Will taking Kratom before Suboxone cause precipitated withdrawal?

[Ready2LiveAgain]

Hey all,

First time poster, but I’ve read many posts on the site in the past for opiate detox advice.

I have searched, but have not been able to find an exact answer to the question I have.

I am starting detox today (about 10 hours in so far), from a 1-2 gram a day Fentanyl binge.

I took some Kratom this morning, and plan on taking more Kratom throughout the day until around the 24-30 hour mark (since taking Fentanyl), to then safely take Suboxone to avoid any precipitated withdrawals.

My question is, does anyone know if taking Kratom before Suboxone can also cause precipitated withdrawals? Please let me know your thoughts / experiences with taking suboxone AFTER kratom.

Your help and insight is greatly appreciated!!

Also, my apologies if this is not the correct thread, I was not sure exactly where best to post. Please let me know if it should be moved to another thread.

 

[Nicomorphinist]

How long was the fentanyl binge and what was the route of administration?

Unless you are already in Stage I or II withdrawal, precipitated withdrawal is a possibility and at any case you are not going to get the full use of the Suboxone for its intended purpose. Unless you were wearing a bunch of patches, the fentanyl is going to burn off quickly enough that the time in those levels of withdrawal is going to be very brief.

 

[Ready2LiveAgain]

How long was the fentanyl binge?

About 6 months ? I had been doing about 3-4 grams a day and then tapered down to 2 and then 1 over the last month or so.

I’ve done the detox many times before, but my real concern this time is if the kratom that I’m taking today to help ease the withdrawals until it’s safe to take suboxone will have any negative effects.

I would assume kratom would not be strong enough to cause precipitated withdrawals but ya never know...

 

[Ready2LiveAgain]

I was snorting it this go around.

Do you know if taking kratom directly before suboxone can cause precipitated withdrawals?

 

[Nicomorphinist]

About 6 months ? I had been doing about 3-4 grams a day and then tapered down to 2 and then 1 over the last month or so.

I’ve done the detox many times before, but my real concern this time is if the kratom that I’m taking today to help ease the withdrawals until it’s safe to take suboxone will have any negative effects.

I would assume kratom would not be strong enough to cause precipitated withdrawals but ya never know...

Depending on the route of administration of the fentanyl there are several possibilities, I suppose . . . going back on a fractional dose of fentanyl (if it is not the patches being used as patches) will give you a much briefer and more predictable early withdrawal than kratom I would think . . . since an IR dose of fentanyl can last as short as 30 minutes in someone with a tolerance and depending on metabolism, I would think you could induct the Suboxone the moment you feel the tension, feverishness, nose drip, or whatever the first indisputable narcotic withdrawal symptom is.

Fentanyl patches with the depot of drug they create in the subcutaneous fat, and kratom lasting a long time for biochemical reasons, are going to leave you with the choice of precipitated withdrawal which will resolve quickly, or the longer run for enough of the narcotic to wash out so you can start the buprenorphine without the precipitated withdrawal.

Did you actually have withdrawal symptoms when you started the kratom or was it purely preemptive? If you slapped dozens of Durogesic/Chronogesic/Duragesics on every day for several months, there is an outside possibility that the withdrawal syndrome will proceed to Stage 0 towards the end the first day, the stage which is essentially the euphoria having simply ebbed away, and stay there for days to weeks.

 

[Nicomorphinist]

I was snorting it this go around.

Do you know if taking kratom directly before suboxone can cause precipitated withdrawals?

If you can feel the opioid agonist effects of the kratom, the buprenorphine is going to precipitate some level of withdrawal unless you let the kratom wash out. Buprenorphine is a competitive partial agonist of the μ opioid receptor and an antagonist of the κ and δ opioid receptors . . . it is going to be comprehensive, and essentially unavoidable, except by letting early withdrawal set in naturally rather than precipitating it, but if it has been a day since stopping snorting fentanyl, it probably wouldn't be full-blown.

 

[negrogesic]

1-2 grams of fentanyl a day? If that is even 10% pure, that is quite a bit of fentanyl.

As to your question...I don't know. Kratom is a partial agonist (and feels like it precipitate withdrawal itself), so perhaps buprenorphine wouldn't precipitate withdrawal in the same fashion, but who knows. However, as was mentioned, if your taking enough to feel it, then its probably enough to feel buprenorphine kick off of the receptor. That said kratom is short acting so i feel like you wouldn't have to wait too long before being able to take the buprenorphine...

