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'Smart drugs' - Some questions.

satricion

Bluelighter
Joined
Oct 11, 2003
Messages
1,813
Hey,

I have recently been reading a few threads about drugs that enhance your cognitive and short term memory abilities, such as pricetam. After looking over three threads on them, they sound great, but I am am still confused on a few issues. I was going to post this on the thread on l-deprenyl that exists, but that appears to be heading towards a discussion on use of the drug to enhance telepathic abilities, so I figured I'd start a new thread.

Firstly, what is the difference between pricetam, Selegiline (l-deprenyl), and l-phenylalanine? Which is most effective in increasing cognitive performance and short term memory?

Secondly, how legal/available are these drugs in Australia?

Thirdly, what issues surround mixing these drugs with MDMA and other recreational drugs? I am mostly interested in any negative effects of mixing these, rather than tips on how to peak harder, get more stoned, and so forth.

Thanks in advance. :)
 
Selegiline.gif


Deprenyl is basically l-methamphetamine with an extra 2 carbons attached forming a triple bond between them. Deprenyl basically acts as a MAOB non-reversible inhibitor.



cbook.cgi


Phenylalanine is an essential amino acid. Tyrosine is considered a non-essential amino acid because the body can synthesise it from phenylalanine. You can also see the similarity between phenylalanine and amphetamine, the only difference being that (pesky) caboxylic acid on the end


piracetam_2d.gif


Piracetam is a GABA analogue with many pharmaoclogical properties affecting several neurocellular functions and cellular integrity.



All are said to have some benefit, although I found phenylalanine to be minimal in effect. It seemed to increase the effects of cocaine but that's about it, although I sometimes thought I felt very content (placebo effect?)

I haven't tried either of the other 2, although I'm interested to do so with deprenyl. It's status in Aus is by prescription only, but there are no restrictions on it as far as I know. DL or L phenylalanine is available at health shops. I'm not sure about piracetam, but someone else will know.


Don't mix anything with deprenyl which stimulates dopamine or norepinephrine release.

MDMA does that, as does cocaine many amphetamines and most stimulating drugs.
 
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Cheers for the warning phase :)

I have a few questions for you and if you'd be kind enough to answer them, I'll be forever indebted to thee...

"Deprenyl basically acts as a MAOB non-reversible inhibitor." Now, is "inhibitor" a blanket term for something which inhibits reception of the relevant neurotransmitter on the dendrite? Can it mean reuptake inhibitor as well, or is there a different term for that? In this context, what does "non-reversible" mean? Does it mean the effect of inhibition can't be reversed while the deprenyl is in action, or can't be reversed ever?

Do all neurotransmitters work on the axon/electrical signal/axon terminal/synapse/receptors on dendrite wall model that 5-HT does?

Isn't phenylalanine the ingredient in Diet Coke that people claim causes brain cancer, etc? Obviously (as an amino acid) it doesn't, but does it carry any risks?

Lastly, you wouldn't be able to recommend an entry level neuroscience textbook would ya?

Sorry, that's a little more than I intended... Answer selectively, answer all or answer none at all, I don't mind :)
 
Don't apollo-gise (sorry couldn't resist =D). It's these sort of questions for which I eagerly wait and hope for.

Let's see. I realise you know some of this already, but to give as clearer picture as possible..

MAOB is an enzyme. It is relatively selective in regards to what substrates it binds with. It's major role is the breakdown of NA (noradrenaline) and DA (dopamine). MAOB is located throughout the body, where-ever DA or adrenoreceptors are located.

A non-reversible inhibitor is, as you worked out, a molecule which binds to the enzyme and effectively disables it. The enzyme will be broken down and recycled by first being chopped up into smaller proteins which may be reassembled by mRNA prompted enzymes (many). Smaller protein polypeptides cannot form stable secondary structures (the alpha-helix) so can be very prone to being picked up by passing molecules such as enzymes with the "right fit". Sometimes the steric hindrance of smaller protein pieces will result in the assembly of the enzyme from scratch. It is all based upon kinetics, the easiest route always being 1st choice.

