned that kratom binds more to a persons delta receptors than the mu. Sub binds to the mu receptors. Hopefully this means that I am not just prolonging my withdrawals by substituting something for the sub on the same receptors. I really hope this is the case anyway. If anyone has any experience with this, I would appreciate the input. Thanks!!

Znegative
21-12-2012, 01:03
Well, from what I know, you will still have to experience withdrawals when you decide to discontinue the Kratom, but they should be much less intense than the buprenorphine, and not nearly as long lasting. The fact that Kratom attaches to the Mu receptor to any degree though would indicate (I would think) that it could cause dependency.

I imagine that the Kratom is helping your withdrawals, rather than the withdrawals just being mild. 2mg is a pretty high dose of suboxone to jump off of, and I know that when I was on that dose, I would begin to feel withdrawals after 24 hours (that being said, I do have a fast metabolism, but at the same time, once your on dosages of suboxone under 4mg, the rise and fall or buprenorphine in your system is more dramatic than at higher dosages due to the fact that you are maintaining at a dose below the ceiling).

inkpixie
21-12-2012, 14:45
Thank you for the info. I do appreciate it. Here it is day 4. I just woke up and the WD is pretty mild. I have definately been through worse. It is around 84 hours since my last dose of sub. I just popped 8 caps of my stronger kratom with 4 caps of imodium. I guess the kratom must be helping because I am still semi functional. Either that or the really bad WD just hasn't hit me yet. I have a slight burning of the skin, some fatigue and a little anxiety but as soon as the kratom kicks in this is usually gone. Maybe my metabolism is really slow. As far as I know it has always been fast though. I know one time that I went through benzo withdrawals (those were HELL) and they didn't hit me until around 4 or 5 days after my last dose. I guess I will just have to wait and see. Thank you again for the input. I am not sure I know very much about this "ceiling effect" issue and sub. I guess I will have to google it.

inkpixie
21-12-2012, 15:37
Ok. So here it is about an hour since my kratom dose this morning and I am completely free of withdrawal symptoms. I had a little before I took my kratom. Yesterday was worse even with the kratom although it did help. Right now I feel virtually normal. I don't feel much off of the kratom but I don't feel any withdrawal either. What I am thinking is that when I or if I begin feeling the effects from the kratom that will mean that the bupe is totally out of my system or most of the way out. So far though, today is better than yesterday. I just hope it lasts.

Swimmingdancer
21-12-2012, 23:31
I looked it up and learned that kratom binds more to a persons delta receptors than the mu. Sub binds to the mu receptors. Hopefully this means that I am not just prolonging my withdrawals by substituting something for the sub on the same receptors. I really hope this is the case anyway.

You looked this up where? (hopefully somewhere more reliable than kratom-seller websites trying to claim that kratom is not habit-forming)

Here are some sources:


We have found that mitragynine, a major Corynanthe type indole alkaloid of this plant [kratom], elicited potent analgesic activity mainly via mu-opioid receptors.[source] (http://www.scribd.com/doc/8294729/Studies-on-the-Synthesis-and-Opioid-Agonistic-Activities-of-MitragynineRelated-Indole-Alkaloids-Discovery-of-Opioid-Agonists-Structurally-Different-)


The predominant alkaloid of kratom, mitragynine, binds mu- and kappa-opioid receptors, and has additional receptor affinities that might augment its effectiveness at mitigating opioid withdrawal. Kratom's clinical pharmacology is poorly understood.[source] (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1360-0443.2008.02209.x/abstract;jsessionid=437B230D37534D950E310ED14985E3 EC.d04t04?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false)


Mitragynine, the major alkaloid identified from Kratom, has been reported as a partial opioid agonist producing similar effects to morphine. An interesting minor alkaloid of Kratom, 7-hydroxymitragynine, has been reported to be more potent than morphine. Both Kratom alkaloids are reported to activate supraspinal mu- and delta- opioid receptors, explaining their use by chronic narcotics users to ameliorate opioid withdrawal symptoms.[source] (http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15563650701241795)