 

[OpiateKiller]

1-2 grams of fentanyl a day? If that is even 10% pure, that is quite a bit of fentanyl.

As to your question...I don't know. Kratom is a partial agonist (and feels like it precipitate withdrawal itself), so perhaps buprenorphine wouldn't precipitate withdrawal in the same fashion, but who knows. However, as was mentioned, if your taking enough to feel it, then its probably enough to feel buprenorphine kick off of the receptor. That said kratom is short acting so i feel like you wouldn't have to wait too long before being able to take the buprenorphine...

No one can consume 1 gram of fentanyl a day, the max dose realistically would be 5 mg for someone with a monster tolerance.

I wouldn’t be worried about the Kratom at all my friend just make sure you wait long enough for the fent to be gone because of you don’t you’ll sure as hell regret it.

I’d say push it to 48 hours personally

 

[negrogesic]

No one can consume 1 gram of fentanyl a day, the max dose realistically would be 5 mg for someone with a monster tolerance.

I wouldn’t be worried about the Kratom at all my friend just make sure you wait long enough for the fent to be gone because of you don’t you’ll sure as hell regret it.

I’d say push it to 48 hours personally

Sure, perhaps not a gram, but I could see instances where individuals are using ~100mg of pure fentanyl a day. Years ago in my utter recklessness i used to inject the diluted contents of 100ug/hr duragesic patches (which actually contain 16.8mg of fentanyl, not 7.2mg) with a 10cc syringe (my tolerance was massive). I can still remember vividly the taste and the sharp burning sensation behind the tongue after introducing the diluted gel into the bloodstream (please nobody attempt this, it is very unsafe for a number of reasons).

Seeing how I was injecting nearly 20mg at a time, I could imagine a GFTI (Greater Fiend Than I) easily working this up to 100mg/day using pure powder.
"3-4 grams" as being attested to here, not so much however...

 

[Lorne???]

PW’s would be minor. Just wait 7-8hrs after your last dose and you will be in the clear, Sir

 

[OpiateKiller]

Sure, perhaps not a gram, but I could see instances where individuals are using ~100mg of pure fentanyl a day. Years ago in my utter recklessness i used to inject the diluted contents of 100ug/hr duragesic patches (which actually contain 16.8mg of fentanyl, not 7.2mg) with a 10cc syringe (my tolerance was massive). I can still remember vividly the taste and the sharp burning sensation behind the tongue after introducing the diluted gel into the bloodstream (please nobody attempt this, it is very unsafe for a number of reasons).

Seeing how I was injecting nearly 20mg at a time, I could imagine a GFTI (Greater Fiend Than I) easily working this up to 100mg/day using pure powder.
"3-4 grams" as being attested to here, not so much however...

True that my friend. I actually received fent powder for a while and I put them into the 30 mL vape juice bottles at 100 mg per bottle so each 20 drops equaled 3.33 mg of fent.. needless to say I definitely dropped a few full eye droppers a few times

 

[OpiateKiller]

PW’s would be minor. Just wait 7-8hrs after your last dose and you will be in the clear, Sir

This is god awful advice. Just because fentanyl has a short half life DOES not mean it’s off your receptors. My friend pissed dirty for fentanyl for 8 days post use, I watched it happen. I would at the minimum go 48, better off going 72. 8 hours would 110% send you into full blown death

 

[Ready2LiveAgain]

Thank you for the responses.

To be fair it was 3-4 grams of a heroin/fent mix but these days dealers use more and more fent in the mix so it really is mostly fent.

As an update, I took 10 red bali kratom capsules about 10 hours after my last fent use along with a 1mg benzo. Felt relatively fine for most of the day (runny nose, lethargic, the shits), but overall not horrible.

I started to read up on the Bernese Method, and so around 20 hours since last fent use I took a very small suboxone sliver (maybe 0.25), and felt fine. I then followed it with a very small bump of fent (maybe ~.3), and had zero PWD! Just slight hot/cold chills and body aches but very mild.

I plan to take another benzo tonight with some gabapentin to sleep for a few hours hopefully.

In the AM I am going to take another micro dose of suboxone, and then another very small fent bump.

My plan is to slowly increase the suboxone over the next few days while slowly decreasing the fent until I can feel comfortable just with the subs.

From what I have read, allowing the fent & sub to be “roommates” initially without having the sub entirely kick out the fent all at once has worked for many people, and although only 1 day in so far it seems to be working. I still am able to eat and function (low energy), but that’s really about it.

