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Please Dissect

pinwheel

Bluelighter
Joined
Jun 19, 2001
Messages
1,314
Ok.
This is the most commonly referenced piece of information when someone online asks about that class of drugs commonly known as 'dissociatives.'
Only problem is...
ok, I've read William White's article. Now I want to try some k, do some nitrous, whatever. It seems ok, as I've seen friends do plenty, and people I don't know (like those guys w/ pickup trucks and tanks they fill balloons with like every 5 minutes) do a shitload more.
Are they fucked up? They take vitamin b12 as "This is Your Brain" suggested to do, but is the article for real?
Please, experienced users and researchers, tell us what you know about "This is Your Brain on Dissociatives."
What drugs have caused Olney's Lesions occurred in laboratory animals, other than MK-801?
Are there long term side effects to dissociatives other than those mentioned in "This is Your Brain"?
Thanks to all who contribute.
 
well, i looked up JW Olney's papers in ACS SciFinder 2001, which searches Medline and Chemical Abstracts. there were 400 hits.
i should note that a search for "Olney's lesions", which is the name most often used in "This is your brain on dissociatives" (TBD), got three hits. "NMDA antagonist neurotoxicity" or "NMDA antagonist excitotoxicity" are far more common names.
the general tone of all the articles seems to assume that dissociatives (i.e. NMDA antagonists) are neurotoxic, and then Olney focuses on what can be done about it.
he mentions several drugs as potential agents for preventing NMDA antagonist neurotoxicity: (assume all references are Olney, JW, et al.)
"certain anticholinergic drugs...diazepam and barbiturates..." [Science (1991) 254(5037) 1515-18]
"5HT2A agonists...LSD and related hallucinogens" [Neuropsychopharmacology (1998), 18(1), 57-62]
"clozapine and structurally related agents" [Schizophrenia Research (1996 Jul), 21(1)]
"halothane" [Neurosci. Lett. (1995 Jun 23)]
"dopamine/sigma agents (antipsychotics)"
he does not appear to mention vitamins. it's probably a good idea to *take* vitamins if you're doing K, as it may deplete some of them, as well as potentially depleting acetylcholine.
it has been suggested that the neurotoxic effects of ketamine when it is injected directly into neural tissues such as the spinal cord and subarachnoidal space is caused by the preservative, typically benzethonium chloride, and not by ketamine itself. for example, see Malinovsky et al., Anaesthiology (1993), 78(1).
overall, NMDA antagonist neurotoxicity does not seem to be treated by scientific journals in the same way as the neurotoxic effects of MDMA and methamphetamine. it seems to be treated as something that can be controlled by combining it with protective agents.
note especially that ketamine in medicine is used in doses larger than the recreational dose (though the same is NOT true of DXM). while recreational use may be more frequent, it remains that the dose used is relatively small. overall, the likelihood of an occasional ketamine user developing noticable brain damage is probably extremely small.
i'm surprised there's no MDMA equivalent to TBD. MDMA is an highly neurotoxic drug, and certainly possesses a much higher risk of brain damage than ketamine or possibly even PCP (though as White notes, PCP has effects on other systems in the brain which may increase its potential for causing damage). regarding the NMDA antagonists often used recreationally, i would think that ketamine is the safest, probably by far. it may even be safer than alcohol, which incidentally has NMDA antagonist effects (to the brain; it is certainly safer to the liver). the doses used for DXM can be troublingly large, on the order of 750-1000 mg.
btw, one thing that i don't think White mentions is that ketamine, DXM, PCP and all NMDA antagonists are highly teratogenic (cause birth defects) and must be avoided during pregnancy; that should be obvious, of course, but you know how ravers are...
anyway, it would be easier for me if you had specific questions about TBD that i could look up... i'd prefer to answer with quotes and not just summarize what i know.
 
