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Wracked with Guilt

I just dont know! Thanks for your insight but its bit more difficult. She has said she is committed to her partner but has asked if Id ever date her if the circumstances were different. I dont know what to make of that, whether its an innocent question or wanting to know to make a move. This is doing my head in.

Sounds to me like she's sizing you up to see if she should ditch the other guy who isn't giving her the affection she needs.

You don't want to "ruin what she has"? Why? It sounds like you'd be doing her a favor. She surely doesn't sound like she is in a great relationship.

Exactly... I'm not one to advocate coming in between someone else's relationship at all, but in this case it sounds like the other guy hardly even cares about her. I don't know why the OP is feeling like he would be destroying something magical because honestly the other guy sounds like an indifferent douche. Just because they have been together 4 years and have sex doesn't necessarily mean anything especially if her needs aren't being met.
 
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Of course... you're not sure. You've been in FRIEND mode...

So don't bring this situation, as you have here...

But if she does, then you should ask questions. I want to confirm from you: "she said she thinks she is {happy}" or you think she thinks she is happy?
If she brings up relationship / intimacy issues with Norm to you again... then there are ISSUES. I think she maybe feeling you out - subconsciously... and has desires for a REAL boyfriend.

She is giving you, a guy - lots of information that shouldn't be your business.
 
Thanks alot guys for the input. Alot of what you say does make alot of sense. I do sometimes get the feeling that what we talk about is more than what we should as simple friends. Im not sure if she is simply trusting me enough to be able to tell me these things or whether subconsciously she wants more.

In all this im just trying not to step on anyones toes, damage my friendship with her or do anything more I may regret.

The problem with both of us is that we click so well, personality wise and from our night together we sexually match as well in every way. I find her pretty irresistible too so I may sit down, have a chat and find out exactly where we stand. Normally I wouldnt but with what happened, the way we still talk and the cheekiness I get from her, one way or another we have to resolve this.
 
Just from what you said, reading between the lines she is throwing all kinda of openings out there for you. She probably doesn't want to be the one to step up and initiate talk of relationship between you two but she is giving you big wide openings for you to step up

Would you believe she has actually asked, "If the circumstances were different do you think youd be interested in dating?". While thats a huge sign, I have been confused by her saying that "im not her type" so I dont know if she is just getting attached because im giving her what she needs when her relationship is rocky or because I can satisfy her in bed or something else. If either of the formers, I cant see that being a foundation for a strong relationship.
 
I'd say she is feeling you out to see where you stand on a possible relationship with her, yet cushioning the blow to her emotions/ego in case you don't respond positively. Kind of putting herself out there but with a safety net in case you'd say "no I only think of you as a friend".
 
Well to add something more to the story I bit the bullet and said yes, if the circumstances were different I would be interested but I also added that I would not be pushing for it or do anything to risk what she has. If it happens in the future we would explore it but I wont try for it.

Wonder if that was the right way to go about it, trying to stress I'm interested but also say I am not going to interfere. Hopefully she realizes that's a respect thing.
 
Would you believe she has actually asked, "If the circumstances were different do you think youd be interested in dating?". While thats a huge sign, I have been confused by her saying that "im not her type" so I dont know if she is just getting attached because im giving her what she needs when her relationship is rocky or because I can satisfy her in bed or something else. If either of the formers, I cant see that being a foundation for a strong relationship.

(I read you latest response on page 2) - so, she asked you this question online (facebook messaging?). I recommend you make such talks in person, its more... personal that way.
My wife isn't exactly my type either... but we love each other so, we mixed our differences together to make a better person in each of us.

So, it seems you want more than a lay, and if she does too... then that would be great.
 
Yeah we do most of our talking online as we both work so much.

We are actually both going to be seeing each other a bit more now too - we are both getting fit together and going to organise to meet a couple of afternoons a week on top of the days we just hang out already so ill be seeing a ton of her. See how that goes!

