Wim Hoff the iceman Holotropic breathing method for natural dmt release

[Jabberwocky]

Nothing wrong with a little DMT now and again, but I be hittin' that wim hof like every day and I feel great. Doing DMT every day is hardly sustainable. Plus, I've committed to 5 months of total sobriety, wim hof technique helps me experience the numinous every time I do my practices. Just sayin'. What's not to like?

 

[drseltsam]

David Nichols recently gave a talk about DMT and it's role in the human body. You can find it on youtube.

He argues that DMT does not play any role in conscious as the brain is not able to produce enough of it and the affinity of DMT towards the relevant receptors is too low. Personally, I find him highly convincing.

 

[jezpe]

Nothing wrong with a little DMT now and again, but I be hittin' that wim hof like every day and I feel great. Doing DMT every day is hardly sustainable. Plus, I've committed to 5 months of total sobriety, wim hof technique helps me experience the numinous every time I do my practices. Just sayin'. What's not to like?

Of course i agree with everything and who am i to say its not working/helping i just find it ridiculous that breathing techniques release more dmt.
GZ on sobriety Ive been from last december so 9 months. But ive done psychedelics and mdma during this time, bcos i find them extremely therapeutic and ive tried going full clean on everything and that dont work for me. mdma could be considered breaking sobriety but not for me. Im just glad ive gotten over all addictive drugs. This is my 10th day without smoking after 11 years too :D. All you need is give yourself some slack and find something interesting to do on your days. if its this then good for you.

 

[Schmitty]

No way

Does this really work? I looked at Wims breathing methods. I have seen DMT done. Can someone explain to me the real science behind why this works, if it even does work?. I mean I could just try it but id rather know before.

 

[swilow]

^There is no science backing up the claim that particular methods of breathwork releases endogenous DMT. The OP was making huge assumptions.

No doubt, breathing in weird/different ways will lead to an altered state of consciousness but it doesn't appear to have any relation to DMT. If anything, hyperventilation would probably cause adrenaline release through the fight or flight response. Your body effectively thinks its survival is under threat.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I watched the Vice documentary on the Wim Hof method and it was good.



Wim Hof makes the claim that this technique releases DMT in some of his videos. I agree with swilow, there is no evidence to back this up. The experience is qualitatively different from DMT as well, though not entirely different. It does produce an intense experience however. It takes 2 minutes of breathing to experience this so might as well try it. You'll see. The feeling reminds me more of nitrous than it does DMT. Has a strong vibrational-component to the experience. Good to lay down when doing this. When I learned this at a retreat 3 weeks ago they had us do a cold water immersion in a mountain stream. Was pretty intense. The cold water is a big part of the whole wim hof experience. I'm not a big fan of cold water myself so have been focusing just on the breathing since I got back from the retreat. Maybe I'll start taking cold showers one of these days. Thats what some of the people I went on the retreat with are doing

 

[Ismene]

Holotropic breathing was something - i forget his name..Stanislav Groff? - came up with after his wife banned him from using drugs. It's pretty weak and seems to be just a way Groff can talk about psychedelic effects without actually using any psychedelics. (And of course he could trademark holotropic breathing where he couldn't trademark psychedelics)

I've never felt any DMT naturally - and I've never heard any near death experience that was ever like DMT. DMT is pretty fucking recognisable - if the world is exploding around in colours and fractals it's probably DMT. Near death experiences arn't like that - this long dark tunnel bollocks is nothing like DMT.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

Hyperventilation will essentially lead to a deficit of carbon dioxide (hypocapnia) and respiratory alkalosis. It may remind some people of nitrous because of the similarity in parasthesias.. When inhaling nitrous our oxygen/carbon dioxide levels are often skewed. The parasthesias/tingles will be felt first in the extremities and face.

