Would legalized opiates decrease alcohol use

[cowardescent]

I can't believe this has happened but I'm starting to dislike alcohol. I'm 21 and don't even drink often and when I do it's in moderation but for some reason, I'm getting an "opiate" crave instead of an alcohol crave.

I find alcohol now to be unpleasant, hangover aside. The pleasure to side effect ratio is skewed towards the side effects. Trying to find codeine here in Ireland but it's hard to find it without ibuprofen. The opiate high, even from a weak drug like codeine is far more pleasant than alcohol IME.

I wonder though, if codeine phosphate and other opiates were sold otc, would alcohol pretty much become like nutmeg. Something only desperate kids do? No doubt alcohol can be enjoyable but in all fairness, it just feels too easy to take one sip or eat a meal and feel nausea.

 

[belligerent drunk]

Decrease? Yes. Significantly? Doubtfully.

The culture of alcohol is so deeply ingrained into Western society that most people would probably ignore the change. After aĺl alcohol is a lot more of a social drug than opioids.

However, some people would definitely switch. I'd be one of them and I know others who would too. I'd be even satisfied with OTC pure codeine for a reasonable price. My level of general productivity and well-being is enhanced by codeine; alcohol affects it very detrimentally.

I firmly believe that it would benefit society if a significant portion of the population switched from alc to (weak) opis. Decrease in health system burden associated with alc (direct toxicity, drunken violence and/or vehicular accidents), decrease in lost manhours from people skipping work due to hangovers. There's more, but the post is long enough as is.

 

[mostly-human]

Regarding Ibu+Codeine, you know it takes like 5min of your time (and a bit of waiting afterwards, but not long) to do a CWE and remove all the ibuprofen..

 

[Wilson Wilson]

I wonder though, if codeine phosphate and other opiates were sold otc, would alcohol pretty much become like nutmeg. Something only desperate kids do? No doubt alcohol can be enjoyable but in all fairness, it just feels too easy to take one sip or eat a meal and feel nausea.

You can buy codeine syrup OTC in the UK yet we are the biggest drinkers in Europe so I'll go ahead and say no to that.

It's about culture more than availability as the bloke with Ted Bundy as his avatar said.

Interestingly though I am reading Nietzsche right now and he makes multiple references to preferring opium over alcohol because it is cleaner, more relaxing, more subtle. He conversely describes alcohol as "disgusting" and calls it "the European poison" repeatedly throughout his work.

An example quote:

“Perhaps Asians are distinguished above Europeans by a capacity for longer, deeper calm; even their opiates have a slow effect and require patience, as opposed to the disgusting suddenness of the European poison, alcohol.”

 

[belligerent drunk]

Interestingly though I am reading Nietzsche right now and he makes multiple references to preferring opium over alcohol because it is cleaner, more relaxing, more subtle. He conversely describes alcohol as "disgusting" and calls it "the European poison" repeatedly throughout his work.

This sums up my sentiments and opinions about opioids vs alcohol to the T. I mean - I think exactly like that.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

This sums up my sentiments and opinions about opioids vs alcohol to the T. I mean - I think exactly like that.

Same here mate. I agree fully with the description. I got mates who still get so drunk they throw up and have terrible hangovers. If I go to a night out with a bottle of codeine or Oramorph, or some pills of DHC or oxy, I will have a nice relaxing yet social high (especially with DHC and oxy, they have a buzz to them) with no ill effects the next morning.

It's easy to say in response "yeah but that shit is addictive mate." To which I'd respond "you ever met an alcoholic?"

I really wish we still had opium dens.

 

[Nicomorphinist]

Yes they would -- there was always this kind of lore with opium to some extent, and morphine was touted as an alcoholism cure for a long time and it can actually work.

The two are, at least to my quirky and labile metabolism, also incompatible . . .after I started morphine round the clock any more than the equivalent of a glass and a half of Grüner Veltliner would start the hangover symptoms forthwith and there was no getting tipsy and within 25 minutes I was hankering for a blast of Miss Emma or her sisters, Nico and Mrs D being my favourites. Dextromoramide and ketobemidone and dipipanone too. I tried šljivovica and reagent grade ethanol in orange juice too, so it wasn't congeners in the wine. I guess the liver can process one or the other, not both. Also, morphine preserves living systems if anything; alcohol is yeast shit purpose-designed as a caustic which destroys living systems. When I used to get hammered on yeast shit, I would thank them before it went down the hatch.

