Kratom Will naltrexone PERMANENTLY kill the kratom high?

[Mycophile]

So, I've been taking 50mg Naltrexone most days for the past couple years cause it blocks alcohol and kratom and I wanted to cut down and it's worked. I just figured that whenever I want to get drunk or high, stop taking it for 5 days and then I can, because that's what my psychopharmacologist had told me years ago, that the wash out period for naltrexone is only about 5 days.

Over a year ago I actually went a whole year on naltrexone without drinking or kratom, and then when I went off my kratom and went back to using it it got me just as high as it always did, then I stopped and got back on the naltrexone and it worked perfectly.

I should also note that I had a period for a whole month where kratom totally stopped working for me BEFORE I EVER TOOK NALTREXONE, and that was a few years ago. Once again, i hadn't taken kratom in like a year, then when i started using it again it only put me in a bad mood and it took about a month before it finally started having positive effects again.

So this time, starting back in May, I used kratom on and off, then went back on naltrexone, on and off that several times throughout the summer to take kratom and drink, and while alcohol has always worked fine, I haven't been able to "get the kratom magic back" the entire summer!!! It's a REAL bummer. Sometimes it has VERY mild pleasant effects, but not the great euphoria I always loved.

Some might say it's the vendor, so I tried a different vendor and it's worked SOMEWHAT better, but still not well enough. Others would suggest potentiators, but really, they just make it harder to find my sweet spot, because what I have found was that I think the naltrexone lowered my tolerance, because in the past 2-2.5 grams was always a good starting dose, but this time around, 2 grams gives me the wobbles, and it's only doses somewhere between like 1.50--1.85 that have any good effect, and if I even take 2 grams I feel bad, and I also feel bad if I take too many potentiators, and I found a few which worked like tumeric, black seed oil, mucuna pruriens, etc.

So, I'm just worried now that somehow the naltrexone has PERMANENTLY affected how my brain reacts to kratom and opioids so that I can NEVER get high off kratom again, which would REALLY upset me.

But is that really possible?? I mean, we all know it blocks opioid effects, and we know it can lower tolerance, but shouldn't pretty much any and all opioids still be able to have maximum effects WEEKS after I've stopped taking the naltrexone?? I mean it's not in my system AT ALL. And yet, my kratom experiences are so mild it's not even been worth taking.

Will this ever change and is there anything I can do about it? Because I like how taking naltrexone most of the time keeps me on the straight and narrow, but the whole point for me was long periods of sobriety where i can then go back to doing whatever drugs I want afterwards. Could I have been wrong and could I be PERMANENTLY effecting how my opioid receptors work by taking naltrexone?

I really hope not. I mean, I think even as far as opioids go that kratom is strange, and many have mentioned its effects changing for them and it mixing badly with certain substances, and like I said, I had prior experiences where kratom stopped working.

Any advice on how to get that magic back would be appreciated.

 

[plumbus-nine]

No, no drug will or can have permanent effects, don't worry about that.
As naltrexone is very potent and active in the microgram area it's possible that you just have to wait a few days longer for your body to excrete all of it.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

2g of kratom gives you the wobbles? Are you on any other medication?

 

[plumbus-nine]

2g of kratom gives you the wobbles? Are you on any other medication?

Yeah, I'm jealous too. I can take 5 times that amount to get threshold effects, some relaxation but that's it.

 

[Mycophile]

2g of kratom gives you the wobbles? Are you on any other medication?

Yes, I'm on klonopin and prozac, but neither of those have ever negatively affected my kratom experiences before.

The other thing is that I drink too much caffeine, like 4 cups of coffee and 2 cups of tea a day, often within a short period like a few hours, so that's always with my kratom. I don't like caffeine's negative effects on me and I want to quit, but I sort of have OCD and one of my weird compulsions is to drink too much caffeine. Another poster proposed that perhaps i've burnt out my adrenals with the caffeine and that could be causing the effect. Is that possible?

Like, it's weird, I never know what the right dose is for me, and I never know if I'm going to feel better if I eat first or don't, whether or not I should take potentiators etc.