I think we would all label the "plastic bag over the head" game as pretty unhealthy.. I think this should be labeled as such too. I have no idea why people would claim DMT is responsible for these effects. The skeptical scientists seem to agree that DMT is present in extremely small, unnapreciable quantities and isn't responsible for jack squat.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I think we would all label the "plastic bag over the head" game as pretty unhealthy.

Comparing breathwork aimed at hyperoxygenation to putting a plastic bag over your head is absolutely ridiculous. You might want to reconsider that analogy. Yes, the oxygen and carbon dioxide ratios are disrupted during these breathing techniques and the CO2 in particular can lead to temporary symptoms of tetany. That's mostly due to forcing the exhale which a lot of novice breathers do. Your assessment of the health benefits is duly noted

It's pretty weak and seems to be just a way Groff can talk about psychedelic effects without actually using any psychedelics.

I suppose that's one way of looking at it. Breathing techniques like holotropic breathwork (Stanislav Grof)have been of tremendous help to people, myself included. I have experienced the most powerful experiences of my life during breathwork. The hallucinations weren't as intense if that's what you're saying, but the insights were lucid, clear and the impact profound. I suppose everyone making these claims is lying then? Wim Hof climbed Mt. Everest in shorts. Is he lying about that?

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

The effects you seem to be linking to "hyperoxygenation" are likely instead due to hypocapnia - oxygen saturation isn't really the concern. Going from 90-95% oxygen saturation to 100% oxygen saturation isn't producing these effects.

There are some potential acute health concerns with hypocapnia but I would be more concerned about the chronic effects of repeated hypocapnia.

See hypocapania related exacerbation of seizures and epileptiform activity
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15144426/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24396127
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8617175

See also the effects of hypocapania on cerebral blood flow http://stroke.ahajournals.org/content/3/5/566.long

http://journal.chestnet.org/article/S0012-3692(15)37978-2/fulltext

"We now briefly discuss several clinical situations in which hyperoxia-induced hypocapnia may paradoxically not improve—or even worsen—tissue oxygenation."


I just want to make sure that nobody thinks something like "I'm breathing a bunch of oxygen and oxygen is good for my brain so this breathing technique must be good for me". I appreciate that people can have experiences with this technique and I'm sure there is benefit to be derived for some, but as with all things its not without risk. Repeated cerebral vasoconstriction/ischemia could carry risks that vary from person to person - a very fit, active person may experience less risk. Others may be more vulnerable to repeated cerebral vasoconstriction.

 

[swilow]

Wim Hof climbed Mt. Everest in shorts. Is he lying about that?

Better to say that he climbed on Mt. Everest in shorts. He was 2km from the summit so yes, he lied about that, and doing that in shorts is utter foolishness.

What do you think of the people who have allegedly died from his techniques?

He's doing this stuff for fame and money imo. Humans are capable of doing all sorts of amazing things, like setting oneself on fire while meditating as protest, but that doesn't mean everyone can or should do them.

Claiming any relationship between DMT and breathing is pseudoscience. Snake oil salesmen are still out there.

 

[Jabberwocky]

The papers are interesting Cotcha, thanks, I bookmarked them. I don't argue that hypocapnia can be induced by this breathing. Like I said, technique actually matters here. If your in-breath is deep and your out-breath is very relaxed the hypocapnia is kept at bay. I do intense one hour sessions of this breathing every week and I rarely develop any tetany. When first started breath work of this nature I was likely to force the exhale (like blowing out candles) and I would get tetany pretty bad during a session, which can be slightly unpleasant. So my point is, how one breaths definitely matters. I was unaware that vasoconstriction to cerebral blood flow was a consequence of this breathing. They said in one of the papers that medically induced hypocapnia decreases blood flow to the brain by 7%. However, the blood is more oxygenated. Not clear how they can claim the tissue is being starved of oxygen by those numbers. It's worth pointing out that people are laying down or sitting when they are doing this breath work and so in a state with minimal need of oxygen.