On the other hand, a charge of dihydromorphine swept away a hangover on one occasion, a wonderful businesslike bankerish narcotic that got me out the door that particular morning. I also was sure to have a pitcher of water and two pickles for breakfast that day.

 

[Xorkoth]

I think it would decrease some. But consider that you can drink alcohol every day, like a few drinks after work or whatever, and not get physically dependent. The same is not true of opiates. Alcohol, although it's quite toxic and really should be considered a "hard drug", is pretty sustainable to use long term. My friend has been drinking to the point of getting drunk, like around 8 high-gravity beers every single night, for the past 12 years straight. He took a week off because he was scared he'd get withdrawals but he said he felt great that week. No fucking way does that happen with opiates. Alcohol is very seriously physically addictive but you pretty much to use it constantly, or be genetically susceptible. I've had periods where I drank very heavily almost every day, or every day for weeks, and have never had withdrawals, but I always waited until night time.

Opiates though are for sure way, way better for you than alcohol. But there's no way to use them daily without succumbing to addiction, gradually increasing dose, eventually feeling like you'd do anything to get them to avoid feeling the worst feeling in the world, etc. Although there are a lot of alcoholics, it seems to me that percentage-wise when you consider the total number of people that use opiates vs alcohol, that a much higher percentage of opiate users become addicted to it. if they were legal I suppose it might be acceptable though, you could just always get them. I guess what I'm saying is that, though alcohol is an inferior drug due to its toxicity, there are a much higher percentage of alcohol users who drink responsibly and don't have problems from it than there are among opiate users.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

I think it would decrease some. But consider that you can drink alcohol every day, like a few drinks after work or whatever, and not get physically dependent. The same is not true of opiates. Alcohol, although it's quite toxic and really should be considered a "hard drug", is pretty sustainable to use long term. My friend has been drinking to the point of getting drunk, like around 8 high-gravity beers every single night, for the past 12 years straight. He took a week off because he was scared he'd get withdrawals but he said he felt great that week. No fucking way does that happen with opiates. Alcohol is very seriously physically addictive but you pretty much to use it constantly, or be genetically susceptible. I've had periods where I drank very heavily almost every day, or every day for weeks, and have never had withdrawals, but I always waited until night time.

Opiates though are for sure way, way better for you than alcohol. But there's no way to use them daily without succumbing to addiction, gradually increasing dose, eventually feeling like you'd do anything to get them to avoid feeling the worst feeling in the world, etc. Although there are a lot of alcoholics, it seems to me that percentage-wise when you consider the total number of people that use opiates vs alcohol, that a much higher percentage of opiate users become addicted to it. if they were legal I suppose it might be acceptable though, you could just always get them. I guess what I'm saying is that, though alcohol is an inferior drug due to its toxicity, there are a much higher percentage of alcohol users who drink responsibly and don't have problems from it than there are among opiate users.

I get what you're saying. But in both cases it is a matter of dosage and frequency. If for example you used 30-60mg codeine on the weekend, like many drink a pint or two or glass of wine, you won't get physically dependent and would just get a mild buzz as you would off the booze. But yes for daily use opiates are problematic. I'd say a low dose daily wouldn't cause much problems, but then tolerance of course would become the problem.

But keep in mind if someone has a drink casually every day they're getting threshold psychoactive effects if any. So they're not really looking to get drunk unless they are alcoholics. It's usually because they like the taste of the drink. Or it's the social experience you get from a pub, everyone from the working class to the wealthy City workers in London to goes to the pub for lunch and after work. So it's hard to directly compare that to opiates.

I'm more thinking about when someone is getting proper drunk on the weekend. I personally prefer to use opiates on a night out, I did just last weekend and had a blast at a pub. Had just one overpriced cider and a good few dihydrocodeine pills. Had an amazing night walking about in Soho with my mates after.

As for addiction rates, something like 20% of people who try heroin get addicted, and that's a high number but that's only people who try heroin. If you get to that point you've already broken a lot of social barriers to be willing to do smack and that's not the average person. I do think potent opiates like oxy are clearly more risky for addiction, but then a bottle of vodka daily is also very risky. I honestly don't think something like casual codeine use presents a significant risk for most people. That's why codeine is sold OTC in many countries. Codeine is like beer, oxy is like vodka, clearly having a beer once in a while is different to having a bottle of vodka every night.

