Forget

Forget "oldschool vs newschool" - MDMA vs MDEA!?

All this talk of "new/oldschool" pills (another thread) is interesting, but am I the only one around here who's constantly bugged by the fact that virtually no-one either here or on pillreports.com seems to make any distinction between MDMA and MDEA?
I've eaten a lot of pills over the years, and would like to think that I know the difference between these two drugs. There's a shitload of information about the differences floating around on all the good reference sites (erowid, lycaeum etc etc) - EA is known for having a "more stoning" effect, lasting for a shorter time and providing far less empathy/"loved up" feelings than MDMA does. I find personally that while true MDMA will put me in an "I love EVERYTHING and life f'n ROCKS!!", _awesome_ mood, MDEA will tend to get me totally off my trolley without any substantial lift of my emotional state; in fact, it will often put me in a shitty mood.. if I find myself off my head at a party but not feeling like chatting to people/being sociable and I feel like going home, it's more than likely I've eaten an MDEA pill.
The reason for all this ranting (I bloody _hate_ MDEA!) is that for a long time, even now, there have been pills circulating that everyone seems to rave about because they're "so strong!", and are "pure MDMA!" simply because they put you on your arse for 3 hours and then wear off really quickly - these are _not_ MDMA, they're EA, dammit! A good current example would be the dirty looking blue/green BB's that have been around recently - rave reviews on pillreports, claims of them being "the real deal" MDMA pills, etc ... I took one, and after about 3 hours of total fuckedness without any true "loved up" feelings, knew that once again I'd been suckered into eating an MDEA pill.
I've gone on enough, I guess - I just thought I'd post this to test the water and see if there's anyone (please?!) out there who can really feel the difference between these two chemicals and gets shitty about the proliferation of MDEA pills like I do! Anyone...?
(Oh yeah.. and what sort of pills _do_ I like? bring back the pink dolphins of 2-3 years ago!! )
Later..

1) This has been done before, use the search engine...
2) Have you had pure, lab tested and proven MDEA? or MDMA for that matter... If not, then you can't say for certain that it was either substance, or anything else...
3) Set and setting, don't underestimate it's effects...
In summary, no matter how experienced you are, the only way to tell what is in a pill is a lab test, anything else is pure speculation...

Re this being done before - sorry! I guess as a 'greenlighter' (?!) I'm entitled to fuck up on the first post!
As for the other points - ok, I'm aware that no-one is clever enough to _know_ what's in whatever they're taking without a lab test, fair enough. I'm also well aware of the importance of set/setting to a drug experience; I just know from past experience that there seems to be a certain substance (which I assume to be MDMA) that is virtually guaranteed to make me feel fantastic, emotionally, regardless of the circumstances I take it under. There's also another certain substance (which I therefore assume to be MDEA given what I've learnt about it) which is guaranteed to make me feel wasted/mashed/ not so brilliant emotionally, again no matter what situation I take it in. I can see how some people may well enjoy this feeling if their primary aim is to "get wasted" - however, I'm after clarity/a brilliant mood lift, not full-on rushing and no ability to move for 3 hours, so it's not my thing.
Anyway.. I'll go have a search for this topic, see what else has been said about it and I'll only post again if it seems there's still more to discuss!