i should address these:
What drugs have caused Olney's Lesions (to occur) in laboratory animals, other than MK-801?
as i said they don't use the term Olney's lesions (there's a growing trend to not name things in science, especially phenomena in the body, after people.. there's actually a whole set of non-personal names for all the parts of the body named after people), but more commonly "NMDA antagonist neurotoxicity" (or "excitotoxicity"). it is important not to confuse this with NMDA excitotoxicity, which is caused by the excessive amounts of NMDA released by the brain when it is deprived of oxygen, and is in fact prevented by the NMDA antagonists.
the articles i looked at did not mention any specific tests in laboratory animals, except in a few cases with ketamine. this is in contrast to MDMA toxicity studies that show quite clearly what was done and why it is thought the drug is toxic, which is helpful in determining how likely the toxicity is to apply to recreational users. unfortunately, articles where they inject a group of monkeys or rats with x amount of ketamine at y intervals then examine their brains don't exist.
this is a list of drugs that have been implicated in either causing NMDA antagonist neurotoxicity or which are known to me NMDA antagonists:
dextromethorphan (DXM)
ketamine
phencyclidine (PCP)
[other arylcyclohexylamines would probably be included, e.g. tiletamine, eticyclidine; there is some possibility these might occasionally be encountered by a user]
nitrous oxide, N2O
alcohol
three interesting ones that aren't drugs:
MPTP (the notorious neurotoxin that causes Parkinsonism in users thinking it's heroin - it has only been encountered a few times, and has more effects on the dopamine system)
aspartame
monosodium glutamate
check the last two - i'm serious! Olney suggests that aspartame may be responsible for a rise in malignant brain tumors, and discusses a lesion believed to be caused by MSG! i didn't look into it any further though.
Are there long term side effects to dissociatives other than those mentioned in "This is Your Brain"?
I didn't encounter any discussion of long term effects of dissociatives. Anything that is known is probably derived from post-incident observation of chronic, heavy PCP users.
White's opinion on long-term effects seems to be based mostly on anecdotal reports, which may be enough to show that NMDA antagonists may contribute to the symptoms, but isn't necessarily a conclusive correlation.
 
Roches- I agree that all dissociatives probably deplete choline (as I seem to get a little less high when i take DMAE, a choline producing agent found in fish and a bunch of foods. I sure feel better though...)
Also, the times I have taken piracetam when I have been on vitamin K have been especially wonderful (this taken in combination with a choline supplement)
Also, after coming down I usually take a vitamin supplement (garlic, echinacia [sp?], vitamin b3, b6, b12, vitamin c) Just remember the choline [found at General Nutrition Center in the form of DMAE] definitely helps. I guess the vitamins do a bit as well. I think I will probably take higher doses of the vitamins next time though, as my cup of orange juice this morning was ESPECIALLY nice.
ha. ha.
 
^
|
Nice job, Roches... you beat me to the topic!
I agree that ketamine is by far the least "Dangerous" of the dissociatives. I am however, still reluctant to deem it "Safe". One issue that I have yet to see addressed is the fact that many chronic K users feel as if they have "Burned out" their ability to appreciate the psychedelic effects of the drug - as if over time there developes a degredation of specific neuronal pathways. The users still "dissociates" but the experiences become harder and harder to recall after returning from the hole. This phenomena is often coupled with a decrease in basic memory skills as well.
This alarms me. I have heard theories in regards to nor-ketamine levels being responsible for the loss of memory-ability often experienced by chronic users (nor-ketamine is a metabolite of ketamine that remains in the body for up to 2 weeks after administration and may exert psychedelic effects during that time), but this theory does not explain why one's ability to recall (Or possibly even experience) the trip itself seems to erode. I was hoping Dr. Jansen would have addressed this in his book: "Ketamine: Dreams andd Realities" but alas, he has not. I wonder if this phenomena might be indicitive of NMDA receptor down regulation to ketamine or even receptor degredation.
Your thoughts and comments on this would be greatly appreciated.
------------------
"I dislike the drug you are using, but I would defend with my life your right to use it."
- Paraphrase on Voltaire
"He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man."
- Dr. Johnson
"We do not sense imagination enough to sense what we are missing."
-Jean Toomer
 