But from an HR standpoint, weed is a better alcohol alternative than opiates of course. I think eventually that'll become more common as weed gets legal and more socially acceptable. Which is exactly why alcohol lobbies are a big driving factor behind political lobbying in favour of prohibition.

I'm not really advocating people use opiates instead of alcohol, just answering OP's question because I think it is an interesting topic. And culturally and historically, let's not forget it was not long ago you had legal opium dens and opium was not stigmatised. Throughout virtually the whole of recorded human history, and throughout almost every civilisation, culture, and empire around the world, you had opium usage and it was not illegal or stigmatised. The anti-drugs attitude we have today is very novel. And the driving force behind it in the West is racism from what I can tell. Opium became stigmatised due to associations with Chinese and Indian immigrants. Cannabis became stigmatised due to associations with Mexicans and black people. The driving force behind prohibition of these drugs was to keep them from "corrupting" white people. Alcohol has more of an association with European culture in recent history, while opium has more of an association with Asian culture. That is pretty much the only real reason alcohol is accepted today and opium is not.

 

[Juniper Bruhmomentius]

I honestly think in time (5-10 yrs) and proper knowledge of opiates it would decrease alcoholism pretty significantly

 

[Nicomorphinist]

There is physical dependence potential with alcohol as well -- the canonical withdrawal symptom being the delirium tremens, otherwise known as the Bottleache, Ork Orks, Gallon Distemper, Quart Mania, Triangles, Blue Horrors and so forth, which by itself is potentially lethal, whereas opioid withdrawal kills in a small fraction of cases by heart attacks, strokes, pulmonary embolisms and organ failure from dehydration; maybe a vanishingly small number from pancreas problems.

Liquor and cannabis advocates try to throw one another under the bus. Everybody does it to narcotics. The passion for benzodiazepines may be a cultural thing which I do not fully understand, above and beyond the fact I have used them sparingly for medical reasons, such as peculiar LADME profiles leading to prolonged side effects and so forth.

I would like to see barbiturates come back myself as well as groovy stuff like Miltown, Doriden, Noludar, and Ludes/Disco Biscuits, but we will see. Chloral hydrate and paraldehyde are actually chemically related to alcohol. One fellow with whom I went to primary and secondary school remembered all the coffee I drank and was astonished when he saw me at university once to find out about my interest in downers, narcotics, antihistamines, and the like and exclaimed "Herr Doktor Tranq!" and has referred to me as that ever since. I think it fits.

 

[Xorkoth]

As for addiction rates, something like 20% of people who try heroin get addicted, and that's a high number but that's only people who try heroin.

Wow, is the rate really that low? Almost every single person I know who has taken the opiate path to the point of oxy or heroin has become seriously addicted and either recovered eventually, is dead, or is still struggling/in jail/etc. I don't mean everyone who has tried opiates before, just the people who have graduated to heroin unless it was just like they tried heroin one or twice and were opiate-naive

 

[Nicomorphinist]

The picture may be muddied a bit by the fact that a lot of unsupervised opioid users are self-medicating chronic conditions and the issue of poly-drug use, but in the strict sense, that does indeed sound plausible, and I would adduce the evidence of my occasional use of tobacco over the years as a laxative and to burn off anticholinergic hangover without ever using two days in a row or more than four times in any month. I would guess that the one drug that I would think has anything over a 50 per cent chance of addicting all those who sample it is high-purity dextromethamphetamine base (Shabu)

And the propaganda half truth about ~75 per cent of heroin habits in the US starting with an opioid prescription quoted most recently in The Economist is a hoary abominable lie going back at least to the Treasury Department persecuting narcotic clinic doctors in the years after the Harrison Narcotics Act 1914. I would point people to a book everyone should have on their book shelf, How To Lie With Statistics by Darrell Huff, and I am guessing I don't have to explain this further to Bluelighters, who have always seemed to be a wise and wily bunch.

One reason for this is that, especially when contrasted with stimulants, psychedelics, dissociatives, deliriants, alcohol, and so forth, the effects of narcotics, even the strong ones, are subtle and not something everybody is going to be interested in if taking drugs strictly for kicks. They call heroin smack not because it smacks you upside the head, caeteris paribus, but from the Yiddish word schmeck. If it does, consider cuts in your smack and also your possible concomitant stimulant, benzodiazepine, or THC intake. When I read trip reports on narcotics, I, of course, understand it completely, but when I see pot or hashish in the ingredient list 80 per cent of the time and almost never as a conscious poly-drug or potentiation experiment, the experiment designer in me momentarily thinks, "Criminy -- not again"

Then there are the reasons and environment, and if the change it induces is so stark that continual use seems inevitable, it is probably a self-medication situation.