Ok - I've spent a while wading through a lot of similar threads in the old (now closed) message area. There's a lot of the time-honored debate over the terms "smacky", "cokey", etc etc pills, the fact that heroin is _not_ in pills, etc etc etc.
What I was getting at in my initial post was probably obscured by me going on too much about particular chemicals - I guess, to try and rephrase what I said in the first place, that I pretty much have a problem with the vast number of pills that have a "stoning" effect, ie you rush really hard but just want to sit down and not do much of anything. Whether these are genuinely MDEA pills or not is debatable without test results, agreed!
*But* - my problem is that I really don't like these more 'mashy' pills, as they don't give me the urge to engage in conversation with people or really do much of anything - if I wanted to get wasted and sit in a corner not talking to anyone I'd stay home and shoot up or smoke bucket bongs! I guess it just irks & puzzles me that not only do so many people seem to love pills like the BB's, but they also proclaim the mashed, sitting in the corner rushing feeling as being the hallmark of "real MDMA", and tend to scorn someone like myself who doesn't like the sensation!
Don't get me wrong - I'm not some idiot who thinks every speed bomb he gets is MDMA because he can dance all night on it and can't sit still, although I do prefer a "speedy" pill to one that's going to floor me for hours, as at least I can still move around the party and feel like talking to people instead of sitting in the chill room dribbling on myself!
Hm, I'm babbling - prolly aftereffects of belfast, so sorry .. I guess, to sum it up, that to me the feeling that I'm after from a good pill is one of being incredibly happy, "loved up", and most importantly _wanting_ social company/conversation etc. This is what I take pills for. However, a lot of what's around tends to simply make me feel wasted, but with little or no desire to be around other people, let alone talk to them. This is _not_ what I take pills for, and I hate it! Whether I'm completely deluded or not, I have thought for a long time that pills like this are MDEA and I have a vendetta against them!
I guess I just want to hear back from anyone else who shares this view, as I often think I'm just a weirdo when so many people go around singing the praises of pills like BB's/blue melodies etc - btw, both of these pills seemed to last for not a lot longer than 3 hours, which even without a lab test result would indicate to me that MDEA is likely to be the culprit over MA.
...and one final question - from my own experience and that of a few close friends, it seems that a rather simplistic way of detecting MDEA in pills is that it stinks of aniseed. How many people support this, how many think that the aniseed smell is the sign of MD_M_A, etc?
Ok, finished now. .. btw, mr moderator - from what I could see this topic has been done before, yeah, but with the emphasis on the idea of "smacky" pills - what I'm interested in is a discussion of "ohmyf'ngodlife_rocks_!" pills vs "phhhwoooar... I'm _waasted_" pills. Ok?
later..

LSD: i too used to speculate between EA and MA, but after a long break, i found many of the "stronger" beans could be more chargey if taken in halves. I also recalled on some of my past experiences where it was "mashy" and put it down to set and setting.
Dont forget what set actually means. Its the physical and psychological state of your mind. That includes the conscious AND SUB-conscious aspect.
In retrospect many of my mashy experiences have occured after some kind of emotional conflict(s), whether it be relationships, work, study, stress etc....
I have also found both textbook (EA & MA)effects from pills within the same batch - eg: ye olde Green Mitsis , Windmills, and Orange Rolex, so a lot can come down to set and setting.
And the testing thing. Even if a pill contains mdxx the things used to fill and bind the pill may cause a side effect.
Dont forget that a large hit of MDMA WILL put you on your arse without out a doubt, unless u you have a high tolerance.
------------------
" Role to tha EKS! "
<-H1ghR0ll3r->

Before I begin I will firstly say that I agree that set and setting play a big part in the experience, but just hear me out. Maybe I'm just too skeptical but I think this whole set and setting thing can be just a good excuse for dealers to sell you a shit pill and then when you complain about it later they say "Nah man, it was real mdma, must've been your set and setting". It's a good excuse for people to get on pill reports and drastically overrate shit pills just so they can sell them. In the past I've found that you can still be shitty, scared and anxious while rolling on a good mdma pill. I'm not denying it at all. I've felt shitty when I've been in a nightclub that's too crowded while rolling, I've felt scared if I've done something wrong while rolling, but it still felt vastly different to the "sit me on my ass feeling" that is in so many of the crappy pills that people try and claim as mdma. When other people are telling me they felt the same way I did on the same brand of pill then the evidence points to the pill and not the set and setting.
Sorry for not being very positive. I don't think I've made a happy post yet.

This has been done before - as Tarsarlan mentioned. MDMA vs MDEA
Erowid also has lots of FAQ files containing heaps of information on these compounds. www.erowid.org
Do we really need to dredge this debate up again? They're different chemicals, with different effects. Discussion of whether MDMA/MDEA was in pills long past or current pills is just speculation unless you have access to a chromatography machine. Any other debate will just come down to what physical effects each person prefers.
BigTrancer
------------------
Load universe into cannon. Aim at brain. Shoot.