When deprenyl binds to MAOB it causes a build up of the endogenous chemicals the enzyme would normally regulate. The normal body's response to increased levels is to release more MAOB or other oxidative enzymes in effort to maintain homeostasis. With a drug like amphetamine this response is far greater than for a drug like deprenyl, because amphetamine causes three basic primary actions, which signals a far greater need for a quick re-adjustment;

Amphetamine works on 3 areas of NA release

Enters the nerve terminal via nor-adrenaline carrier molecule (transporter) via uptake 1 receptors. Here it enters the vesicle via another transporter where it then exchanges itself for normally accumulated NA which is released. MAOB destroys some, but some NA escapes into the synapse. As this happens, more amphetamine enters the terminal (presynaptic axon face) to replace the released NA, thereby continuing the cycle.

Amphetamine also reduces post synaptic receptor uptake with the result being that the actions of NA are also increased.

Amphetamine also inhibits MAOB (slightly)

The action on DA cells is more a secondary action from the above, as with the even smaller affect on 5HT, although no doubt some dopamine is stimulated directly, especially with larger doses.

So amphetamine not only blocks the reuptake, but also stimulates NA release and prevents its breakdown. No wonder it's overall action is so powerful. In contrast, selegiline only works by reducing metabolism via MAOB. The body has other enzymes for this but MAOB is usually the most efficient [?] as a quick on the draw, mopping up soldier. Problem is, as we know MAO oxidation is done via a free radical mechanism....

In contrast deprenyl seems to primarily affect DA uptake in the brain, although the metabolites are the same as L-amphetamine and would be expected to be active to some degree as are the amphetamine metabolites.

An awful part about aging is the apparent role MAOB plays in increasing neural decline. As we age more MAOB is found in the brain, and being the heavy handed hammer it is, free radicals are produced which damage cells. So it is reasoned by many that by reducing levels of MAOB (safely of course) then less neurodegeneration should occur. It is known that deprenyl also enables DA to work more efficiently as has been shown with some late stage parkinsons patients who no longer respond to L-DOPA alone. It seems as though the body's response to L-DOPA is to get rid of it quicker by making more MAOB. This is not the full picture by a long way, but it serves to illustrate why and how deprenyl works.

Enzyme specific drugs designed to bind with MAOB would not be expected to bind with the receptor, and if by chance they did, they would be very unlikely to cause any similar affect. Receptors, like enzymes are amazingly complex molecules. While a drug may fit with several endogenous chemicals; enzymes, receptors, transporters, ion channels etc, it will not cause the same result as the actions of each is so different. [Correction: The physiological result of binding will be different but either could result in the same outcome e.g. Something which is both a strong inhibitor of MAO-A and stimulates 5HT release could result in high levels of serotonin, producing serotonin syndrome] The actions of some toxins or drugs at a high level is somewhat different, in that cellular death occurs due to severe disruptions in normal function, usually involving a cascading effect.


Do all neurotransmitters work on the axon/electrical signal/axon terminal/synapse/receptors on dendrite wall model that 5-HT does?

No. There are many neurotransmitters, some of which work on ion channels (GABA), some bind to G protein receptors (5HT), some work on Kinase(enzyme)-linked receptors in cell walls, resulting in many cellular effects. Others operate on gene transcription receptors within the nucleus of the cell. During the journey to its target receptor, a molecule may be shuffled, piggybacked or chemically altered before it crosses the cell membrane where it is converted back to its original form.
NO or nitric oxide is an example of a neurotransmitter which binds to enormous numbers of bio-molecules. It was only discovered to be a neurotransmitter some 20 years ago, and not until the last few years that it's roles have been deduced. There is still much to learn about NO, including it's role in apoptosis (programmed cell death)

OK, I don't actually own a neuroscience text, although I understand there are some goods ones. The forbidden site reviewed one around a year ago. It looked great but was too much for me to spend.

I suggest getting a really good anatomy and physiology text, a good pharmacology text, and the best biochemistry text. IMHO you should also get a good organic text. All this adds up to a lot of money, so start with the anatomy/physiology. Martini is an excellent text, comes with online support and applications manual. The neurology and nervous system sections are very comprehensive with a well detailed text. I do have many good neuro papers if you're interested.

Cheers, you know what to do if you need any details.
 