She confuses me because on her Facebook posts as well she mentions her current partner and the love she has and wanting to make it long term. Whether she keeps repeating it to maker herself believe it I dont know or if she is trying to put our night truly behind us. Shes not straight forward!

Should probably at this stage say we are both early 20s. Whether or not that has any bearing.
 
1 - Why would *SHE* have to keep repeating herself to anyone that she's in a long term relationship? Now, wording is important here... "I want to make it long term" is **NOT THE SAME ** as "I'm in a long term" relationship. Girls are odd that way, us guys are more dense. Its usually, sex = good. No sex = bad. ARRGH! scratch balls, drink beer. So her messages to YOU "I want a long term" could easily mean, "I want a long term - with Norm, but he doesn't seem to be worth it... but if I break up with Norm - it means I don't want to be a slut - and it would be long term with someone else". Actions and words are two different things (and the history of above).

If you notice something about OUR conversation if this matter with you. How much of it has to do with the sex you both had vs. the sex and intimacy she DOESN'T have now. ie: Norm is the problem.

2 - Yes, it kind of makes a difference of age. Is Norm also in his early 20s (which I will assume, otherwise). That means, they have been together since right after high school. I tell this to people, especially girls and these rules are general, there are always exceptions. (okay?) When we start dating and having relationships, hopefully in our teenage years, we CHANGE as we mature. What we want, what we need, what we do changes as we age. Some more so than others. here is my rough chart:

age 18 - out of school, young legal adult. Maybe off to college. Lots of breakups as teens go to different schools, learn to be with ADULTS. Rarely do 16yr olds last to 18yr olds in relationships.
age 21 - drinking, more maturity. Less thinking like a teenager. If you lasted this long (4+ years) thats pretty good. you may have moved in with another adult... is there more to life?
age 25 - Your brain has matured. Now you're just starting to grow ~~~ old ~~~. Everything from here on is life experience. This is also when your body starts to become overweight as your metabolism is starting to slow.
(So stop or reduce eating shitty junk food)
age 30 - More thinking of the long term... getting into a relationship now, is likely to be years-lasting, even if its light dating.
age 40 - midlife... should be serious by then :)

People meeting and falling in love in the 30s is likely to last longer than at 25. Meeting and dating someone when you're 18~20 will most likely only last a few months to a few years.

Norm's disinterest in sex is not a good sign (which we've gone over) and who knows, there is a chance he's cheating on her with another woman or man (wouldn't' be the first time) - there are people who realize their sexuality orientation in their 20s, hell sometimes 30's, etc.

I've had some lame sexual partners, who we're not worth going back after the first 2~3 times. I was hoping to have a long-term relationship with a woman who lived a few blocks away from me. great body, very attractive (model type), very nice vag and tits... but we were not compatible sexually. She sounded and acted like a porn-star and talked to much. The 2nd time I knew it wasn't working for sure as I couldn't keep it hard. Why waste each other's time?
I soon meet my future wife, smaller but awesome breasts, cute, awesome in bed. But lived 40 miles away! ARGH! She was worth the drive... a lot of driving. After 5 years together, a kid, a history; my dick gets hard thinking about her. This morning, we made love for about an hour before passing out for more sleep. We can see each other being together 10, 20, 30 years from now.

With Norm, that intimacy sucks today, it'll suck tomorrow, and will be that way 10 years from now.

(BTW: You are welcome to share my story with her - in your own words about a buddy, whose married and that is sexual, will cuddle up together to watch TV together, touch each other in bed - even while sleeping)
 
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Yeah we do most of our talking online as we both work so much.

We are actually both going to be seeing each other a bit more now too - we are both getting fit together and going to organise to meet a couple of afternoons a week on top of the days we just hang out already so ill be seeing a ton of her. See how that goes!

She confuses me because on her Facebook posts as well she mentions her current partner and the love she has and wanting to make it long term. Whether she keeps repeating it to maker herself believe it I dont know or if she is trying to put our night truly behind us. Shes not straight forward!