The present results suggest that mitragynine is capable of directly interacting with supraspinal mu- or delta- opioid receptor subtypes, and exhibits a suppressive action on the mechanical and thermal stimuli-induced nociceptive responses, and that the selectivity of mitragynine for the supraspinal and spinal opioid receptor subtypes differs from that of morphine in mice. Mitragynine may indirectly interact with supraspinal kappa-opioid receptors which are involved in modulation of the descending serotonergic system. It has been reported that the antinociception mediated by kappa-opioid receptor stimulation depends on a descending serotonergic system in mice.[source] (http://www.drugs-forum.com/articles/mitragynine-receptors.pdf)

So basically, there haven't been that many in-depth studies and most of them are on the primary alkaloid in kratom and not the whole plant, and they have different results and problems, but I have found nothing to suggest that kratom is primarily a delta-receptor agonist, the sources I've seen all seem to agree that it is primarily a mu-opioid agonist. If you have a reliable source that states otherwise, please post a link though :)

Anyway, delta-receptor agonists are dependence-causing too.

I stick with my post in your other thread:


They will have slightly different binding profiles and therefore likely have incomplete cross-tolerance and cross-dependence, but even if there was some precise time limit [which there is not, it's dependent on so many factors] of developing dependance to kratom it's not like you can just take kratom for less than that time limit and then stop it and feel fine. The idea is to just use as little kratom as possible and taper off of it, just like you would if using a Suboxone taper to quit heroin. I would try to use only the bare minimum of kratom needed to make your Sub withdrawals bearable and try to gradually reduce your dose.

Here are some threads to check out:
The Kratom Thread (http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/540581-The-Kratom-Thread) (includes a guide to using kratom to get off buprenorphine)
Utilising Kratom for Opiate Withdrawal (http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/493024-Utilising-Kratom-for-Opiate-Withdrawal)

painpatientNY
22-12-2012, 00:00
for me suboxone was the hardest thing ive ever came off of. i would rather go through the harsher but shorter full agonist withdrawal. i was on 32mgs a day for over 5 years and finally tapered off myself. very slowly got myself down to 1mg before stopping. i took over a month before i started feeling better. it sucked and i will never EVER get back on a long half life opioid. it is worth it though. good luck!

thelung
22-12-2012, 01:16
i personally found that the detox from Suboxone was really very easy and pretty painless. I've come off of 95mg methadone cold turkey and a little suboxone was a piece of cake compared... but i'm sure you are experiencing some discomfort. Try Kratom or Loperamide. If you can't get that maybe some benzodiazepines if they are readily available to you.

inkpixie
22-12-2012, 03:37
Thank you for the responses. There is a lot of good info that everyone has offered. Below is the link that said that kratom primarily affects the delta receptors. Look under the section "Opiate Detox" in around the middle of the page and you will see what I read. I am not certain as to how reliable this particular website is but the info is there never the less. Either way I do agree that it will be essential for me to taper off of the kratom in order for me to avoid withdrawals from it. There is no way for this to be completely painless although I can atleast try to minimize the damage. So far I am doing better than I thought I would be but it isn't over yet. Tomorrow I plan on starting the kratom taper because I am sick of being on all of this stuff. I just want my freedom from this junk and I don't want to be bat shit crazy trying to get off of the kratom that I got on to avoid going bat shit crazy from getting off of the suboxone that I got on to avoid going bat shit crazy from getting off of the pills. PHEW, IT HAS TO END SOMEWHERE!! Anyway, I will keep everyone posted on how I am tomorrow and I guess this is going to turn into a thread about detoxing from the kratom too. Wow, the shit us dope fiends get ourselves into!! Why can't I just like football or something??!!

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showwiki.php?title=Kratom

inkpixie
22-12-2012, 14:15
Good morning Everyone. Here it is, Day 5 with no sub. I woke up with a good bit of anxiety so the withdrawals are definitely still there. I popped around 5 grams of my kratom and hopefully this will knock the WD out. It has worked so far. Swimming, if you read this I want you to know that I really appreciate your post from earlier. I checked out "the kratom thread" and I liked what I have read so far. I am taking right at 20 grams of kratom daily right now broken up into 5 gram dosages. I am hoping to be able to decrease this amoumt as time goes by. I am wanting to get off of the kratom soon but the WD was too bad to decrease the dosage this morning. The most that I will take the kratom for is 2 weeks. I simply can not afford to take it longer than that. I have a small sliver of bupe left, around .50 mg or less but I am not going to take it unless I am in absolute HELL. So far I haven't made it there. Well, I think I can feel the kratom kicking in now so I need to get my butt out of the bed and fix my kids some breakfast. Later!!!