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I had to read that twice, and digest the meanings of 7 or 8 new words, but I'm sure I've grasped it all... :)

I've cropped up a few more questions, but they're far from relevant to this discussion, so I'll see if I can find answers in good 'ol google!

Cheers for the advice & explanations phase_dancer!
 
Sorry, I forgot to address your question about phenylalanine. I've heard the rumours but never seen where they originated from. I guess in light of what's still not known about tryptophan and EMS, a high intake of any amino acid should be approached with caution.

A bit OT, but something book related. If you can find a good second hand pharmacology book of ~10 years old even, it will still give you a great outline of neural function, which will be easy to reference against a good anatomy/physiology text.

Another tip is if you know any garage sale hunters, ask them to look out for any old chemistry or medical texts. I've found some great books like this. Among them is "The Double Helix" written by James Watson shortly after he and Francis Crick finally were able to prove their theory of the structure of DNA, winning them the Nobel prize just ahead of Linus Pauling.

It's one of the most inspiring stories for any budding young scientist. These guys were complete cases, moving from University to University, to anyone who'd have them in the end.

These guys were the coolest Nerds
main_watson_crick.jpg


On Feb. 28, 1953, Francis Crick walked into the Eagle pub in Cambridge, England, and, as James Watson later recalled, announced that "we had found the secret of life." Actually, they had. That morning, Watson and Crick had figured out the structure of deoxyribonucleic acid, DNA. And that structure — a "double helix" that can "unzip" to make copies of itself — confirmed suspicions that DNA carries life's hereditary information.

From Here
 
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Hey satricion,

By now you've probably done a fair bit more research and are considerably more knowledgeable on the topic (if you havent you should, 'cause there's a shite load of info out there!). Anyway, I have found that the combination of Hydergine and Piracetam works well. I found Piracetam on its own to work quite well, but the effects can easily be ignored. When combined with Hydergine the effects seem to be alot more apparent. For me these effects were increased concentration and a general attitude of "lets get shit done", or "Just Do It" (thanks Nike). Also less self-doubt (maybe? ;0)

MDMA, speed etc will be potentiated. Havent had the opportunity lately to test this, but with Piracetam on its own the increase in effects was fairly obvious. With alcohol Ive found that it really is difficult to get pissed.....like you have more control when drinking. You still get that familiar feeling of well-being euphoria (maybe more so) without fully losing oyurself in the pissedness :)
Also effects coffee are increased. Ive had to occasionly quit drinking coffee for a few days because it was making me too uncomfortable (anxious). This really pissed me off because I love coffee.

Youll have no prbs getting them into OZ. Just find an intnl on-line vendor. Im also looking at Deprenyl at the moment too. Im fairly certain that there wil be no prbs with Deprenyl even though you need a script locally. Can anyone clear this up who has imported Deprenyl? Nano?
 
as far as i know, deprenyl can actually be used as a very effective neuroprotectant in combination with MDMA, as long as dose is kept at bay so that it doesn't lose it's selectivity.
 
Yes...but

Yes, I've read several papers exclaiming this, but I think this combination is particularly dangerous considering the possibility of what may be lurking in tablets, even those which pass the acid (EZ) test.

Even if you were sure you were takng MDMA, it would be difficult to know what dose to start with, as the Selegiline is usually taken as a pre-load, requiring several days (weeks) of administation to acheive a reduction in MAO-B. Although this no-doubt occurs to some degree with a single dose of each, effective neuro-protection may be minimal and the combination could present other complications.

I could be wrong on this but nevertheless feel it's worth erring on the side of caution when it comes to MAO inhibitor interactions; the medical texts are full of them. So, if nanobrain or other deprenyl experienced person could comment...
 
what common adulterants should be avoided when under influence by selegiline? and what can result as a cause of a mix? i heard something about amphetamine & meth having potential of dangerous interaction with sele, not sure thoughm, would be grateful if somebody could clear things up.
 
Meth, amphetamine, cocaine or even MDMA taken with selegiline could cause serious problems. Why?

All 4 drugs mentioned cause increased release of dopamine, DA; and noradrenaline, NA (or norepinephrine, NE; depending on what country you're in). As is probably realised, almost everything in the body is affected by the actions of adreno-receptors.

