Differing types of speed and their differing rushes.

In the last year or two, I have encountered many forms of "speed". I am posting in the hope that someone can clear up the questions posed in what I am about to write.
I am an intravenous drug user, this is how I always use speed, and always have. Like I said before, I have seen and used many forms of speed in the last year, with very different appearences, and rushes when used. between 2000 and 2001, most of what I purchaseed was a waxy/soapy looking beige rock, which when injected, would give a taste in the throat instantly, then a heat that would rise up from the stomach, into the throat, and if I had a large dose, would be so overwhelming that I would cough, and almost spew (but never actually did). Since then, I have had many powders, and rock types. Most of the powders would give a chemical taste, or no taste, and no throat heat, and would creep up on you as opposed to the beige rock, which hit like a brick. Most rock would give the same results. Also the beige rock would give a sort of amped feeling that was a little scattering, but i loved it. The other forms give more of a clearheaded feeling, which most of my friends prefer, but i long for that scattery revving hard type feel.
The only thing like the beige rock that I have had since then was a pepsi coloured brown rock, which was sort of glassy, but real dark brown. That gave the same feeling as the beige rock, but with far smaller doses, and was even more intense, I loved it!!!...but that wasnt around for long at all, and I had that in mid-2001.
I tried what was told to me to be "ice", which was see through, and looked like tiny bits of crushed glass. I only had half a point of this (my usual speed dose is about 0.4g!) and it gave absolutely no feeling whatsoever, but kept me awake for 40 hours!
I have asked many people about "speed rushes" and some people think epsom salts are in the speed that gives the scattering rush, while some people say acetone or ketones are left in the bake. I dont understand though how these nonpsychoactive
substances could make the difference between my head being clear and focused, or really amped and scattered.
Now for the questions.
1. Why does the speed look so different all the time?
2. Why does some speed give a hot rush? (And is this speed unsafe?)
3. Why does rock speed often rush more? (I dont think its a question of purity, as powders can keep me up just as long)
4. Why is ice so clean? (and was what I had actually ice?)
I have been taking speed a long time, and I have often been described as a rev-head, yet I have many questions on speed that have remained unsatisfactorily answered for quite some time. I would feel a hell of a lot better if I had these answers. as its always safer to know what your using. So, if you can shed some light on my situation, please do!!

1. Why does the speed look so different all the time?
----------------------------------
Different methods of making it leave different amounts of impurities. Speed (amphetamine) looks different to Meth (methamphetamine) in its pure form. Most street made amphetamines have different impurities depending on how good the cook is, therefore different colors. Also there are a few different routes to makes meth (red lye/ or sudafed) which ends in different color finished products (hence impurities) REAL pure meth "should" be clear, crystal.
2. Why does some speed give a hot rush? (And is this speed unsafe?)
Well amphetamines (speed) generally for me make me feel more chargy, and dancy, chatty...
Meth amphetamines (meth/speed) make me more rushy and more euphoric.
3. Why does rock speed often rush more? (I dont think its a question of purity, as powders can keep me up just as long)
Rock speed often isn't any more pure its debatable. Rock can simply be speed/meth cut,, then repressed to sell it for more. There are many types of rock speed. some are meth, some are plain amph.
4. Why is ice so clean? (and was what I had actually ice?)
You probably haven't had ice. Ice feels a lot different to mormal speed. Doesn't realy make you feel speedy, just very awake, and clear. (ice been 4MAR/4metholamirox)
Chem

Thanks for the info. There is some things I probably should have rephrased though. When I said "hot rush" I mmeant the instant rush you get upon intravenous administration that only lasts about 10-15 seconds. Also, The "ice" I had did give a real clear head feeling, with absolutely no scatteredness at all. It had no immediate effects, just a very long lasting plateau of wakefulness and clearmindedness. (maybe it was??)
Any more info would be greatly appreciated, so if your reading this, and you have a good knowledge of amphetamines (particularly in Australia and Melbourne) please post!!!

bump

SteveElektro - usually you only need to "bump" threads after they disappear off the front page of the topic list... bumping more frequently than this won't hurry along the answers. People will respond when they have something to add.
BigTrancer

You might wanna check out this thread - My nanna can't tell an amphetamine from a methamphetamine!
It's got one hell of a lot of information on all sorts of amphetamines.

iam a long term user aswell and still don't understand what i'am using, i love the rush of that iffy stinking stuff, but i think it's doing me more harm than the clear stone gear, the crystal meth that gives no rush & keeps you up for two days is not my bag

that hot rush your feeling is probably just epson salts

I too would like to know what the chemical difference is to the 'clear stuff that gives no high yet fucks you for two days so you can't sleep and gives a long drained comedown'
Compared to the beige stuff that makes you talk a million miles a minute, dance and run around, gives a good body high and the comedown you can usually sleep off and are feeling fine after not too long.
No one has answered that yet as far as I can tell, not here or in that 'nanna' thread

Soma, I say we keep this thread up until someone answers the goddamn question. I feel so stupid having been a speed user for a very long time without an answer to what should really be a simple question.

