How Often Can You Roll Before You Experience Neurotoxicity?

I'm new to Bluelight, as well as MDMA. I took my first pill around three weeks ago, and ever since I have been researching the possible neurotoxic effects of MDMA. Taking a drug without properly researching it was rash, but I was reassured MDMA was safe.
Now, there have been tests proving that MDMA is neurotoxic to animals, at high doses/used frequently. There have also been a number of tests that, while although not perfectly performed, suggest and hint that frequent and high dosing of MDMA can cause possibly reversible damage to serotonin receptors, resulting in memory impairment and depression, among others.
I was wondering, what would be a responsible, safe, pattern of use. I was thinking a four-time-per-year maximum, and really don't see myself ever doing it more than fifteen times in my life. Is this a safe amount?
I know I may sound paranoid or alarmist to some, but I'm willing to risk that for the safety of my brain in the long-run.

i did it four times in a week so i think four times a year should be fine lol.

Whoever reassured you that ecstasy is safe is misinformed. Any ecstasy you purchase is often made clandestine settings, without proper equipment and/or knowledgeable chemists. Moreover, as you mentioned, even the purest MDMA has been shown to be neurotoxic in rat models numerous times over when administered repeatedly.
As far as a direct answer to your question, there is none. It is safe to assume, however, that you are not doing your brain good by taking E more than once in while (say breaks of 2-4 months, depending on your body's recuperative ability). Substances as powerful as E have deleterious, long term consequences on the mind and body if not taken with great care. Moderation, as so often is the case, is key.
Most of the research that shows ecstasy is a neurotoxin when taken with any regularity or in a high dosage is correct. If you wolf down 3 rolls, even if its your first time, then chances are that you are going to do some damage to your circuitry that will take some time to fix. Neurological damage can occur equally in an acute scenario where too much of the chemical is present in a short amount of time or in a chronic scenario where cells are bombarded over long periods of time and burn out slowly. Examples of a reaction to acute neurotoxicity would be short term depression/anxiety following a roll or lapses in memory. Neurotoxicity that develops after chronic, repeated use is characterized by long term depression, memory issues/cognitive deficits that persist long after termination of use.
Some people swear that they suffer no ill effects from habitual use over the course of a few years, though I am often hard pressed to believe that due to my own experiences. If you are not careful, just like with any other drug of comparable potency, it will burn you good and leave you with mental scars. Often those scars manifest themselves in the form of depression, cognitive impairments, ect. but are manageable in most instances. Please don't get me wrong, I have a profound appreciation for E but you must be aware (which it sounds like you are) that it has its inherent pitfalls and must be used with caution. Hope this helps and best of luck to you!

Kingofthefungus said:

I was wondering, what would be a responsible, safe, pattern of use. I was thinking a four-time-per-year maximum, and really don't see myself ever doing it more than fifteen times in my life. Is this a safe amount?
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That was the conclusion I came to as well after I first used it. Unfortunately like many i ended up breaking my own rules. I'd say don't be surprised if it happens to you but I was surprised it happened to me. I'd like to think I learned my lesson, but also want to have as many good roll in my life as I can. It's a balancing act.

15 rolls in your life? Something tells me that one might get adjusted, but best of luck!!

^^^ agreed OP we all said that most the time it doesn't end up like that

It's really not that difficult to limit yourself to 4 times a year. Just don't make your life revolve around MDMA, since it's easy to be drawn in by how incredible it feels. Remind yourself that breaks are necessary to maintain the magic and protect your brain, and that the longer you wait the better your next roll will be.

Moreover, as you mentioned, even the purest MDMA has been shown to be neurotoxic in rat models numerous times over when administered repeatedly.

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I havent checked in the MDMA neurotoxicity debate lately, but as i recall it there was contention as to if it really occurred at all at recreational levels, or if changes in serotonin functions could all be due to receptor downregulation? Of course the poor rats that they shoot up with huge doses get their brains fried, but how much of that can be extrapolated to human recreational users?

If small but repetitive doses of MDMA really are neurotoxic, shouldnt it stand out more clearly in test results measuring cognitive functions, etc? After all, we are a LOT of people with that usage pattern.

Of course 4 times a year, or once every 2 months, is good advice. Not least if you want to keep the "novelty" or "magic" for a long time. Im just asking for the sake of accuracy.

