[AUS] Survey on OTC codeine use

thought some of you would be interested in participating in this. they also want to do further in-depth interviews with people, i think it's $30 payment for your time.


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Have you recently used over the counter codeine such as Mersyndol, Nurofen Plus, Panafen Plus, Panadeine or other strong pain relievers? You are invited to take part in a research project examining the use of pain-killers/analgesics containing codeine, mental health and other problems.

This study will examine the use of 'over the counter' (OTC) codeine containing analgesics (e.g. Mersyndol, Panadeine, Nurofen Plus) and examine factors that could be associated with developing problems with codeine.

Please circulate this email link widely as we would like as many people as possible to complete the survey to develop a better understanding of the links between codeine use and why some people experience harm from these drugs.


To complete the survey please click on:
http://www.turningpoint.org.au/research/research_codeine.htm

Link no longer operational - write up in process

Aus Drug => Drug Studies

I did the survey, but there was no where to state I extract the codeine from OTC products, so they will think I'm eating 50 tablets a day. Should I email them maybe??

yeh was wondering the same myself mate

I have just passed the message onto the researchers running this study so they are aware of codeine extraction and how the questions/responses may be interpreted with that in mind

dnaenterprises1@ya said:

I did the survey, but there was no where to state I extract the codeine from OTC products, so they will think I'm eating 50 tablets a day. Should I email them maybe??

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Hey I had a chat to the researchers and they are keen to do one-on-one interviews with folks like yourself; either in person in Melbourne or over the phone for rural Victoria. PM me if you are interested.

dnaenterprises1@ya said:

I did the survey, but there was no where to state I extract the codeine from OTC products, so they will think I'm eating 50 tablets a day. Should I email them maybe??

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Yeah I filled the survey out but didn't send it in for the same reason, wasn't sure if they'd interpret that as taking 30 tablets at a time. Will resubmit it now we've got confirmation.

Kind of interesting that there seems to be a fair bit of public awareness about codeine. Hopefully it doesn't snowball into some kind of moral panic and end up scheduled or anything. I wouldn't care too much personally, it's something I can live without, but I think we've seen enough substances banned unnecessarily.

Crankinit said:

Hopefully it doesn't snowball into some kind of moral panic and end up scheduled or anything. I wouldn't care too much personally, it's something I can live without, but I think we've seen enough substances banned unnecessarily.

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That's the only reason why I unable to take part in survey. I use alot of the stuff, sometimes 140pills in a session (about 25 per dose, each hour untill im where i want to be). I quite enjoy it and atm any publicity is bad publicity.

Although if it got banned, meh. Il survive.

static_mind said:

That's the only reason why I unable to take part in survey. I use alot of the stuff, sometimes 140pills in a session (about 25 per dose, each hour untill im where i want to be). I quite enjoy it and atm any publicity is bad publicity.

Although if it got banned, meh. Il survive.

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Damn, that's a lot of codeine. You must be on first name basis with half the pharmacists in your suburb

Yeah, I'm always happy to be part of studies because I have a lot of faith in the science community, but I do hope it doesn't lead to a rescheduling of codeine or anything draconian like that. I LOVE my codeine.

dnaenterprises1@ya said:

...but I do hope it doesn't lead to a rescheduling of codeine or anything draconian like that. I LOVE my codeine.

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^^ this possibility was deterring me from doing the survey. From the Turning Point web site:

The study aims to better understand the development of dependence on these drugs to inform services and prevent harm related to these products. By studying and evaluating how misuse of OTC codeine containing pain-killers occurs, we have the potential to improve health outcomes for people using these products.

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If you wanted to reduce harm related to codeine products one possible method might be to do away with these paracetamol/ibuprofen + codeine concoctions and give mainstream users straight codeine?

I'm glad you did the survey in the end.

There is already other information sources on codeine use in Australia that govt agencies have access to - eg. hospitalisation, deaths, overdose ambulance attendances and treatment services where codeine is a drug discussed. However these data sets are are collected for other reasons (administrative) and so they don't give as much detail as a survey like this will.

I think it is important to know that governments/institutions already have the information that people use this drug for nonmedical purposes. A survey like this will do as you've quoted in their aims - it has the potential to improve health outcomes and work out what services people need (if they need any).