You're looking at a black box and asking what's inside without being able to open it. Until you get some of each product qualitatively lab tested with a gas chromatograph/mass spectrometer, you're not going to find out (unless you can see molecules with your super-vision).
The only other way is by getting a second-hand account from someone who has tried BOTH kinds of substances and they have had them labtested so they know. Without a proper testing method appearing somewhere along the line though, or knowing the person who cooked it personally, you're not gonna find out.
BigTrancer

SteveElectro, I think ChEmIcal_NiGhT has answered your questions pretty well. Ice 4MAR is chemically rather different to both amphetamine and methamphetamine. 4MAR targets some receptor types which both meth and amph do, but receptor responses are different.
However, different purity meth can also produce different physiological responses. It’s not that hard to see why. If you soaked up (Not Suggested) some glucose with paint thinners (toluene + xylene), or ephedrine, or other un-reacted precursors; then sniffed or booted it, your body would produce normal responses to THESE chemicals, which are often seen as toxins. Effects can include temperature increases, flushes, dizziness, nausea, with the rush often being a sign of how quickly your body responds to the specific invader. (in the Uni lab, even the fumes from cleaning glassware with acetone then rinsing in hot water spins me out.)
Now let’s say someone knew what they were doing and produced a really clean, impurity free batch of meth. He probably produced this from something other than pseudoephedrine, or at least used a different approach to reduction.
Hydroiodic acid- most often used by meth cooks in Aus.- is usually itself prepared from industrial grade chemicals required to make the particular acid, which is then used to prepare the HI. The iodine used is probably the only thing closest to pharmaceutical grade, and that is usually intended for animal use. From various attempts at extraction, even the pseudoephedrine can be contaminated with solvents.
To top it all off, reductions using halo-acids such as HI are known to produce side reactions, and these compounds also have potential to affect the high, and particularly how “taxed” your body is following use. (Some side reaction products from the bromosafrole method - using Hydrobromic acid - of producing MDMA are known to be structurally close to MAO inhibitors, and thus could potentiate the effects of MDMA)
MDMA impurities
OK, the chemist produced the clean meth. It is a clear crystal in rock form, and appears as fine clear-white shards of glass, and finally a fine white powder when ground. Reports say ice has an almost identical look, but the courser shards appear longer, like single crystals - see fairnymphs report linked to the “My nana……thread.
From Rhodium, here is what appears to be fairly colourless meth crystal.

I believe it’s likely you had clean whiz - pure meth - or something close to it. A small amount (whatever that is for you) may have produced little initial euphoria but gave the usual quality of a long duration stimulant, which is what meth is.
That being said, it is possible you could have had 4MAR. Biscuit recently sent me a copy of a lab report from a busted lab which made amphetamine –not meth. It definitely shows this happens, so why would one not think 4MAR is also being produced by smarter cooks. One argument could be the market. As has been said, there is little euphoria, and regular meth users like any other regular drug user, prefer the old faithful. I just can’t understand why the taste of piss and smell of old socks has to be seen as a mark of good shit!!
Hope that offers some clarity. In reality it is all subjective. Set and setting influence everything, including your expected response. Test it with the Marquis, and if you can check it’s melting point of the pure crystal.
[ 05 September 2002: Message edited by: phase_dancer ]

4-MAR is very easy to make; i would suggest EASIER than meth from pseudoephedrine. The mystery reagent wouldnt arose suspicion like HI, RP etc would. I think its also something that can be produced WELL.
When most of Perth was flooded with what most people do agree was likely to be 4-MAR, i was awestruck at the quality of its appearance.
Never, ever will i see anything like that again. Crystal clear, massive shards, which when crushed produced a brilliant white, completely DRY powder, of a bitterness that is unrivalled.
AND LITTLE TO NO SMELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BUT in relation to its "easy" and "efficient" synthesis, instead of pseudoephedrine you need phenylpropanolamine (1-phenyl-1-hydroxypropan-2-amine) or PPA.
PPA is basically pseudoephedrine without the methyl group on the nitrogen, the same methyl group that makes amphetamine, methylamphetamine.
PPA is essentially a NON-event in Australia.
Impossible to get i'd suggest; definitely not in decent quantities. Its not used in medicines as in other countries, and so anyone attempting to procure watched pharmaceuticals will just stick with pseudoephedrine.
Whereas in Asia its still used i think. Hence most 4-MAR produced mainly in Asia.
Also see my take on the wonderful smells of street-produced meth in the meth,methcat,4-MAR thread just down a bit.
Ahh that picture...if only if was all like that; actually scratch that, for if it were, i guarantee u the mental asylums would be overflowing.

Ok, this thread has ben up for almost a year, and I still want an answer to one of the questions.
Does anyone know what it is in some speed samples that gives the hot feeling in the throat, shortly after injection.
It is not epsom salts, the feeling that speed cut with epsoms gives is easily distnguishable, epsom is more of a body warmth than the hot throat feeling I am describing.