Roches said:
"note especially that ketamine in medicine is used in doses larger than the recreational dose (though the same is NOT true of DXM). while recreational use may be more frequent, it remains that the dose used is relatively small. overall, the likelihood of an occasional ketamine user developing noticable brain damage is probably extremely small"
Good point. Also, you said Olney said "dopamine/sigma agents" could be damaging. I know the other night when I did about 250mg of some high grade coke when I was on about 200mg of k I felt the most "fucked up" I had ever felt in my life, probably.
the next day followed feeling good, but not my head, and around early evening I was crying a lot (this being wonderful and awful at the same time) and by nightime all I wanted to do was fall out. (The only solace I found besides vitamin supplements was marijuana, so keep up on that dopamine research, Roches)
peace out y'all
 
Seb, you may be right about NMDA receptor degradation, but I have found the a main antidote to recalling parts of a ketamine, LSD, or mushroom trip I am taking can be helped by taking DMAE or a choline-producing agent (Lucidril seems to work well for me) in combination with piracetam.
I cannot stress this enough. Also, be sure you are high on all your vitamins.
I am familiar with k burnout (just yesterday I was in a psychedlic, satori like k-state from about 4 days of usage in which i consumed about 1 gram. This was NOT a dissociative state (like DXM) for more than about a 15-20 minute peak.
Then I snuffed a bit more [like 10mg] and began to feel oddly dissociated, more like on DXM than on k, but the psychedelic effects continued (and continue today even though all i have done is smoked some pot and eaten some meat, tomatoes, and bread [I notice colors and mood are heightened by both the herb and meat, cheese, nicotine, caffeine, sugar, etc.]
 
P.S.
I have k-holed at [intranasal] doses at around 100-125mg, but only for a small amount of time.
I only know a couple of people besides me who have used k and one says two "bumps" from a typical "bullet" (which I expect is around 100 mg) will put him into a k-hole for a couple of hours.
I'm just wondering if anyone has any suggestion to why I'm not k-holing. (And please don't tell me to IM or IV... I'll howl when I'm ready)
 
P.P.S.
By William White's "This is Your Brain" logic, everyone who has gone on an innocent little "3-day bender" after a hard work week currently has little holes in their brain.
 
William White's "section iii: Why am I telling you this (My background)" is unclear, at best, from the very start. I mean the title.
First, the title describes two very different areas of knowledge (his reasons for writing, and his 'background') which are condensed into the same section.
The title reads not:
"Why I am telling you this" but
"Why am I telling you this" (as if to explain why it is he who is breaking this "bad news" to us)
Unfortunately, he does explain, in great detail (3.5 or so paragraphs) as to why he believes drug law reform needs to occur, why he believes he has the right to publish the "DXM FAQ" and even an additional explanation, nearly an apology:
"Sometimes there's bad news. This is one of those times."
Only the first 2.5 paragraphs explain [very briefly] who White is, and what his qualifications are.
I am just wondering how the majority of people (including our great Moderator Sebastian's ghost) can extol the virtues (and I do think it has virtues) of this article without investigating its author, who appears to have finished this article in a hurry and under pressure from someone other than himself!
 
To be quite honest with you my views toward the possible neurotoxicity of dissociatives has very little to do with William White's writings.
One of the labs I did surgical research in as an undergraduate used ketamine as an anesthetic quite often, especially in Rabbits. One specific study we undertook was a hypothermia study, which was specifically designed to measure the ability of a certain developemental drug's ability to prevent brain damage. The study's protocol absolutely FORBADE us from using ketamine with these animals, as it was understood that the possibility for ketamine induced brain damage might skew our findings. That was what first made me truly stop and think!
(But thanks anyhow for the title of "Great Moderator")
smile.gif

------------------
"I dislike the drug you are using, but I would defend with my life your right to use it."
- Paraphrase on Voltaire
"He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man."
- Dr. Johnson
"We do not sense imagination enough to sense what we are missing."
-Jean Toomer
 
And THIS is just why we needed this forum...way to go guys!
------------------
If it's orange and fuzzy, it's FoXy....
"Ed Meese should be ass-fucked by an acid-crazed elk."-Dr. Hunter S. Thompson
The study of science is the study of the anatomy of God...spirituality is the psychology....
 