Should probably at this stage say we are both early 20s. Whether or not that has any bearing.

Just hang out with her and let her make the first move if she's going to. The ball's in her court now. I would try to disregard what she's saying online and just see what happens. She could just be saying those things for a multitude of reasons. That's just my 2 cents anyways.
 
Thanks again Clitnhawk - thats an amazing story.

Personally, being young ive obviously not had a ridiculous amount of relationship experience but I felt ive had a decent bit. I have had several girlfriends in the past, lived with a couple and inevitably ended as we change as people. My last relationship ended in January this year after a long 5.5 years. Unfortunately, I had changed as a person from when we had first met and while she was everything I liked, cute and a nice body, her personality was a bit flatter and more restrained than mine and worst of all (as shallow as it may seem) she had zero sex drive and we may have had sex every couple of months - if that which was awful for me because I have a high sex drive and the constant rejection when I made a move got to me. She was fully in love with me so she tried to hold on when I wanted to end it but I had to make the right decision by me. I wasnt happy.

As for my current situation, I can almost see Norm as the same. The vibe he gives off seems like he has lost interest but even worse because he seems to be doing things that actively emotionally hurt my friend including lack of affection and even little things that make her second guess certain things. I cant see it lasting long term but obviously because of how long its been, my friend is still into him but is missing out on so many things that she needs that she can get from me and I'm happy to give. Stuff like the sex and proper romantic affection im obviously holding myself back on because its not appropriate given the situation but just inviting her out to fun things, the odd cuddling and relaxing watching something and paying small compliments when I notice something are little things that I do notice actively brighten her up. In our talks, she has doubted her looks and when I said she was beautiful and meant it genuinely, she said it made her year because no one says that, not even her partner...

I will be sitting back and doing what I can to help but I agree, the ball is in her court. If she wants more, its up to her because its a sticky situation that could get very real very fast if something were to come out.
 
Today, my wife got a break from work as she was called in early for help as it was. She is very tired and lays in bed in her clothes (No uniform for job) I happen to be nude when I lay down and spoon her, with my crotch up against her firm butt and my arm across her chest. We relax and I give her some massaging that way for about 30 mins before I get up to do things that need to be done for the day. It was relaxing for both of us, she needed it. It wasn't about sex, nor did I try... much. I was content to spend quiet time with her. I'm lucky, she is lucky - we're both lucky to have each other. We'll be doing these things 10+ years from now. :) That is how it should be.

My ex from 10 years ago, whom I have a good friendship with today - was kinky. Loves anal, fisting, squirts, young (younger than my wife by a few years), but the sex wasn't quite compatible for many reasons as I stated earlier. Things like cuddling was something she wasn't into. I got bored of her. I got bored with most women after 1~3 months.

So, share that with her... and what you told us about your previous relationship. When its appropriate, of course!
 
Thanks again for the insight clitnhawk.

So to give this an update, we have had a good talk. She and I have been spending a fair bit of time together. We have both restrained ourselves from sex or anything sexual but we have just sat and watched things cuddling, playing footsies and hand holding. It may be a bit more than normal friends but its not anything too much.

We have discussed it and know its more than just friendship and has said there have been times where she has wanted more but has held back as I have. She enjoys the cuddling and all of that, has said its been nice.

She and her partner are in a rough patch too but from what ive been told he can have a very abrasive and rude reactions to being sad or depressed and the like. Telling her not to bother coming around because she apparently doesnt put him more important over her friends because she was unexpectedly going to be a little late to his place tonight. She says its "just how he is sometimes" and honestly it just makes me angry seeing her being hurt like this. She has said that he was told he needed to change a while ago and there hasnt been change, she is giving him more time but she is getting sick of it too. I just hope its not too long, she deserves better and I want to be able to give her what she needs and wants.
 
Sounds like she's making the moves man. Watch out for that shit. It can get sticky. Don't get tangled in the web dood.