Just a small note, I think we put the difference down to MDMA or MDEA too quickly. A search of the dancesafe site will show that very few pills are MDEA, the overwhelming majority of MD** pills are MDMA, followed by some MDA and a couple of MDEA.
Now, why should we be any different from the USA? I would expect we would get a similar spread of results, i.e. very few MDEA pills. I think we'd be surprised to find that very few of our pills are MDEA.
My opinion is that it mainly has to do with strength and how quickly the pill dissolves. If you get a strong MDMA pill which breaks down all at once and gives you a big hit all at once will leave you feeling like you just had an MDEA pill. if it breaks down slow and is strong it'll feel like a good MDMA pill which you can charge around all night on.
But thats just my guess, until we start sending a few pills into pilltest.com, it's all just guesswork (*hint* *hint*)

Hmm - OK - bigtrancer, I had a look at the 'MDMA vs MDEA' link to an old thread that you put up, and there's really not a whole lot there in the way of discussion/information besides some verbatim quoting of info available on erowid, so I think that perhaps "dredging up the debate" here again might well be warranted.
I have my own 'conspiracy theories' (?) regarding the presence of MDEA in pills here, the first being that MDEA seems to be a drug with far more potential to get someone "wasted" than MDMA. This is mentioned several times in the 'MDMA vs MDEA' thread - MDEA is regarded as being potentially more 'intense' than MDMA, but lacking the same empathogenic potentials. My theory is that there seem to be (I've met many of them!) a _lot_ of people in 'the scene' who are out to get as 'wasted' as possible when they take pills - a big hit of MDEA will leave them rushing off their heads, jelly-legged and hardly able to speak to people. This effect is taken as a good thing by people who _do_ just want to get as fucked as possible.
My second point could well be total bollocks, and is based simply on conversations I've had in the past with good friends who are quite intelligent and seem to know their stuff when it comes to drugs. _Apparently_ (again, I don't know this for sure!), MDEA is easier and cheaper to synthesise than MDMA - considering that it does have the potential to get people off their heads, and that a lot of people (from what I've seen) don't seem to know the difference anyway, it would seem to be a good choice for manufacturers to go for when they're making their goodies. I also heard a couple of years ago that a lot of the MDEA pills turning up in Melbourne actually come across from WA, as it's been noticed that a lot of people seem to love them - so why not manufacture it locally for maximum profits/minimum risks? This could be total bunk now, as I heard it a long time ago.. and hell, it could have been bunk then, too - it's just a theory!
Someone (E Moore?) mentioned that the 'lab results' on the american dancesafe site list the active ingredients in pills as mainly MDMA, followed by a few with MDA and perhaps 1-2% with MDEA; therefore, by that logic, MDEA should be relatively uncommon. I saw those same results a while ago, and was very surprised by the lack of MDEA results - you mentioned that "why should things be any different in Australia?". Well, following my theory, it appears that a LOT of people in this country love getting completely fucked up on MDEA, and will happily pay good money (if not more money than for clean MDMA pills) to get this effect. So.. perhaps the Australian/Melbourne market _does_ have a much higher proportion of pills that contain MDEA than the dancesafe results overseas indicate..?
I suppose there's really no way of knowing unless we all start sending samples to pilltest.com to find out for sure - I know that I am broke enough/don't go out often enough these days for this to be a realistic option for me, but I'd still be very interested to find out what the main ingredient in the BB's/blue melodies was!
I also agree with, er, fine wine, I think it was - I have had the experience many times where I buy a pill purported to be "real MDMA", end up mashed, and am then told by the dealer that it was "real MDMA", but that my reaction must have been something to do with my headspace ("set"). I know from my own experiences that a truly great (read: MDMA) pill will make me feel f'n awesome _regardless_ of how shitty/anxious/down/whatever I'm feeling when I take it - as far as I'm concerned, if I have to question, or "will in" the "happiness level" of the effect of a pill to any degree, then it's _not_ MDMA. Opinions?
------------------
Today a young man on acid realised that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration... that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively - there's no such thing as death, life is only a dream and we're the imagination of ourselves.. here's Tom with the weather!
[This message has been edited by lsd303 (edited 03 July 2001).]