I am not up to speed on the current research either but I do know that a 2008 study involving low doses of MDMA to humans (50-75mg) proved to be safe. As we all know, however, recreational users take many times (2x4 at least) over that dose range and often with semi-regularity. I am saying that through personal experience with persistent depression and prolonged cognitive deficits following heavy or prolonged use that there is most definitely a potential to fry out brain cells with this drug; it happens easier than most would think. Moreover, there are studies out there which do show that prolonged MDMA use in humans does indeed produce cognitive deficits and memory impairment. While there is no clear cut evidence that directly links MDMA use to neurotoxicity in humans, there has to be consideration given to the fact that human trials are still in their infancy with this drug as well. I suppose time will ultimately give us a definitive answer on this, until then the debate rages on. Hope this reply helps and thanks for the feedback. Btw, I do believe in moderation, both in frequency and dose, ecstasy is a relatively safe drug and has wonderful therapeutic potential.

omfgiloveit said:

i did it four times in a week so i think four times a year should be fine lol.

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That does not justify anything, sorry.

It is extremely dangerous to your body and mind to roll four times a week. You're just asking to "lose the magic" and have countless post-roll problems, such as anxiety and depression.

just because you dont have any cognitive difficulty doesn't mean its not neurotoxic. Sorry bro, rolling at all is neurotoxic. Wont negatively affect you at all if you just be moderate though. MDMA is neurotoxic, Methamphetamine is neurotoxic..most stims are neurotoxic period bro. PERMANENT neurotoxicity wont occur until you get ridiculous, but you probably are killing a few neurons (that will grow back fine) each time, and depleting some serotonin (like hao speed and coke deplete dopamine). Dont worry about neurotoxicity, just dont roll moar than once a monf, ok? Yeah..it hasn't been proven to be neurotoxic in humans by anyone credible, but the idea that MDMA isn't neurotoxic to a degree is a completely retarded concept, seemingly invented by etards to justify rollign every week. Meth, amphetamine and coke are also neurotoxic, but do they tend to produce brain damage? Not until you get to using too much. Same with MDMA. and if amphetamine is neurotoxic (believe there is a debate there too..but thats much moar believable) and methamphetamine is a known neurotoxin (yet many use it without any problem, just like many people use MDMA without problem.). Alcohol causes brain damage too bro..just dont worry about neurotoxicity. Dont roll often and you wont have any problems.

but the idea that MDMA isn't neurotoxic to a degree is a completely retarded concept, seemingly invented by etards to justify rollign every week.

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Hm, i dont know about that. Its not an impossibility that MDMA in moderate doses actually isnt neurotoxic, or not to any significant degree anyway. Receptor downregulation could easily explain the effects reported by many users of tolerance, loss of "magic" and even depression. To me that always seemed an equally plausible explanation. The fact that doctors actually prescribe methamphetamine, a more neurotoxic substance than MDMA to children (in small doses) indicate that neurotoxicity need not be the big issue with these substances, when used responsibly.

Of course its always better to stay safe than be sorry later. You dont need to do drugs every weekend anyway. But i would not throw around stuff like "fries your braincells" near depressed people. Depression is a bitch anyway without having to consider the possibility that you have permanently mucked up your brain chemistry. Which probably isnt the case anyway. Most MDMA-related (if you can tell what damage is due to what drug usage) issues seem to reverse over time.

to begin with, just because methamphetamine CAN be prescribed doesnt mean it is. I can guarantee anyone who is RXd desoxyn has asked for it, and tried adderall, ritalin, dexedrine, etc. first. Methamphetamine is just about NEVER prescribed and id be willing to bet most of the RXs for it are for narcolepsy, not ADD. I mean i like MDMA, and i would use it moar often (if it was more available..grr..) but its not harmless in any sense of the word. Methamphetamine is a neurotoxin (to dopamine receptors, if i remember right) for the same reason MDMA would be toxic to serotonin receptors:the dual release of (relatively) large amounts of dopamine and serotonin simultaneously. I mean no holes in your brain, btu brain damage/change from excessive use isnt too hard to believe in my mind. The problem is these studies seem to say either OMG HOLES MASSIVE BRAIN DAMAGE OMG BAD BAD BAD or HARMLESS EAT ALL THE XTC YOU WANT OMNOMNOM ITS FINE!. Btw..rx stims can be rx'd to small kids..but they arent most of the time. id say most rxs for stims (i have one for dexedrine myself) are for ages 7-16ish..doctors arent RETARDED, they know its still speed, rx or not..