Captain.Heroin
22-12-2012, 15:09
I would try to taper with the kratom that you have, because the bupe PAWS may last a lot longer than 2 weeks. The worst of it should probably be over by then though.

Best of luck!!!

inkpixie
22-12-2012, 15:18
Wow, the kratom has really hit me hard this morning. I feel like I popped 3 lortab. It feels almost as strong as the bupe that I am trying to get off of. I guess that means that my receptors are clearing. Yay!! My anxiety waas definitely worse this morning but now I feel great after taking a 5 gram dose of the kratom. I definitely reccommend this route for bupe WD. I just wonder how long these things are going to last and if I am going to feel like hell getting off of the kratom in a week or so. I surely hope not!!

brutus
22-12-2012, 15:33
^ Eventually you will have to pay the piper...

inkpixie
22-12-2012, 16:13
The piper and I are old friends so hopefully he will give me a discount.

brutus
22-12-2012, 16:18
^ Every time I went through withdrawals, it always seemed to be worse than the previous hundreds of times beforehand.

inkpixie
22-12-2012, 23:12
Well, here I am on day 5. Approximately 117 hours since my last dose of suboxone. I have taken 20 grams of kratom today which has smashed the withdrawals. I just took a dose of tylenol 3 syrup also. I have read that some treatment centers administer small dosages of other opiates during sub withdrawals in order to try and weaken the bupe on the receptors. I will try to find the link and add it in on my next post. Tomorrow I am going to drop myself to 18 grams of kratom if I can and reduce by 2 grams everyday. I really don't want to go through withdrawals from the kratom or from the sub and kratom at the same time. This means that I better get busy starting my taper now.

DustMan
23-12-2012, 00:00
Day 19 suboxone free here. Had I known it would have been so bad I would've switched to kratom or codeine. Don't really want to waste my days, now. Good luck!

painpatientNY
23-12-2012, 06:00
when i was going through it even 1 hydrocodone would totally change how i felt. youre doing good man. keep with it. you def don't wanna waste all the time youve put in. it will be worth it in the end to be off the subs.

inkpixie
23-12-2012, 16:25
Thank you for the support!! Today is day 6 and I woke up with a little less anxiety than I did yesterday but some was still there. I took a big dose of kratom this morning (10 grams) and I am going to see how long I can go without taking anymore. My goal is to go all day or atleast half a day. I had sweat beads breaking out on my upper lip and the prickly skin WD feeling before I took the plant and that is gone now. I don't feel as fatigued or depressed so far today so hopefully it will just keep getting better and I can begin tapering off of the kratom. I picked up a shift tomorrow at work so this will get me out of the house. I took 2 weeks off so that I could get through this and still keep my job intact. I think I am functional enough to go back. I know I can tough it through atleast 1 day in order to get some extra christmas money up for my kids. People tip well during the holidays. Well, I am going to sign off for know and update later as to whether I can follow my plan and only take 18 grams of kratom today. That is a tough one for an Ol' addict like me!!

Tommyboy
23-12-2012, 18:44
The title should probably be "experiment on detoxing from kratom" since that's what you are going to end up doing. You should have waited to take those 2 weeks off from work, or just not taken any kratom (which just prolonged the withdrawal) and gotten the kick over with already so you would be ready for work.

Suboxone withdrawals had me out of commission for about 8 days (took 2 weeks before I was back at about 80% or so) so if you had taken your last dose at the start of your two weeks off you would have been feeling good enough to return to work after the two weeks off. Are you able to take more time off for when you get off of the kratom? If you type in "kratom withdrawal" into the Bluelight Google Search on the top right of the forum you will see that it's no walk in the park.

I don't mean to be a buzzkill, but you really haven't gotten around to the withdrawal yet so I wouldn't be celebrating victory over suboxone when you are taking something that you will still have to withdraw from.

painpatientNY
23-12-2012, 18:47
only 8 days tommy? i took me over a month.how long were you on it and what dose? what did you taper to?

painpatientNY
23-12-2012, 18:49
i actually saw a video on youtube about taking extremely large doses of immodium to help with opiate withdrawl. like 100 pills or something. it was by a jew with the hair curls(forget what you call them)

Tommyboy
23-12-2012, 18:52
only 8 days tommy? i took me over a month.how long were you on it and what dose? what did you taper to?