These statements run CONSECUTIVELY in William E. White's article, "This is Your Brain on Dissociatives"
"Nitrous oxide is brief acting, but it too may be dangerous; it is also known to damage both central and peripheral nerves by depleting vitamin B12
Some people may be more susceptible to Olney's lesions than others. There is, to my knowledge, NO way of knowing how susceptible you are."
P.S. to Seb's ghost: Would you care to share any of the information discovered in your labs at college?
 
Jesus, friends....
I did a google (www.google.com) search for 'jw olney' (as I figured I should know the man's full name and information if I was going to be engaging in a conversation about dissociatives and brain lesions) and found something interesting.
It appears Mr. White was witholding (consciously or otherwise) some information from us... http://www.alzforum.org/members/about/board/olney/69291905.html
(ok friends, no mysteries here, it's a synopsis of a study by JOHN W. OLNEY on BRAIN LESIONS in an INFANT MONKEY treated with MONOSODIUM GLUTUMATE [an NMDA antagonist])
the "olney" directory contains summaries of a few studies by JOHN W. OLNEY and one, (the one with no link!) reads:
Olney, J.W., Wozniak, D., Ishimaru, M., Farber, N.
NMDA receptor dysfunctionin Alzheimer's disease. In: Alzheimer Disease: From Molecular Biology toTherapy. Becker R, Giacobini E, Robert P (Eds), Birkhauser Boston Inc (inpress) 1996.
 
Two quotes, from WILLIAM E. WHITE's article "THIS IS YOUR BRAIN ON DISSOCIATIVES":
"Some people may be more susceptible to Olney's lesions than others. There is, to my knowledge, NO way of knowing how susceptible you are."
"People who have used dissociatives heavily have shown clear evidence of brain damage. This is not necessarily conclusive, since the people who become addicted to them might have underlying conditions (specifically, temporal lobe complex partial seizures) which could be responsible for some of the damage."
------------------
"[Section] I.2. How and Why Olney's Lesions Happen (probably)"
"[Section] I.3. Lab Critters vs Humans (or, Yes, it can happen to you!)"
"Sometimes this means speaking the truth..."
-William E. White
Draw Your Own Conclusions.
-Unknown
 
So again, in reviewing the last two quotes above, I must question Mr. White's motives for writing this piece when he did. Why wouldn't he have warned people susceptible to temporal/parietal (sp?) lobe seizures to not fuck around with dissociatives?
Instead, he covered his ass up with the broad statement:
"To my knowledge, there is NO way to know how susceptible you are"
WHY WAS HE IN SUCH A HURRY?
 
pinwheel, I think whatever sort of personal attack you're trying to carry out upon Mr. White isn't really adding anything to the discussion. Why would he be trying to HIDE something from whoever might read his work? Unless maybe YOU have some information on Mr. White's character that YOU'RE holding back, I feel that it does no good to attack his motives.
 
xylo-
I certainly believe it is good to question a person's motives when they are giving me information. That is all I am doing.
 
Guys... I think we are beating a dead horse here at this point. I am not going to lock the thread, but this is no longer a discussion of ketamine, but rather an investigation into White's motives.
Let's move on, shall we?
------------------
"I dislike the drug you are using, but I would defend with my life your right to use it."
- Paraphrase on Voltaire
"He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man."
- Dr. Johnson
"We do not sense imagination enough to sense what we are missing."
-Jean Toomer
 