Comparing this to a plastic bag over ones head is a bit alarmist don't you think. Especially since the plastic bag over the head would induce hypercapnia. As for the concentration of oxygen in the blood, it has profound effects on the body. I can hold my breath for over 3 minutes after 2 minutes of Wim hof breathing before experiencing the need to breath. I cannot hold my breath that long without the breath work.

I appreciate that people can have experiences with this technique and I'm sure there is benefit to be derived for some, but as with all things its not without risk. Repeated cerebral vasoconstriction/ischemia could carry risks that vary from person to person - a very fit, active person may experience less risk. Others may be more vulnerable to repeated cerebral vasoconstriction.

Yes, the experiences and benefits are noteworthy indeed. The therapeutic benefits are claimed by many and have also been studied. I'm glad you are considering these as well as the claimed dangers of breathing this way, including the healing of chronic emotional and physical problems in some cases. I have yet to hear about anyone suffering injury or consequences from this breathing technique and it is practiced by many, including the old and young, though I am not saying nobody has ever been injured by breathing this way. I certainly wouldn't go deep water diving after a hyperventilating. I wouldn't drive a car while hyperventilating. Since reading your papers I'll add counter-indications for sufferers of febrile seizures and strokes to that list. As for my enthusiasm for the breathing, it is untarnished and I still would recommend it enthusiastically to anyone interested.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Better to say that he climbed on[/] Mt. Everest in shorts. He was 2km from the summit so yes, he lied about that, and doing that in shorts is utter foolishness.

What do you think of the people who have allegedly died from his techniques?

He's doing this stuff for fame and money imo. Humans are capable of doing all sorts of amazing things, like setting oneself on fire while meditating as protest, but that doesn't mean everyone can or should do them.

Claiming any relationship between DMT and breathing is pseudoscience. Snake oil salesmen are still out there.

I know you don't like the breath work, I was wondering when you'd chime in swilow with a negative remark. We've had this discussion before.

You can question Wim Hof's motives for doing this and the impressiveness of his feats and you are welcome to do so. He has 26 world records and routinely invites average people to push their limits in ways they never thought possible. In 2007 he climbed to 6.7 kilometres (22,000 ft) altitude at Mount Everest wearing nothing but shorts and shoes, but failed to reach the summit due to a recurring foot injury. It would be disingenuous for him to lie about reaching the summit since he was being filmed, so not sure which lie you are talking about.

As for the people who have died as you claim from this breathing technique, I'd like to learn about it. Mind you, back it up with deaths from the actual breathing and not from the secondary effects like negligent facilitators or doing the technique in a place where you can drown. If you claim this technique is deadly I'd like to know where you got the claim from.

As for the creation of DMT, I too disagree with this claim. Certainly it doesn't have evidence to support it. The whole endogenous DMT thing is one of those things for which evidence is really inconclusive. It hasn't been disproven either. Many well respected scientists have made this claim. I can see how he might have extrapolated the powerful experiences this produces with some of the lore about endogenous DMT. Whatever dude, he's a non-scientist that doesn't hang out on Bluelight everyday. Maybe he read Strassmans book.

Maybe one day you'll explain to me why you hate the breath work so much? I mean, have you tried it and had a bad experience, or you are bored with me talking about it? What gives?

 

[swilow]

I don't "hate" breathwork. Our previous disagreement was because you claimed it could positively impact the cancer of a fellow bluelighter, and implied that not breathing incorrectly was causal in cancer. You said that to the actual individual, I found that offensive. I still do. But, I don't especially care if you think I'm being negative, I'm trying to be realistic.

You said he climbed Mt. Everest and he didn't. He didn't actually get to the deathzone where oxygen levels are low enough to cause cell death. His achievement is still remarkable, but it seems foolish to me. Other people, like Messner, have summitted Everest without oxygen, and he almost died doing it. He was an experienced mountaineer, is Wim Hoff?

I agree, I don't know if anybody died from his techniques. I should have said that they died using his techniques. It was clumsy wording, I apologise for leading to that misinterpretation.