Have to agree completely.
I am sure I can tell the difference between
MDMA and MDEA one I love the other I dispise
completely different set and settings on many
occasions all with same effect.
MDEA - monged, can't talk want to go home
short lived total head fuck, but tested
bluey slightly black on EZ2 test
MDMA - clean (more or less) love everything
sometimes sit on arse sometimes dance
like fuck. Test purple black on EZ2 test
Sorry i'm convinced of the above and it does
agree with the difference the two chemicals
are said to feel like.
Oh ye I think they tast different
MDMA - that bitter as beautiful taste
MDEA - not as bitter more of a wet taste
LET THE FLAMING BEGIN
------------------
"the real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new
landscapes but in having new
eyes" Marcel Proust.
methylenedioxymethamphetamine
say that while chopped.

jesus.

Hey There Party People!
I have to say, I am in complete agreement with LSD303. I've eaten a _lot_ of pills in my time, tested over 50% of them and taken an almost obsessive interest in analysing, comparing, tasting, smelling, and discussing them with other people.
My conclusion is that as LSD303 has stated, the majority of people (at least in Melbourne), love to get really wasted. MDEA is great for that. It is the strongest "rush" - or in this case stone - of any MDxx. People love it, and that's fair enough. I personally hate the stuff, but that's just me.
My feeling is that good MDMA is a lighter, happier, more social and empathic feeling, not to mention that it lasts longer. MDEA is short, intense, hard on the gut, and lacks (or at least has fewer) empathy/communal feelings. If you want to argue with that, go read the FAQS. These are proven facts.
There is also the issue of the aniseed smell/taste. I have _never_ eaten a pill with this overwhelming smell/taste, that I have considered in retrospect to be MDMA. I have however eaten pills WITHOUT the aniseed smell/taste that WERE (I think) MDEA. From what I gather, the aniseed smell is a result of chemicals not being washed properly in one of the last stages of production. So I guess the jury is still out on that one.
In terms of set and setting - yeah, that is an issue. But I agree that if its a really od pill, it hardly matters what type of mood you are in to start with - well, within reason anyway. I have eaten pills when i have been in a _REALLY_ bad mood, that have maybe not worked as well as on other occassions (yes, with the SAME pill!), but there is always a lift. Set and setting play a part, but like LSD303 says, if its "the real deal" the set and setting thing is not as drastic as people make it out to be.
As for the issue of the Dancesafe tests, I think the reason that test results differ from the US is the fact that Australia is extremely isolated, and the the demand in terms of volume would be much less - it would make sense that as being lower in the pecking order as it were, we will get the stuff that is substandard compared to countries where the routes of importation are shorter/easier.
It also stands to reason in my opinion that while people will continue to love getting wasted MDEA style, the big boys will continue to bring it in. I have also heard that EA is easier to make, with precursors or key "ingredients" that are less closely watched.
I have to say though that it would be nice if there was an entrance exam for taking pills. Just to inform people what is what. I hate being told a pill is MDMA, when it has the CLASSIC qualities of EA - IE it floors me for an hour or two and doesn't lift my mood.
There is a place for MDEA, and a place for MDMA. There is also personal preference, and I don't think there can be a resolution to the argument. Maybe we will have to settle for the fact that beauty in this case is in the stomach of the beholder. At least until someone brings out an OTC tester that distinguishes MDEA vs. MDMA (bring it on all chemists out there).
Work hard, party harder!!
WarChild