Perhaps most importantly of all, these receptors control heart rate, blood pressure and vascular dilation. Unfortunately, all three are sometimes stimulated by the same endogen (body chemical) or drug/metabolite. Without going into the different functions of the alpha, beta1 and beta 2 receptors; meth/ amphetamine causes increased heart rate, increased blood pressure, and vascular constriction. Noradrenaline is the main culprit in terms of a health concern, with increases in free dopamine correlating to increases in noradrenaline, although this is not a linear relationship.

When a major pathway for the body to rid the excess catecholamines is blocked (for dopamine and noradrenaline here), levels build up causing serious escalations in B.P. and heart rate. Amphetamine and methamphetamine have different effects on central and peripheral circulation at low dosages. Amphetamine is more stimulating to the peripheral circulation, while simultaneously restricting blood flow by causing blood vessels to contract. It's easy to see where this is going.

For these reasons I feel selegiline should be approached with extreme caution if intended to be used with any sympathomimetic amines, including MDMA, as it is well known that MDMA also stimulates considerable amounts of free dopamine. It may be that it can be accurately argued that there are sufficient alternative routes of metabolism, which therefore doesn't make the risks so high, but let someone provide the argument.

Until then I would think of selegiline solely as a noo-tropic or an aid for L-dopa; to be used for these purposes rather than as an enhancer or even a protector for MDMA. While significant attention is often drawn to the dangers of using MDMA with MAO-A inhibitor, overloading the DA/NE system might kill you faster than a bullet.! You may not need to even approach the normal dosage of selegiline which inhibits MAO-A before the enzyme is affected. MDMA also inhibits MAO-A. Lots to read up on before any conclusion can be drawn as to how safe this is.

Read the older posts by nanobrain on selegiline and if you still decide to go the combination, start out with far below what's considered an active dose of each. Work up your dosage slowly and incrementally.

Be careful
 
please heed all of p_d's warnings regarding combinations involving l-deprenyl and stimulants carefully!!!

you may have seen some former posts of mine on combos, but please remember, i work with pure substances and have extensive knowledge of own metabolic and psychological operating parameters and limits.

btw, telepathic effects were really side effects, secondary - if that - to my main reason for thaking l-dep, and potentiation of psychedelics - the last reason.

l-phen synergises well w/caffeine and takes off the jitteriness and the edginess of a double-latte comedown. oh and in combination with deprenyl, the antidepressant and mood-elevating effects are significant and way better than any SSRI / SDRI etc.
 
I shall heed thy warnings. ;)
do you mean L-phenylalanine together with dep has significant mood elevating effects?
I sent you a PM nanobrain, please check it out. (was like 2 weeks ago) :p
 
stz, I can vouch for nanobrain by saying that he's been very busy lately. I'm sure he'll get to your PM eventually.
 
Does anyone have the legal status of the drugs listed at http://www.erowid.org/smarts/smarts.shtml
such as the ones associated with intelligence, learning, memory and cognitive functions?
VASOPRESSIN - Pressyn, Diapid
SELEGILINE - Deprenyl, Eldepryl
PIRACETAM
OXIRACETAM - Neuractiv, Hydroxypiracetam
DILANTIN - Phenytoin Cognitive Function
DMAE - Di-methyl-amino-ethanol
and natural stimulants?

Which ones are legal to buy over the counter, which ones require a prescription and which ones are illegal?

Has anyone used these? have they helped in your overall quality of life.
Do they conflict with your drug use (in a good or bad way?)
enhancing MDMA or creating problems?

Also if they are legal can someone post or PM me the whereabouts that i can buy these?

Sorry to bring back old thread... :)
 
Hey i was thinking of getting some of these 'smart drugs' such as:

DMAE
5-HTP
Melatonin
Vinpocetine
Huperzine A
Piracetam

Has anyone used these and noticed any posotive effects.
Can they be used in combination of each other?
Are there any side effects that should be of concern?
And do they cause any adverse reactions mixed with drugs?
 
The first time I took 1g of L-phenyl, I had it with a large latte and actually got so jittery I couldnt think straight. Couldnt focus on a task for more than a few seconds.... And out of nowhere I will just start getting really happy and excited... Anyone else experienced this?
 
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