pinwheel, to clarify, by dopamine/sigma agents i meant, as the original article stated, anti-psychotics ("major tranquilizers") such as haloperidol. not coke.
it's true we shouldn't be criticizing White's motives, since that constitutes an argument ad hominem; we can only criticize his data. so let's do that.
i'm turning the caps on now.
In my opinion, White's article contains two major types of statements which can reasonably be held suspect: interpretation and prediction of possible consequences based on existing research, and the use of a random sample of DXM users to examine the ill effects.
Interpretation and Questionable Synthesis
Very frequently, White synthesizes a conclusion from several sources of data independently, and therefore arrives at a conclusion supported only by logic, with no material evidence of its own. A particularly dangerous example of this is his recommendation that DXM should be taken at most at intervals of one week per plateau, ketamine once per two weeks, and so on. I e-mailed him about that once, and he replied that no user who had done DXM or K that often or less often had reported long-term negative effects. The conclusion makes sense--he's being reasonable, and knows that people won't do the drugs once every 6 months, but there is no research that supports his claim (or any research that suggests a definition for "frequent" dissociative use, afaik).
There's several other examples, such as where he warns you not to drive on DXM, and the entire section on frontal lobe lability. While it is true that these paragraphs do inform the user of a *possible* risk, no supporting evidence is given. Not driving on DXM, of course, should be obvious, though White does assume the responsibility of informing a population that might not find it so obvious. The part on frontal lobe seizures, however, is a bit less scientific. He admits that his belief that DXM may cause frontal lobe lability is based entirely on the fact that DXM can induce similar symptoms. He does not say that DXM *causes* frontal lobe lability, just that it can produce symptoms similar to it--but a casual reader could easily read the paragraph as "DXM causes seizures" and go around informing ravers of the fact while advocating that E is harmless if you close your eyes when you swallow the pill.
Another example is the assumption than yohimbine, an alpha-2 antagonist, is highly dangerous because alpha-2 agonists are neuroprotective. There may be evidence on that subject, but it seems like that one, as well as several of the other risky combinations, are based on speculation. Which is fine - I'd strongly discourage mixing two drugs based on mere speculation as well, but it shouldn't be held as concrete evidence that the combination is dangerous.
Extrapolating risk from a sample
White frequently draws on the experiences of users who have informed him of negative effects they experienced from dissociatives. While I certainly believe there is a place for anecdotal information in an area where no statistically sound sampling has taken place, I do not agree that the information should be taken as fact.
To put it simply, anecdotal evidence is emotional, not scientific. As an example, a local paper ran a story about an E overdose on the front page with the headline "NO MORE DEAD TEENS!". This was, in effect, an anecdotal report arguing that MDMA is a highly dangerous drug that frequently causes death. Such reports--taking the case of one individual, and extrapolating their experience as if it were universal, or common--are frequently used by the media and tend to make phenomena seem far more common than they actually are.
A more scientific report of that death would compare the rate of MDMA use with the rate of deaths caused by MDMA. If something unusual had happened, they would report it as unusual; if the person had died bleeding from every orifice, a scientific journal would stress that this particular MDMA death was different than the usual kind of MDMA death, rather than saying "take E and you'll die bleeding from your eyes" as one UK paper basically did. Moreover, the mainstream media will never, never report that thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of people in the city did E the same night and felt no ill effects.
White's article, in a way, is victim to this kind of argument. Sometimes he makes percent statements, e.g. "5% of regular DXM users in my sample". But this is the problem - how many people are emailing him to say they've never felt psychotic? How many of those who have felt psychotic have neglected to mention they're also occasional cocaine users (as an example)?
Essentially, White's sample could be biased towards negative effects, because people who have experience a negative effect are far more likely to inform him of that than those who have not. There is a place for his kind of sample - it's effective at suggesting what POSSIBLE side effects DXM might have - but it cannot evaluate their frequency. It's not a flaw of White's reasoning, it's an inadequacy of his resources, and a full statistically supported study should certainly be performed.
To understand the real prevalence of the risks of dissociatives as experience by users (it must be noted that there may be long-term effects which have not yet manifested, or which the user has not noticed), a random sample of users must be taken. Each user must be classified according to frequency of use. It must be determined what other drugs they use, to ensure that they are not mistaking the effects of the dissociative for the effect of another drug. Questions must be carefully worded to avoid leading questions, since many people will hear a symptom mentioned and think "hey, that's me", even though they hadn't previously noticed it to be a problem. This might be done by including effects which are known NOT to be caused by DXM - I once read a study on the effects of marijuana that had some rather funny (and some more subtle) questions intended to exclude users who claimed to have effects they didn't actually experience.
One final thing - dissociatives in TBD seem to have far more negative effects than they do in scientific articles.
I'll stop here now.. In conclusion, meanin' no disrespect. TBD can probably do far more good than any dissection or rebuttal I could come up with; don't read my statements as "dissociatives don't do X" because I said that White can't conclusively state that dissociatives do X. Correlation is not causation. Lack of conclusive evidence does not mean a phenomenon does not exist.
 
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