Today I took 1.70 and I just feel like shit. I guess you'd call it opioid dysphoria, not the wobbles exactly but just shitty and tired and wish I hadn't taken it. I hadn't eaten anything before I took it and while it was starting to kick in I thought I was feeling good, but once 45 minutes had passed I just started feeling tired and shitty. I thought maybe eating would help, but it didn't. Other times eating seems to kill some of the euphoria, and I know many like to take kratom on an empty stomach.

Really, any day I take it I have no way of knowing how I'll feel, but the best case scenario lately has been a very mild high, and at the worst, I feel worse than if I hadn't taken it.

Now I honestly think I'm going to stop for quite a while after today, but still, I'd like to be able to feel good on kratom again at some point in the future when I do take it again.

Any guesses as to why this could be happening and why it's always so hard to find a good dosage and so easy to take too much?

 

[Mycophile]

Yeah, I'm jealous too. I can take 5 times that amount to get threshold effects, some relaxation but that's it.

There's nothing to be jealous of trust me. When I say I get "the wobbles" i mean I'm not enjoying myself, just feeling kind of sick and shitty and tired. I'm not sure if that's what most people mean by that term, but that's what I mean, like dizziness and nausea and tiredness.

It's like I can take 1.40 grams and feel like maybe that's not enough because I'm not getting much happening, and another 0.30 and all the sudden I feel like crap and get that feeling like I've taken too much. It's extremely difficult to even figure out what kind of dosage my brain/body wants or what my tolerance is, with an extremely narrow margin between maybe getting a few good feelings and just feeling like crap.

Also, generally speaking, taking any potentiators is just even more likely to make me feel like shit I've found, so I avoid them most of the time.

 

[Mycophile]

No, no drug will or can have permanent effects, don't worry about that.
As naltrexone is very potent and active in the microgram area it's possible that you just have to wait a few days longer for your body to excrete all of it.

That's good. So like, you don't think that the fact that I take naltrexone most days (of course not when on kratom or a few days after stopping to avoid precipitated withdrawals) couldn't have like permanently affected the way my brain responds to kratom and opioids somehow, even to the point that regardless of how long I've been off the naltrexone it would affect my highs?

And again, I once experienced something somewhat like this years ago even before I ever took naltrexone, where for like a month every kratom dose just made me feel bad. There's certainly something unusual about the way kratom can affect me, and I know I'm not the only one who feels it's unpredictable.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

perhaps i've burnt out my adrenals with the caffeine and that could be causing the effect. Is that possible?

I've never looked into caffeine's pharmacology, but I know high doses can have pretty nasty effects.

Personally I love 1 or 2 cups of coffee with kratom, however if I go over that amount it starts making the kratom feel unpleasant. I get way overstimulated, agitated and dysphoric.

Kratom itself can be acutely dysphoric in people. Some people just react differently to it. It's hard to say exactly why, but I suspect it's due to its serotonin and dopamine antagonistic properties. (Similar to an antipsychotic, which makes people anhedonic)

For me, kratom's euphoric properties outweigh the side effects and it's quite pleasant, particularly with low tolerance to it.

 

[Mycophile]

I've never looked into caffeine's pharmacology, but I know high doses can have pretty nasty effects.

Personally I love 1 or 2 cups of coffee with kratom, however if I go over that amount it starts making the kratom feel unpleasant. I get way overstimulated, agitated and dysphoric.

Kratom itself can be acutely dysphoric in people. Some people just react differently to it. It's hard to say exactly why, but I suspect it's due to its serotonin and dopamine antagonistic properties. (Similar to an antipsychotic, which makes people anhedonic)

For me, kratom's euphoric properties outweigh the side effects and it's quite pleasant, particularly with low tolerance to it.

The caffeine could certainly be a factor. I do plan on trying to cut down so maybe at some point I'll find out if that's what it was.