I'm extremely extraordinarily cautious of extreme and extraordinary claims, particularly ones that csn be fatal if used by untrained or unlucky people, and I think we all should be prudent about such things. I respect what Stan Grof was doing because it appeared to be about allowing access to altered states without ingesting potentially dangerous drugs, but I think Wim Hoff is more about setting rather ridiculous world records than helping people. That's all.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I don't "hate" breathwork. Our previous disagreement was because you claimed it could positively impact the cancer of a fellow bluelighter, and implied that not breathing incorrectly was causal in cancer. You said that to the actual individual, I found that offensive.

Yeah, I remember that incident rather well. You make it sound like I said to someone suffering from cancer that their breathing was the cause of their cancer. I said no such a thing nor do I believe such a thing and it surprises me you understood that. It is I who should be offended by your intrusive misunderstanding at the time. I recommended a breathwork modality as many other doctors have done to someone suffering from cancer. I provided evidence of doctors having done so. Your apology for the incident offered me at the time feels insincere since here you are going at it again.

After years of drug abuse and pushing the envelope with altered states I have been completely sober as of late and the breathwork has been very helpful in helping me feel energetic, alive and free of depression. The intensity of the breathwork fills that experiential need I have for intense experiences and is very important to my functioning after overdoing it on dissociatives daily. You were never concerned when I shared my drug experiences then, thanks for your concern now about my breathing deep breaths of air.

As for the Mt. Everest, yeah, I saw footage of him on Mt Everest in his shorts, I assumed he got to the top. That was my mistake. I did a google search and learned he didn't make it to the top because of a foot injury. It would be more honest to say he attempted to summit Mt. Everest in shorts. As for whether Wim Hof's agenda is breaking silly world records as opposed to helping people, you should check out his interviews and his personal statements and see if that character assessment holds up against his words on the subject. From many interactions with you in the P&S I've come to understand that you insist on proof when people make unconventional claims, so here is a guy who backs up what he says with endurance feats and by opening up his methods to science. He recognizes the need to appease the skeptics. Yet now you call them silly world records and appeal to anything that would defame his character and intentions.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

They said in one of the papers that medically induced hypocapnia decreases blood flow to the brain by 7%. However, the blood is more oxygenated. Not clear how they can claim the tissue is being starved of oxygen by those numbers. It's worth pointing out that people are laying down or sitting when they are doing this breath work and so in a state with minimal need of oxygen.

Hey there Levels,

I think there could be several complicating factors regarding the brain's cerebral blood flow and utilization of oxygen, and the downstream consequences of disruption of those systems and pH alterations.

The first thing that should probably be discussed is Bohr's Effect, wherein carbon dioxide essentially helps the tissues utilize oxygen (we shall note the difference here between saturated blood oxygen levels and tissue utilization of oxygen, the latter of which is increased by having some carbon dioxide present).

The second complicating factor to note is that the downstream consequences of ischemia have largely to do with disruption of active ion pumps like the ATP dependent sodium-potassium pump. A main cause of cell death in stroke is not directly due to the ischemia but rather due to the failure of such pumps as they are deprived of energy (some of these pumps can use up more than 50% of a neurons energy).

As the pumps fail, the neuron's excitability increases and downstream neurotransmitter release is increased - a lot of the cell death in stroke is actually due to excitotoxicity from excess release of excitatory transmitters such as glutamate. Some of these pumps are known to be pH sensitive as well. My guess is that the effects of this breathing technique have to due with alterations in function of these ion pumps, for example resulting in glutamate release in cortex.

The antidepressant effects of ketamine are seemingly thought to be largely due to glutamate release in cortex, but there are some safety concerns there as well. Specifically regarding a set of neurons known as parvalbumin positive GABA interneurons - these neurons are particularly sensitive to excitotoxicity and there can also be dysfunction induced by glutamate that isn't limited to excitotoxicity.