There is also the fact that there are people who eventually get sick of the high or "mature out of it" and drop the whole thing with relative ease.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

Wow, is the rate really that low? Almost every single person I know who has taken the opiate path to the point of oxy or heroin has become seriously addicted and either recovered eventually, is dead, or is still struggling/in jail/etc. I don't mean everyone who has tried opiates before, just the people who have graduated to heroin unless it was just like they tried heroin one or twice and were opiate-naive

That is the number given by the National Institute on Drug Abuse from the US. 23% of people who try heroin end up addicted.

I would imagine though that most of those who end up not addicted are not chippers but rather experimental users who just didn't take to it.

Personally I don't see what the big deal is about heroin. I know it's cliche around here but it seriously is "just another opiate." The reason it's the main one sold on the street is simply because it is more potent and profitable by weight compared to opium or morphine and this also means it's easier to smuggle.

I've tried a few batches and found it to be very "meh." Even when my junkie mates using the same batch thought it was good. But I only tried it during my oxy habit so perhaps that's why. Oxycodone is far more euphoric and I know plenty agree as in the US most addicts who started with oxy only turned to smack when oxy got too scarce and expensive, not because H is actually a superior drug.

Then again it could just be because the gear is bashed to shit. I'm pretty sure if I was given pharma grade diamorphine I'd be singing a different tune.

 

[cowardescent]

That is the number given by the National Institute on Drug Abuse from the US. 23% of people who try heroin end up addicted.

I would imagine though that most of those who end up not addicted are not chippers but rather experimental users who just didn't take to it.

Personally I don't see what the big deal is about heroin. I know it's cliche around here but it seriously is "just another opiate." The reason it's the main one sold on the street is simply because it is more potent and profitable by weight compared to opium or morphine and this also means it's easier to smuggle.

I've tried a few batches and found it to be very "meh." Even when my junkie mates using the same batch thought it was good. But I only tried it during my oxy habit so perhaps that's why. Oxycodone is far more euphoric and I know plenty agree as in the US most addicts who started with oxy only turned to smack when oxy got too scarce and expensive, not because H is actually a superior drug.

Then again it could just be because the gear is bashed to shit. I'm pretty sure if I was given pharma grade diamorphine I'd be singing a different tune.

Do you think opiate use can lead to homelessness/jail? That's what my mother says about any drug but alcohol.

To be fair, here in Ireland there are lots of junkies/knackers/and people unfortunately sleeping on the streets. Some of them smoke, drink alcohol, and even smoke weed. You say few get addicted to heroin but most people wouldn't believe that. The confirmation bias of seeing a homeless heroin/benzo/alcohol addict leads lots of people like my mother to believe that if you use drugs, your life is over.

I'd actually like to delve into the psychology of drug stigma. There are plenty of people my parents work for that use coke (become especially big here in Ireland) and alcohol on the weekends. Also my dad knows many who use coke. They aren't "bums" collecting social welfare, these people are workmates earning the same and sometimes even more than my parents. If that's the case, why are they close minded on me using drugs and have an anti-drug propaganda?

Someone did say here that immigrant kids are more strict because they are less financially stable/socially stable. I suppose it's right. My dad came to Ireland here alone. If he got into the coke life with his pals and got addicted, he'd lose his job and be homeless pretty soon. I suppose his workmates would have families here in Ireland to go to.

 

[Nicomorphinist]

Anything that puts economic pressure on people or has them at sixes and sevens with folks with inhumane agendas can lead to homelessness, gaol, Federal Pound Me In The Arse Prison, or sucking dick, stealing copper wire, or burning down houses for a living, and so on as a contingency. What happens, for example, if an adolescent has parents in a cult which does not believe in modern medicine, the school nurse gives her two tablets of paracetamol after she slips on some vomit in the corridor and bruises her funny bone, and upon hearing this, the parents kick her out, or they do the same because she likes to eat snatch? But also, if one is feckless and polyannaish in the wrong way and listens to the pump and dump mental defectives offering stock analysis for public consumption, never reading about economics, history, or technical analysis of market prices, they can wind up at the Bahnhof sucking dick for drug money. Same thing with other forms of gambling.