My complete feeling on the matter is summed up by the following: From experience of samples of "as- pure- as- could- hope- to- be- obtained" MDMA and MDEA, and I'll state categorically that IMHO pure MDMA is a fun party drug, pure MDEA is not. I will agree with you in as much as I would personally *prefer* MDMA to MDEA, but I wouldn't go so far as to say I *hate* MDEA. In fact, when you choose the right dose, MDEA can be a wonderful experience if you're prepared for it. But that's my own opinion.
MDMA makes you feel 'ecstacy' in all senses of the word, empathic, euphoric and there's a sense of breakthrough with early experiences. MDEA makes you feel occasionally short of breath, stoned, somewhat difficult to stand up, and quite noticeably intoxicated for long periods at high doses. If you're expecting MDMA, the effects of MDEA could be quite unnerving. It's quite easy to get "just as fucked" on high doses of MDMA and have the experience remain mostly manageable with intensely pleasurable body experiences, and amazing visuals rather than an overpowering inability to move and not being able to talk.
There's a big thread on the old Australian board called "loved up vs. fucked up" in which we discussed the point that many people go out and munch pills all night looking to get as mashed as possible without worrying about what's in them. I'm glad you're concerned for what chemicals are in the pills you're taking, and I believe education is paramount. I do agree that while so many people are out to get smashed, it's important that we stop and think about what's going on.
The subjective effects of two closely related chemicals can rarely be differentiated due to the overwhelmingly dominant effects of set and setting as we all know. Even the exact same batch of pills can affect different peopel in different ways in the same setting, or affect the same person in different ways on separate occasions. Personally I can account for a number of different effects from a single batch of so-called 'pure' MDMA powder taken in similar settings on a number of different occasions.
However... the reason I resisted dragging out this dead horse for another flogging is - what kind of answer are you looking for? You dislike MDEA, but apparently feel that many of today's pills contain MDEA. Unless we get pills lab-tested, we'll never know for sure. If you get some lab results from pilltest.com I'd love to hear what you find out. I'm just as curious as everyone else. All we can say for now on the basis of Marquis testing of the above-mentioned pills, is that many of them contain "ecstacy-like" (ie. MD-something) compounds.
BigTrancer
------------------
Load universe into cannon. Aim at brain. Shoot.

Hey..
Good to see this thread has generated some interesting discussion, even if it _is_ 'flogging a dead horse' (sorry, BT!)..!
** I'd be interested to get a link (or proper title that I can search for) for the apparent 'loved up vs fucked up' thread that you mentioned - I searched for it and haven't been able to find it anywhere.
Anyway.. as for most pills now containing 'ecstacy like compounds' - all well and good, all I know is that I'm after _ecstacy_ (ie MDMA), not some compound that is 'like' it. Who knows.. drinking a slab of VB with the right 'set and setting' could well be 'ecstacy like', but I doubt it and don't really want to try!
Thanks all for the replies.. keep them coming and, as warchild said, let's try and convince some chemist out there to come up with a tester that distinguishes _between_ the various MDxx drugs rather than just identifying that one of them is there!
later..
------------------
Today a young man on acid realised that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration... that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively - there's no such thing as death, life is only a dream and we're the imagination of ourselves.. here's Tom with the weather!

Let's see now. If I was going to export some pills from Europe I wonder where I'd send them. Would I send them to the USA which has a population of over 200 million or would I send them to Australia which has a population of about one tenth of that? Now for the same cost of exporting over vast distances it doesn't take much mathematics to work out where I'm going to send them. Seriously people we are not the USA and our range of pills is going to be completely different.
There seems to be some confusion here. Some of you have been trying to tell me that a large dose of mdma will put you on your ass. I aggree. The issue I have is that a large dose of mdma should also give me some empathy. Now you guys are really going to kill me here but (back to the hqs and other crappy pills that I've had the misfortune of buying) I only take my pills one at a time so it's not like I'm out to fuck myself up with a huge dose. Please do not tell me that the reason I was put on my ass was because of a high dose of mdma. It's simply not true!
I agree with lsd303 that perhaps people in this country have a generally low standard. Possibly they like the wasted feeling much more than the empathy feeling. Maybe they are prepared to accept any old crap as mdma. Why do people (you see it all the time on pill reports) keep rating pills simply by how knocked about they were? This is not the purpose of pills, but I'm sure I don't need to tell everyone here that!
Seems like the bbs (I haven't tried one) are similar to the current hqs by all reports. Funny that becuase I heard a rumour that they both come out of Asia. This may or may not be true but we can certainly see some close links between the quality of the two pills.
So what is it people? Why are so many of you so facinated by getting smashed instead of loved up? I've had my run with alcohol. If I wanted to get smashed I'd go and get pissed because firstly it's cheaper and secondly it's leagal. Why do I risk being labeled by society as a criminal? I don't do it simply so I can be wasted. It's way too much of a risk when there are legal ways to do it. I'm in it for the empathy along with lsd303, scotty and WarChild. Where does everyone else stand? Everyone is entitled to their personal preference but to me it just seems pointless to settle for anything less than "the real deal".
Either way, whatever you like best, do not tell me that I cannot tell the difference between something that is mdma and something that is not mdma. Set and setting only has a limmited (although I'll admit a large) part to play. Set and setting will certainly not inhibit my ability to tell the difference between real mdma and somethithing else. I can't tell the difference between mdea, mda, and various other forms of mdxx whatever they may be but mdma is the only chemical in the world that has the properties that it has (you all know that and I'm sorry if I sound patronising), it feels vastly different to all other chemicals yet experimented with, and therefore it should be easily distinguished from something that is not mdma by a simple taste test.
If I'm wrong please tell me. I'm only a greenlighter and I'm sure that a lot of you here have been pilling for a lot longer than I have. I failed the taste test between pepsi and coca cola and I can't tell what flavour of spritz drink I'm having unless I look at the bottle. My argument is that surely if you're not getting any empathy and you've taken all the proper breaks and are sober from any other drugs before you begin your roll then you should be able to tell whether what you are having is mdma or something else.
[This message has been edited by Fine wine (edited 03 July 2001).]

