Will safe, enjoyable delirants ever exist? Is it possible? (2)

[Hans Meyer]

Runsacking the German part of EROWID, more coincidental I find the following sentence:
"Es gibt unter den Abood-Koerpern Stoffe, z. Bsp. Benzilsaeuredimethylpiperidylester, die ohne anticholinergische Wirkung zu besitzen, Sinnestaeuschungen hervorrufen. (12)"
English: "There are among the ABOOD-chemicals some compounds such as Dimethylpiperidylbenzilate, that produce halluzinations without beeing anticholinergic (12))."
https://www.erowid.org/lang/de/drug_reference/jb336.shtml
The author did not specified the exact isomer of that Dimethylpiperidylbenzilate. I could not find the appropriate given reference (12) and are not able for extensive recherches. One of the methyl is -I suppose-connected with the N of the piperidine, but where is the esterificated O (3- or 4-position) and the second methyl group, and which optical isomer is active in the desired sense?
OK I will do some more research using google scholar and post if I find something new on that issue.
Hans

 

[DotChem]

Hard to say which isomer of Dimethylpiperidylbenzilate the authors refer to.. For sure, one of the methyl is probably on the piperidine nitrogen (a tertiary amine is almost always required for cholinergic activity). Pretty much all anticholinergics are tertiary amines. Secondary or primary amines are not or very much less active.
The other methyl can be anywhere: either on the piperidyl ring or on one of the phenyl rings of the benzilate (giving α,tolyl-α-phenyl-α-hydroxyacetic acid piperidinyl esters..etc. The ester is via the carboxy of benzilic acid and the hydroxy of hydroxypiperidine (hard to tell on which position of the piperidine the OH is..from the ref. maybe the German nomenclature implies it). Here is the basic N-Methyl piperidyl benzilate:

My guess is they're referring to tolyl substituted benzilates delirients, ie one of the Phenyl is substituted by a Me.. but who knows?
Now as for safe use of cholinergic hallucinogenic delirients for recreational purpose (not as military incapacitating agents like Quinuclidinyl benzilate BZ this here), IMHO one of the safest would be the cholinergic muscarinic M2/M3 antagonists like tolterodine (detrol). It is a pharma used to treat urinary incontinence but at prescribed dose for this purpose (or a bit higher) it is a full blown hallucinogen ..cholinergic hallucinations like folie-a-deux type vivid real hallucinations different from psychedelic, and kappa agonists .. only problem is drymouth and pissing retention...
Edit: here is the structure of detrol (tolterodine) for comparison

 

[Solipsis]

It's really hard to dig up this info somehow but from what I gather it's JB-340, the quaternary ammonium: 1,1-dimethyl-3-piperidyldiphenyl glycolate derived salt (1-methyl-3-piperidyldiphenyl glycolate methobromide). And possibly some other ammonium derivatives of this JB-340.

I guess the ammonium charge will be what doesn't allow it to pass the BBB properly, accounting for the strong anticholinergic effects being restricted to the PNS. Still, effects are supposed to be exerted on the diencephalon (resulting in these sensory disturbances mentioned) despite the pharmacodynamics originating in the PNS?

Note that this is what I have pieced together from various things like dodgy google books transcriptions among other things... it is definitely not claimed like that explicitly in one place, or I'd happily provide the source.