I was prescribed 32mg/day for 18 months. I usually took 16mg a day. I didn't taper really. I went from 16mg to nothing in 2 weeks time, so I think the first week I was at 8mg, then the second was like 6, 4, 4, 2, 2, 2, 1. It still took 2 days before getting bad, and days 3, 4, 5 were the worst. I didn't mean that it was over in 8 days, just that the worst was over by then. It took 2 weeks before I could go out partying with friends again, and a month before I was eating and sleeping normally.

painpatientNY
23-12-2012, 19:54
i went from 32/day down to around 1mg. i was on 32 for many years though. tapered to 1 mg over around 6 months and i felt like shit for well over a month. will never get back on a long half life opioid again.

inkpixie
23-12-2012, 22:16
Excuse me but I am tapering my kratom dose and yes, I have been through kratom withdrawal. It lasted about 4 days and is much less severe than sub withdrawal or any other opiate withdrawal. That was without tapering and with being on high doses for 3 months not 2 weeks. I would rather go through a minor 4 day withdrawal than through a much more severe 2 week withdrawal from sub. Either way, whoever reads this thread will atleast know what not to do. Have a great day!!

inkpixie
24-12-2012, 12:51
Day 7. I just woke up and I feel crappy. I took 5 grams of kratom. I was successful yesterday in tapering down to 18 grams of kratom. I am going to try and go down to 16 grams today. The 5 grams that I took was the last dose of stronger kratom that I had. Now I just have the commercial Bali. Hopefully it will still work and I won't just have to take more of it to get some relief. These withdrawals suck!!

inkpixie
26-12-2012, 21:12
Day 9. Well, I screwed up yesterday and took my little dried up sliver of sub. It was not enough to feel any kind of buzz off of because I didn't but apparently it was just enough to block the kratom from working. So here I am basically starting all over again. Atleast all of the sub is gone. So today I have been feeling like crap and I ran across a site that tells how to get loperamide to cross the BBB. Well, I tried it and I actually feel pretty good now. What I did was take 600mg of tagment. 30 minutes later I swallowed down 50mg of loperamide with a 16 oz. Glass of grapefruit juice, an 8 oz. Glass of tonic water with quinine in it and I threw in 2 gelcaps of black pepper. I do not feel any withdrawals and I feel warm all over and relaxed. I have a very minor euphoria that would probably be a lot stronger if I hadn't of taken that damn sub yesterday. The guy who recommended doing this, swears by it and says that he does it everyday to get high. Anyway, thats where I am at now. I just want to be free of the bupe and I will do darn near anything to ease the hell of getting off of it. Whatever works!!

Swimmingdancer
26-12-2012, 22:15
Aw, you aren't starting all over again :). I'm sure you've made lots of progress. Stay strong.

Be careful with the loperamide, just use enough to make your withdrawals bearable and then taper off it. There are a few people on here who ended up dependent on loperamide and found it very difficult to get off. Here's one recent example: Need serious help for this big mess ive created - loperamide withdrawal (http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/656218-Need-serious-help-for-this-big-mess-ive-created-loperamide-withdrawal)

Tommyboy
26-12-2012, 23:41
Aw, you aren't starting all over again :). I'm sure you've made lots of progress. Stay strong.

Be careful with the loperamide, just use enough to make your withdrawals bearable and then taper off it. There are a few people on here who ended up dependent on loperamide and found it very difficult to get off. Here's one recent example: Need serious help for this big mess ive created - loperamide withdrawal (http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/656218-Need-serious-help-for-this-big-mess-ive-created-loperamide-withdrawal)

Agreed.

OP, I didn't mean to come off like I was going hard on you, but you have to realize that the drugs that you are taking to get off the suboxone also cause dependence and withdrawal. The link in Swimmingdancers post shows how loperamide causes withdrawals, and this (http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/435879-Kratom-Withdrawal) thread is one of several about kratom withdrawal.

You can type in "kratom withdrawal" into the Bluelight Google Search on the top right of the forum if you want to read more about it and see if there is any information that can be helpful to you for tapering off of it.

5StarSquatHotel
27-12-2012, 11:21
i would not worry about kratom w/d -i used it daily for 3 weeks to get off subs and i had no w/d from it at all and i have been using opiates for 12 years. good luck -after week 2 it gets alot easier.