Its good that its not prescribed often, i shudder to think of all the kids and adults getting prescribed strong stimulants as a matter of routine these days. Methamphetamine as i recall is proven to be neurotoxic both to the dopamine and serotonine system. But i have to assume that, since its prescribed at all, the damage is not significant, at the recommended dosages.

But im not sure the mechanism of toxicity is as you describe it: due to a huge release of the neurotransmitter. That would explain receptor downregulation though. Did they find the mechanism behind the belived MDMA neurotoxicity? I recall theories of hydrogen peroxide entering the synapse, or free radicals increase in the brain.

I certainly dont believe that MDMA is harmless, nor any drug. But the harm of neurotoxicity might be overstated, in my view. And other harms might be understated. The biggest single risk to users are the crappy drug cocktails that get passed as ecstasy these days.

I thought meth isnt neurotoxic until higher doses. I thought it was from dopamine going into serotonin receptors and vice-versa, due to the dual release of dopamine/serotonin. That would explain how nichols has discovered nonneurotoxic strong serotonin releasers, that release as much serotonin as MDMA but feel much different (apparently). If i remember right MDA is known to be neurotoxic anyway..I would doubt 30mg or so methamphetamine per day would cause any toxicity, thats nothing compared to what methheads do.

There's an old saying that goes something like:

The difference between a poison and a medicine is the dosage.

once a month is what i go by but even think its way too much

i've rolled over 100 times less then in a 1 year period (im only 17, first pill at 16)

and i can tell theres been effect on my memory/speech .

thats all i have to say...

Why are people saying that IT IS neurotoxic always... kind of ridiculous to say that. Neurotoxicity seems to vary from person to person, this is what I have read and believe.

It's much easier for your body to keep itself cool if the air temperature is low. In one experiment, rats placed in a cool room suffered no neurotoxicity from a dose of MDMA that extensively damaged the brains of rats in a warm room. If you're going to be out dancing, pick a club that's cool and has good air flow, and regularly take short breaks to cool off and assess how you're doing.


You should try getting your serotonin levels back to normal.. Great things to get back to

Vitamin c, and vitamin e and any antioxidant helps with the neurotoxicity of mdma. Because MDMA neurotoxicity ultimately happens through oxidation, antioxidants may be able to provide some additional safety margin. An appropriate dose may be 2-4 capsules or tablets of each around the same time that you dose. In one mouse experiment, mice fed a severely vitamin E deficient diet suffered severe neurotoxicity from a dose of MDMA that didn't noticeably harm mice on a normal (plenty of vitamin E) diet.

So I think some reasons some suffer more from neurotoxicity is because 1. they don't eat healthy
2. They got way too hot while rolling and didn't get proper hydration, or didn't let themselves cool off.
3. Probably most likely that happens is taking too much. People take double, or 4 pills are really not thinking wisely. The fact that there's so much of the drug in itself can be neurotoxic.

more facts this site has good information: http://www.dancesafe.org/documents/druginfo/neurotoxicity.php

I also heard that asprin/ 5htp has been used to help neurtoxicity.. 5htp cuz increases serotonin, but I don't know how asprin really works...

ABCDFG I Ate The E said:

once a month is what i go by but even think its way too much

i've rolled over 100 times less then in a 1 year period (im only 17, first pill at 16)

and i can tell theres been effect on my memory/speech .

thats all i have to say...

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what? you rolled once a but rolled over 100 times... in less than one year, how is that possible? If you mean you took 100 pills only rolling once a month, well no wonder you have speech/ memory problems.

euphoric. Heat has nothing to do with neurotoxicity. The release of serotonin and dopamine is what in all likelyhood causes the neurotoxicity we all deep down acknowlege the existence of.

Actually heat has shown to be a major risk factor for MDMA neurotoxicity in lab tests. One of the best harm reduction advices we can give is not overheating when dancing. Get something to drink regularly, wash your face with cold water (feels great!), take breaks...

And if the free radical theory is correct, antioxidants are a good idea.