Biden Scores 800 Feet Of Copper Wire

WASHINGTON—Calling it a “major-ass haul” that would provide “some much-needed scratch,” Vice President Joe Biden reportedly scored over 800 feet of copper wire from a foreclosed home in the D.C. suburbs, White House sources confirmed Thursday.

www.theonion.com

 

[Wilson Wilson]

Do you think opiate use can lead to homelessness/jail? That's what my mother says about any drug but alcohol.

To be fair, here in Ireland there are lots of junkies/knackers/and people unfortunately sleeping on the streets. Some of them smoke, drink alcohol, and even smoke weed. You say few get addicted to heroin but most people wouldn't believe that. The confirmation bias of seeing a homeless heroin/benzo/alcohol addict leads lots of people like my mother to believe that if you use drugs, your life is over.

I'd actually like to delve into the psychology of drug stigma. There are plenty of people my parents work for that use coke (become especially big here in Ireland) and alcohol on the weekends. Also my dad knows many who use coke. They aren't "bums" collecting social welfare, these people are workmates earning the same and sometimes even more than my parents. If that's the case, why are they close minded on me using drugs and have an anti-drug propaganda?

Someone did say here that immigrant kids are more strict because they are less financially stable/socially stable. I suppose it's right. My dad came to Ireland here alone. If he got into the coke life with his pals and got addicted, he'd lose his job and be homeless pretty soon. I suppose his workmates would have families here in Ireland to go to.

I've actually worked in a half-way house full of addicts. Almost everyone in there was an addict of some sort. I can tell you right now that the alcoholics were worse than the smackheads. Psychologically it is the same, they are desperate for a fix, that's what addiction does to you. But physically alcoholism is far worse. I saw this one guy in particular, he had liver failure but still downed a litre of vodka in one go every day because otherwise he would be getting the shakes. The thing with alcoholics is they are at serious risk of seizures when they don't get a drink, and when they do they can get violent and unpredictable. With a heroin addict if they don't get a fix they feel sick but they are not in any actual physical danger from withdrawal. When they get a hit they just lay down and nod out.

I also speak to a few of the local homeless and trust me plenty of them are alcoholics. They will always be drinking and will ask you to buy them booze instead of food. They don't "do drugs" but they know what the cheapest way to get smashed at the local off-license is.

So yes alcoholism absolutely can lead to homelessness. No doubt in my mind about that. I have seen it first hand many times.

But then it is my view that it's less about the substance and more about the individual. The way those addicts use drugs (including alcohol) is very different from how I and indeed most people use them.

 

[polymath]

Alcohol causes a whole lot of unpleasant effects in addition to those which people are actually seeking when using it. And it's practically impossible to use alcohol heavily in an addict-like fashion without causing some kind of disturbance to others, regardless of whether you can really afford your level of drinking or have to resort to bumming money from others. Most of the problems caused by opiate use are related to the illegal status and the expensiveness in black market, which forces addicts to go shoplifting, robbing and so on. Also, the uncertain purity of street drugs and the presence of impurities causes overdoses and toxic effects that are a burden to the public health care system. An opiate high doesn't really prevent a person from doing most of the chores they could do when sober (washing dishes, doing laundry..), except at the height of the effects when they're nodding out. But driving a car isn't included unless one has a huge tolerance and only experiences a relief of withdrawal when taking their fix.

Being quite high on oral morphine and codeine right now when writing this, by the way...

 

[Hylight]

Do I have to read this whole thread. Um, yus i hate alcohol. Why is it even legal. And
it's poison. one reason.
Why can't I just have opiod for pain relief. it's
supposed to be a medicine and has a relevance for being useful for ongoing distress from pain.
I guess the alcohol crisis must be subdued and conquered.
Toxic joygarbage juse use.

 

[Xorkoth]

Personally I don't see what the big deal is about heroin. I know it's cliche around here but it seriously is "just another opiate." The reason it's the main one sold on the street is simply because it is more potent and profitable by weight compared to opium or morphine and this also means it's easier to smuggle.

I agree actually. I was addicted to opiates for 10 years and I only stopped at heroin for a little while. I settled on oral opium (from poppy seeds), the high was better and lasted an entire day. Then again I never injected. Kratom actually got me on opiates, I eventually moved on to stronger ones because it wouldn't work. It started as fun experimentation and became self-medication for an increasingly abusive relationship and financial stress (which was of course made worse by opiates).