One thing to note is that all the speed that gives this feeling is really good, which leads me to believe that it is perhaps a byproduct of synthesis that does this, rather than an added cut. Another possibility is that all good wizz should do this, but this seems very unlikely to me, given that I have had stuff with no hot throat feeling that keeps me up for three days. (while the speed that gives this feeling is always high quality, only approx 1/3 of high quality gear I have come across does it)


Interestingly, I have tried a few different samples of Ice here in Melbourne, and some had this hot rush and some didn't, but other than this one detail, they all gave the exact same effects and duration, indicating a similar purity.

From police reports and testing, it has become clear that pretty much all the differing 'speeds' and 'ices' are in fact all methamphetamine.
And since the feeling is not unique to any particular form of meth (eg. beige rock, ice, pastey yellow shit), I am led to believe that it is something perhaps common to differing meth synths.

A few people have suggested that this feeling comes from acetone present in the gear. This seems like a reasonable guess since acetone washing is probably employed all the time in meth synthesis, and I guess the samples that provide this rush haven't had the acetone removed properly.

Does this seem reasonable? Does anyone have any other ideas as to what it could be?

Interesting... Here is all I can think of. Courtesy of Biscuit.

Biscuit said:

IODINE is USED as a reagent in the most common illicit synthesis of meth from pseudoephedrine.
(Iodine, Red Phosphorous, and pseudoephedrine)
So it is not added intentionally after, but there already.
Anyone that has used iodine-based antiseptics knows that even minute amounts of iodine contaminate everything with a reddish-brown colour. So certainly iodine could be the main cause of this "ox blood" meth.
An extremely worrying suggestion as to what some of it could be (based upon peoples description above) is cooks not even attempting to separate the meth (the most BASIC effort at purification) they have made.
It would go like this:
Perform the reaction(without completing it of course) --> filter off the RP --> you are left with mix of meth, pseudo, iodine, salts, impurities, probably Hydroiodic acid (very poisonous) and the reaction solvent which i believe to be an alcohol such as ethanol or methanol)
If the cook simply evaporated the alcohol as much as he/she could without attempting to extract the methamphetamine via an acid-base extraction, you may be left with what could be described as a deep red/brown/black coagulated residue.
With the reaction still being strongly acidic you wouldnt have the freebase but possibly an iodide salt of methamphetamine. This could be very potent left undiluted BUT the sheer amount of impurities/poisons left in this mess is mind boggling. And yes iodine would be present.
(Another reason for the claimed potency is a mixture like i have described is very DENSE. Hence what appears to be a small amount may in actual fact have a significant milligram amount of methamphetamine in it bound up with all the rest of the crap - so the user thinks they are ingesting minute amounts when they may be ingesting far more)
Just an idea but assuming it is true and i had to choose, i'd take my chances with PMA over such "ox blood".
(Disclaimer: in no way am i suggesting consuming PMA, just giving a demonstration of how i would feel about any substance manufactured this way)

Click to expand...

From here - Ox Blood? (Some sort of speed like substance).

Well I really doubt it's left over iodine, like I said, even some of the 'ice' (clear meth shards) that I have had give the hot rush, and I highly doubt that stuff is made from Pfed reduction.
One interesting thing to note is that while ice, powders, pastes sometimes give this feeling, that old beige waxy rock that was so abundant in Melbourne around two years ago always gave that hot rush.
I really think acetone is the prime contender here, as I'm pretty sure acetone washing is a common final step in any synth.
Can anyone confirm or rule this out, or give a definitive answer as to what that rush is from?

This thread any help?

BigTrancer

^^ What's described in that thread is exactly what I'm talking about, but it doesn't have any info on what it is that gives that hot throat (which makes you cough).

From what I have had over the years, some give the aforementioned hot throat, some samples just give a chemical taste, some give a real bad taste (like something slightly rotten) and some give no strong taste, while all have the potential to be great gear. All good gear will rush though, but I am specifically talking about the affects in the throat and the taste here, not he actual amph rush.

I think pure meth doesn't give you the taste, but we often associate some taste with good gear because it is from leftover synth products, and stuff cut down by a dealer will also have lower levels of by products (and therefore less/no taste).
Goddamnit, where are some meth chefs to answer your questions when you need them...

Does anybody know of any studies showing comprehensive details regarding impurities of various speed/meth/ice samples in Australia? I think I could figure it out for myself if I had access to such info. I did a search before, but I couldn't come up with anything more than averag epurity percentages, which is useless for my purposes.

From a website discussing the difference between methadone and heroin injection:

In April of 1998, users of ampoules [of 'injectable' methadone] made by one particular manufacturer noticed a very strong taste at the back of the throat when injecting intravenously. This sickening taste was so pronounced that some people were actually sick when injecting. Others complained of head aches. Many thought the taste was due to the manufacturers using preservatives in the ampoules, as used to be the case with some diamorphine ampoules. When * phoned the manufacturers concerned, they were very helpful and explained that it wasn't preservatives but a solvent. Apparently there had been problems with the production process which meant that not all the solvent had been removed as it should have been.

Click to expand...

I assume its the same thing - often when you're given a general anaesthetic you can taste something oddly like texta vapours in your throat, just before you fall unconscious.

BigTrancer

Cheers, I think this acetone theory is looking likely.