Really hoping this works because I’ve gone through the nightmare of PWD’s too many times, and they had continued to fuel my fent abuse out of fear.

If this works it really could be a great new way for people to also avoid PWD’s by easing into the transition instead of making the abrupt painful switch.

 

[Zonxx]

How long was the fentanyl binge and what was the route of administration?

Unless you are already in Stage I or II withdrawal, precipitated withdrawal is a possibility and at any case you are not going to get the full use of the Suboxone for its intended purpose. Unless you were wearing a bunch of patches, the fentanyl is going to burn off quickly enough that the time in those levels of withdrawal is going to be very brief.

out of curiosity, what do you determine to specifically be stage 2's symptoms? i've always either been in early wd or fullblown sick i'm pretty sure ive never been in the middle ground or at least long enough to warrant me noticing

 

[Lorne???]

Lorne??? said:
PW’s would be minor. Just wait 7-8hrs after your last dose and you will be in the clear, Sir

Opiatekiller, I said 7-8hrs after his last kratom dose. I am not an idiot. Read my replies more closely...

True that my friend. I actually received fent powder for a while and I put them into the 30 mL vape juice bottles at 100 mg per bottle so each 20 drops equaled 3.33 mg of fent.. needless to say I definitely dropped a few full eye droppers a few times

This is god awful advice. Just because fentanyl has a short half life DOES not mean it’s off your receptors. My friend pissed dirty for fentanyl for 8 days post use, I watched it happen. I would at the minimum go 48, better off going 72. 8 hours would 110% send you into full blown death

 

[Lorne???]

Remember he has already started kratom, but maybe I should have been more clear. Sorry about that

 

[Ready2LiveAgain]

Again to be clear, I was doing 3-4 gram bags of dope which while yes, likely not entirely Fentanyl it certainly is the case more and more here in New England. When fent was first introduced it was H with fent sprinkled in, then it went to maybe 1/3 of bag being fent and nowadays it can easily be 50% fent and I’ve heard stories of dealers now selling just entirely fent and saying that it’s H.

Wish there was an easy way at home to test your dope....maybe one day ?

 

[Zep1]

Thank you for the responses.

To be fair it was 3-4 grams of a heroin/fent mix but these days dealers use more and more fent in the mix so it really is mostly fent.

As an update, I took 10 red bali kratom capsules about 10 hours after my last fent use along with a 1mg benzo. Felt relatively fine for most of the day (runny nose, lethargic, the shits), but overall not horrible.

I started to read up on the Bernese Method, and so around 20 hours since last fent use I took a very small suboxone sliver (maybe 0.25), and felt fine. I then followed it with a very small bump of fent (maybe ~.3), and had zero PWD! Just slight hot/cold chills and body aches but very mild.

I plan to take another benzo tonight with some gabapentin to sleep for a few hours hopefully.

In the AM I am going to take another micro dose of suboxone, and then another very small fent bump.

My plan is to slowly increase the suboxone over the next few days while slowly decreasing the fent until I can feel comfortable just with the subs.

From what I have read, allowing the fent & sub to be “roommates” initially without having the sub entirely kick out the fent all at once has worked for many people, and although only 1 day in so far it seems to be working. I still am able to eat and function (low energy), but that’s really about it.

Really hoping this works because I’ve gone through the nightmare of PWD’s too many times, and they had continued to fuel my fent abuse out of fear.

If this works it really could be a great new way for people to also avoid PWD’s by easing into the transition instead of making the abrupt painful switch.

Damn! Let us know if that works 4 u, sounds pretty groovy so far but how about precipitated WD mixing the sub w the fent though? Thats kinda where im a lil mixed up..or is it that ur not taking enough of either t get u sick?

 

[Zep1]

No one can consume 1 gram of fentanyl a day, the max dose realistically would be 5 mg for someone with a monster tolerance.

I wouldn’t be worried about the Kratom at all my friend just make sure you wait long enough for the fent to be gone because of you don’t you’ll sure as hell regret it.

I’d say push it to 48 hours personally

 

[RippinItUp]

Since Fentanyl has such a short half-life, I'd suggest not taking anymore Kratom and wait for the Fentanyl W/Ds to kick in. Im sure you can handle a few hours of W/Ds before taking the Suboxone. If you don't, you may very likely end up in precipitated w/d's and thats going to be 10x worse than waiting a few hours in W/D before taking the Suboxone.