I think that straight codeine would likely result in more ODs/harms generally, even though for those who extract it and understood dosing, it would probably be less harmful. that's my guess anyway.

Yes, by all means email them, so they can ban OTC codeine, please do .

dnaenterprises1@ya said:

I did the survey, but there was no where to state I extract the codeine from OTC products, so they will think I'm eating 50 tablets a day. Should I email them maybe??

Click to expand...

do they do these researches in the intrest of helping people or stopping people having a bit of fun? i use codine cuz heroin is expensive and harder to get if i could walk into a pharmacy and get a pack of heroin pills then i would rather than codine..why cant the government see the impact that alcohol has on people and thier lives.. yet they build dirty great big houses for people to go drink in ..eg pubs im even allowed to brew it at home, maybe my post is dumb, maybe i dont know what im talking about, ..but my opinon is that its unfair to have one drug legal..alcohol and the rest not...soon enough we will see codine being sold as a prescription only med no matter what the strength...

My colleague who is running this survey tells me she is going to close data collection at the end of June. So if you are interested in participating, now is the time.

As for all your concerns - I understand why people have a distrust of authority and how people could equate all 'official' people into a big lump of 'not-to-be-trusted' people. In reality it's a lot more complex than that.

If you are concerned about how a survey or research project could be used or whether the organisation running it can be trusted, do some research and ask some questions (rather than making assumptions or treating all organisations the same).

eg. read about Turning Point's mission here

What I know my colleague is interested in is finding out about codeine use in Australia (something that has not been documented much yet) - in all its forms, not just harmful dependent use, but also low-risk occasional use. So far most of what we know about codeine use comes from treatment populations - and Suzi and I know this is only one side of the story. So she put together this survey to see what other kinds of patterns of use are out there.

For all you know, this survey may just show that most use is occasional and useful and be used to argue *against* making all codeine preparations prescription only! The best research does not presume its findings beforehand %)

lol ok perhaps i am assuming things but to me (and this is my opinion only) reports like this are handed to the relevant government depts and they see it (codine) being used recreationally and they do thier very best to stop it as they dont want raving drug addicts roaming the streets.. but your right for all i know it could be used to aruge against making all preps prescription only i doubt it tho..governments (i belive) would rather us just drink our selves stupid .. (no im not a big fan of alcohol)lol... appologies if i sound silly tronica but like i said b4 maybe i just dont know what im talking about

elz, it's not silly at all. Your view is pretty common and is based on your experience of how people treat drug users generally. My point is that this research won't *necessarily* be used to restrict codeine.

Reports are written and *all* interesting people (eg. health workers, social workers, policy makers, pharmacists, pharmaceutical drug manufacturers, law enforcement and drug users themselves) will/should have access to them.

Changes in drug policy/practice that result from such reports will be combination of the actual findings and how they are written - and then, the current context and opinions/influence of all of those folks mentioned above.

Believe it or not, there have been some research reports that have assisted law reform on drugs. eg. reform of West Australian cannabis laws is one example. I know there are less of those examples and perhaps more the other way, and I think this is more about the political context than from lack of trying (though I'm sure we could try harder!).

My opinion is that as researchers, we have to be open to designing research and reporting both the harms and the beneficial aspects if we hope to remain credible to all of our stakeholders as listed above.

I'm sorry but I don't trust how this survey will probably by used after reading this quote especially after you said that law makers will have access to it.

The study aims to better understand the development of dependence on these drugs to inform services and prevent harm related to these products. By studying and evaluating how misuse of OTC codeine containing pain-killers occurs, we have the potential to improve health outcomes for people using these products.

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I am reminded how it maybe a similar fashion to the NDARC survey on ecstasy users I did a few years back. It gets promoted on Bluelight then next thing you know the a bunch of BL'ers are filling out the survey sayin all the RC's they have been using. The surveyer told me that the year I did it that all these psychedelic drugs are so popular this year compared to just ecstasy the years before. Great then next thing you know there was TGA meetings and and they there it was recommend specifically list 2C-I and a bunch of others as banned in the state. Now I maybe jumping to conclusions the serveys may not have contribited to these TGA
mettings but the info NDARC collects is paid for by the government and available to to the government so... again more fuel for the fire they they can use to ban stuff.