Sorry I posted my comment just then before refreshing the thread. Therefore I missed the two posts that appear before it. I think you may have answered some of my questions for me BigTrancer. Sorry if this is re-hashing an old thread. I too have had trouble finding some things with the search button.
I'm still not entirley convinced though that hqs and bbs conatin quality mdma and I still believe that despite set and setting you should still be able to tell the difference between real and fake pills. I'm talking about a fake pill being one that contains little or no mdma. This leads me to my final point, why do so many of you simply like the trashed feeling? Well I'm off to check out the loved up vs. fucked up post to see why!
[This message has been edited by Fine wine (edited 03 July 2001).]

lsd303 Im with u all the way... honestly i cant see how people can love MDEA like pills sooo much when it has the effects it has !
This just encourages chemists to make more of these pills and in the mean time we r missing out on the ohmyfodthisisfukinawsome stuff !... but hey ive had this debate with my own gf, she loves BB and i hate them, so the second time she had them she took a BB and i just had speed....
anyways at work we got a chromatograph analyser but theres always someone there so i cant analyse some of our pills... maybe one day...

They're both good in the right place

On the topic of geographic isolation - sure we might be isolated from the rest of the world, and a quick browse of Pillreports will confirm that, but there's MDMA pills being made in australia for our market.
Now, as for being able to distinguish MDMA and MDEA, I think maybe 5% of people on here could do that, myself excluded. There's just not enough MDEA pills floating around. Remember, with illegal drugs there's nowhere near the quality control excercised during the manufacturing process as would be the case with say, pharmaceutical grade drugs. There's always going to be variances between different pills that all claim to be "MDMA", even some variance within the same batch. This, along with the usual set & setting arguments, might go some way to explaining how differently you can feel from supposedly-MDMA pills?
Luvd up vs fucked up: there's a time and a place for everything. Personally I prefer loved up most of the time. Occasionally though, although it might sound really stupid now, it's interesting to just get a bit mashy and enjoy yourself in a different way (mainly dominated by stupidity, but sometimes that can be fun).
As for someone talking about chemists coming up with a reliable on-the-spot tester for highlighting the difference between the various MDxx compounds: try this link. It's in evaluation but looks pretty interesting.

Here it is:
Loved Up vs. Fucked Up
Now, the first thing you'll notice is that the majority of the post is comparing MDxx pills to speed-based pills. I think that's as far as pills can be compared. IMHO to get into a debate about MD-this, or MD-that, within pills, is fruitless and you'd be better sticking to pure powders if you can get them.
However, you'll probably see that the terms used in the debate of MDxx-based vs speed-based pills are the same as what's being said above. It all comes back to whether people prefer to be Loved Up, or Fucked Up. The major relevant point to my mind, in light of everything that's been said in this thread is:
If you're a connoisseur of chemicals, then buy pure chemicals. Do not trust the pillmakers to press you a decent dose of clean gear. They never will.
If you want MDMA - buy the best MDMA powder you can find, test it, and consume an appropriate dose.
If you want speed - buy the best rock speed you can find, test it, and consume an appropriate dose.
If you want an unknown mixture - buy a pill, test it (at least that way you'll get an idea of what to expect, and perhaps avoid taking something dangerous), and then if you have never taken that kind of pill before, have it by halves.
It's that easy.
BigTrancer
------------------
Load universe into cannon. Aim at brain. Shoot.