Ketamine seems to be able to reduce these neuron's expression of parvalbumin and GAD67 (an enzyme that helps the neurons synthesize GABA) and while this seems to play some role in ketamine's antidepressant effects, it can also play a role in its psychotomimetic effects (parvalbumin/GAD67 expression issues are noted in those with mental illness like schizophrenia as well).

Comparing this to a plastic bag over ones head is a bit alarmist don't you think. Especially since the plastic bag over the head would induce hypercapnia. As for the concentration of oxygen in the blood, it has profound effects on the body. I can hold my breath for over 3 minutes after 2 minutes of Wim hof breathing before experiencing the need to breath. I cannot hold my breath that long without the breath work.

Part of what I meant there is that this seems to be the kind of thing somebody would do to get high when they run out of drugs. If the technique and experiences are therapeutic then there is certainly wiggle room in my opinion. Every therapy modality and drug is different, and this technique must have a unique risk-benefit ratio just like all other therapies. However, I'm pretty quick to point out the risks of all therapy modalities, so I hope it doesn't seem like I have it out for this technique in particular.

Regarding being able to hold your breath much longer after hyperventilation - I think this can be explained without having to invoke some sort of increased oxygenation of brain tissue type explanation. Respiratory drive in particular is a funny thing. Carbon dioxide increases respiratory drive via effects on the brainstem and I suspect that people would be able to hold their breath for much longer during hypocapnia - which I believe you are experiencing regardless of whether you go full-tetany mode or not.

Its possible that hyperventilation related increases in the ability to hold the breath have very little to do with oxygen levels and everything to due with decreased carbon dioxide mediated activation of respiratory drive.

 

[Jabberwocky]

thanks Cotcha, appreciate the lesson in respiration and the interesting theory about glutamate release during the breath work. It was an interesting read. I haven't heard the glutamate hypothesis before but it kinda fits with my experience of it. I used to combine the breath work with nitrous a while back (breath intensely for 15 minutes then inhale some nitrous) and I would routinely get breakthroughs without any other substances in my system. Typically I need strong psychedelics or dissociatives in my system to get breakthroughs on nitrous. It may also explain why I've started doing the Wim Hof breathing technique every day as I adjust to life without dissociatives.

I agree hypocapnia is definitely a factor regarding breath holding, but the story is likely more complicated. I found a study on this:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1113/expphysiol.2005.031625/full

Breath-hold duration is almost doubled by breath-holding with hyperoxic gas mixtures (Fig. 5c), or by preceding breath-holding by voluntary or mechanical hyperventilation to lower Pmath formula levels

To a first approximation your hypocapnia hypothesis is reasonable and supported by experiments. A more detailed analysis of the problem reveals that breath holding breakpoint is a more complex functions of partial pressure levels of arterial blood gases and other factors (as detailed in paper)

The simplest ‘single variable’ hypotheses based on either pressure levels of arterial blood gases or lung volume can be ruled out. Strictly, hypotheses based on various combinations of blood gases with lung volume (Mithoefer, 1965) cannot be excluded, but the complexity of multiple variable hypotheses makes them difficult to test scientifically.

The paper goes through the experimental history of studying this problem.

 

[swilow]

^Does the breathwork cause any anxiety? I associate parathesia with anxiety but my curiousity is piqued...

 

[Wiserthanearlier]

Im gonna reread this when i can in better state to absorb, however, as a long term, widely experienced, poly drug user, i have always been impressed with the state of mind induced with simple breathing techniques.

Some states, far equal or outweigh some psychedelic states.

But it is so apples and trucks, its not quantifiable.

 

[Xorkoth]

I did once try a technique that a friend wanted me to try, where I hyperventilated myself by breathing deeply and rapidly for several minutes. By the end I had a really interesting buzz. He told me I wouldn't need to breathe for quite a while afterwards, and he was right. Totally comfortably, I didn't breathe for over 2 minutes. I felt pretty great afterwards really, energetic and light.