So relating to this specific survey how does this organisation propose to prevent the harm related to these products after they find out dependence/abuse which would probably be classified as anyone who it doing a codeine extraction or taking more than the recommended dosage of these pills containing codeine to get high? I doubt they will be posting on their website how to do the codeine extraction even though this would be the best way to to avoid hospitalisations of those people who just eat a whole pack of ibuprofen + codeine pills or worse those who die from too many paracetamol + codeine pills from liver failure. My point is I think their input into "harm reduction" would be suggest a ban the sale of OTC codeine pills or inform policy makers who can. Sorry If I have a very sceptical attitude on this and I understand you say that they all already know the info is out there but if so do we really need to more fuel for their fire with anther survey that publishes what they would have to call abuse of codeine (codeine extraction). Personally I'm not a huge fan of codeine, as the enzyme reaction or whatever maxes out before you get as high as would like. However I would still rather be $30 less in my pocket and codeine pills be available OTC for a while longer. Don't get me wrong I am saddened by any overdose and hospitalisation from OTC pills of any kind and we do need education on this. Personally I had a close friend who went crazy with a large amount of just Advil tablets. I believe though that the more useful drugs we ban and make very difficult or to obtain from our society in the war on drugs the more likely it is people will resort to more harmful, toxic or even straight out poisonous ones. There is a need that many people (or possibly all people have) in society have for altered states of consciousness that I would imagine has been commonplace for thousands of years. In older tribal societies psychoactive drugs were a valid and respected method allowed for achieving this. In our generation our governments are the most suppressive of this than probably any before us. We can't expect governments to bring about change. They are their to serve their own interests. It's many people who bring about change and the government then follows the people.

(warning, I'm about to post issues much wider than this thread...)

Ekstasis-//7, thank you for your thoughtful post.

Your sentiments, and many others from this thread and others in this forum (including staticmind's contributions), are right at the heart of my work.

Sorry If I have a very sceptical attitude on this and I understand you say that they all already know the info is out there but if so do we really need to more fuel for their fire with anther survey that publishes what they would have to call abuse of codeine (codeine extraction).

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I want to correct what I said or the sentiments I expressed earlier. Researchers and government and law enforcement don't know everything that is out there, otherwise we wouldn't bother doing any more research. Research projects are designed to find out new knowledge.

The point I was trying to make earlier was that many of the same people who feel that participating in surveys/research may provide evidence that is used against them - also freely discuss the same topics on this and other forums. The difference is really about format and delivery, but this is important. It takes skill/experience to find and collate online drug discussion. It takes less skill/experience to read a report. So, I see that changing the context of this information is important and could change the way the information influences policies.

We can't expect governments to bring about change. They are their to serve their own interests. It's many people who bring about change and the government then follows the people.

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I can see your point, especially when it comes to drugs, but this does not always hold up. In other parts of the world, governments have brought about positive change (eg. Portugal's decriminalisation of drug use).

The other thing that strikes me about this quote is that there is a black and white division between the 'people' and the 'government'. I imagine you would classify a researcher as an arm of the government then? Even though we actually aren't employed by them? Is even the act of conducting research inherently against 'the people'? What about the research by MAPS about treatment using psychedelics? What about harm reduction based research? Is that of the government or the people?

I ask myself, what is the point of having/forging/continuing a career in drug use research if one of the most important stakeholder groups, drug users themselves, are not heard... or worse, are exploited by research?

Rather than hang up my shoes and go home... my thoughts are that we researchers need to rethink our relationships with our stakeholder groups... and that the people most influenced by our research, drug users, need to have much more prominence in decisions about what is researched.

Whether there is the will to do this, and if so, how we go about it - is the next step.

I'm not a regular user at all.

Every so often I'll do an extraction for a bit of fun but that's all, Survey completed anyway.

I'm glad to see a survey on OTC codeine.
It's something widely spoken on BL of but i'm sure many people use it recreationally or more than in the general public and I doubt they discuss the safe practices of doing so amongst friends/peer groups/associates etc.

We need time for perceptions to change on who the public and government see as drug users and how they perceive them.
Too often, people forget that many regular users hold down jobs, raise families manage companies, run their own businesses and could even be working in the government

So yes it's a time sensitive issue in the way this sort of information is handled and received.

Good luck with the research.