I have to agree, because I was that girl.
Trust me, no one wins, and everyone gets hurt.

At first, it is fun and games, but that pleasure is not worth the pain to come.

I would like to ask, please?
Do you live together? Why was she sleeping in your bed anyway? Just curious.

Sometimes, we do it, because we can.

I wish you the best, but, please approach carefully. I have been that girl, and it will get nasty.
But, I am no longer that girl -yep- I am lonely in the end! ;)
 
Trust me when I say I'm approaching this beyond carefully.

She and I are very close friends and simply are just comfortable enough to be able to share a bed.

She is coming over again to work out with me on Monday and will stay the night so it might be worth a chat and work out exactly what her thoughts are and where we stand so no more guessing.
 
Trust me when I say I'm approaching this beyond carefully.

She and I are very close friends and simply are just comfortable enough to be able to share a bed.

She is coming over again to work out with me on Monday and will stay the night so it might be worth a chat and work out exactly what her thoughts are and where we stand so no more guessing.

Maximum,
You are doing the right thing.

And, after I posted, I realized that your friendship with her was different than my situation. So, I do apologize for categorizing your situation like mine. Yours is slightly different and maybe even more complex with the close friendship.

Honestly, she needs to be honest with everyone involved - mostly herself. She sounds confused like I did. Two guys offering two different things that a girl wants can be confusing and dangerous.

Best of luck, and please keep us posted.
 
If Norm wasn't behaving so erratically, blaming his bull shit on her... and was a loving, caring, NORMAL relationship type of guy, I'd tell Maximim to fuck off. :)
You ask good questions, IneedAnswers2015. I don't think Norm will be hurt. If everything is true what we hear about this guy, then it won't actually hurt him... just his ego, at the most for a week or so.
The age of these people, the history, the current interactions = she's going to dump Norm sooner or later when she is sick of his shit.

I was talking to a female friend of mine, Her BF of 2 years dumped her a month ago because she was being a bitch, which she admits. She is taking Anger management therapy now (I recommend) and is looking at the future. They have recently gotten back together, as I told it that it was likely since she is making an actual effort to improve herself - even if he never returns. Anyway, I told her this "Be broke up with you over a childish situation without warning. While there are people who spend months or years dealing with an asshole before willing to breakup".

There are also women who *LIVE* for that shit... ignore the nice, thoughtful guy who'd cuddle and care for her, while crying about the abusive or asshole guy... because he's "exciting".

@Maximum: You both *ARE* doing light romantic playing right now with the cuddling, footsies, hand-holding. Think: two 13yr olds who are virgins. Here is an easy way to prove it:
1 - go to a male friend's house, and attempt to do that same exact thing. He doesn't have to be straight.
2 - You wouldn't do that *TO* a guy friend of yours, now would you?! Okay, imagine a GUY doing that to you, and saying "we're just friends".

In other words: YOU are both CURRENTLY romantically involved!!

Continue that path, you seem to enjoy what you both are doing - and YOU are proving to her, that she's more than just a vagina - by having fun without intercourse.

My friend that I posted above, she's a hottie. We've seen each other naked, partied hard together. I've stripped her naked, bathed her, and put her in my bed naked as well as myself. I've taken photos when I woke up because she look cute sleeping and she's done some modelings and of course I gave her those photos. She's a friend of 10 years, and we'll be friends 10 years from now... *WE* have never played footsie. Or hold hands, or cuddle sober or on purpose (When drunk, we might have once or twice, I don't remember) - we're friends. We're not into each other, even thou she and my wife are great friends since I introduced them as they have very similar personality and likes - I had the hots for my wife since meet a few years ago. There was that sexual energy that you don't GET with FRIENDS.


Again, you're both are into each other... but don't force it. She's being respectful of Norm, you and herself as much as possible - those conflicts are real.
Keep having fun with each other... minus the sex (keep cuddling, hands, feet, etc), until Norm is out of the picture.
 
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