I mean, I suppose the prozac could be related because I recently got back on that which I had been on for decades earlier (but I think that was before I took kratom) but before that I was on Lexapro, actually at a dose that my new doctor said was overly high and could be slightly dangerous, and as an SSRI Lexapro is quite closely related to prozac so I'm not quite sure how likely it is that I'd have felt kratom fine on too high a dose of Lexapro but not on prozac (I'm also not 100% sure I might not still have been on prozac when I first tried kratom years ago, but I THINK I'd gotten off it and was on Lexapro then.)

Do you think it's likely to be the prozac if I had no interference from the Lexapro, especially a dosage that my doctor said is actually TWICE the max of what anyone should be prescribed? I really hope not cause I can't get off prozac now.

But for years I got INCREDIBLE euphoria from kratom, but I have always found it to be a "fickle mistress", where I couldn't necessarily always anticipate what a good dose would be, and sometimes I'd miss the mark and feel like crap.

Like, whatever reason it is that this kind of thing happened to me years ago for a month proves that for some odd reason, kratom can at times have very differing effects for me. I would assume it's got to do with pharmacology and something that I just wouldn't understand.

But considering it USED to feel great for me, and that I have had periods like this before (just not as long lasting), do you think it's possible or likely that at some point it could start feeling good again?

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Well, all kratom strains are different, and each batch is different as well. I've noticed that older batches that have been sitting around for a few years tend to have much more side effects and dysphoria.

It could be the prozac if you are on an extremely high dose. I'm not sure, though. I haven't taken an SSRI in 15 years, and never with kratom. I don't have experience there.

 

[Mycophile]

Well, all kratom strains are different, and each batch is different as well. I've noticed that older batches that have been sitting around for a few years tend to have much more side effects and dysphoria.

It could be the prozac if you are on an extremely high dose. I'm not sure, though. I haven't taken an SSRI in 15 years, and never with kratom. I don't have experience there.

Yeah, I don't think it's the prozac.

Honestly, I think there's a good chance all the excessive caffeine with it could be a very large factor. Whether or not it's the only factor I don't know, but I do generally drink more caffeine in a short time period than I used to when I took Kratom, and you also said that the same thing happens to you if you have too much caffeine with your kratom.

I mean I know you can't know, but considering that kratom used to feel great for me, do you think there's a reasonable possibility that if I experimented enough with different strains, vendors, not drinking so much caffeine etc, that the euphoria could eventually come back?

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Yeah, just cut back on the caffeine (are you dependent on it?), switch up strains and vendors and see what happens.

 

[Mycophile]

Yeah, just cut back on the caffeine (are you dependent on it?), switch up strains and vendors and see what happens.

I'm VERY dependent on caffeine, yes.

Well, I won't be taking kratom for a while now, but hopefully at some point it starts feeling good again. I mean, if it did before, and nothing seriously major has changed, and I've even gotten SOME good feelings from it lately (just not many) then I think I can assume that at some point it could possibly feel good again. I mean, it's not like I don't still have the same body and brain lol, so if it is capable of feeling good before I think it should be possible again.

Do you think maybe a less stimulating strain might help if I the problem has to do with too much stimulation? Like maybe a red might be better than a green or white? Cause I haven't used a red in a while. I just have this sense that if this was a normal opioid like oxy or hydro (though I don't generally use those, don't want to risk addiction) that I'd probably feel good. I think it could very possibly be related to the too much stimulation overall between the kratom and caffeine.

 

[deficiT]

Yes, I'm on klonopin and prozac, but neither of those have ever negatively affected my kratom experiences before.

The other thing is that I drink too much caffeine, like 4 cups of coffee and 2 cups of tea a day, often within a short period like a few hours, so that's always with my kratom. I don't like caffeine's negative effects on me and I want to quit, but I sort of have OCD and one of my weird compulsions is to drink too much caffeine. Another poster proposed that perhaps i've burnt out my adrenals with the caffeine and that could be causing the effect. Is that possible?

Like, it's weird, I never know what the right dose is for me, and I never know if I'm going to feel better if I eat first or don't, whether or not I should take potentiators etc.

Today I took 1.70 and I just feel like shit. I guess you'd call it opioid dysphoria, not the wobbles exactly but just shitty and tired and wish I hadn't taken it. I hadn't eaten anything before I took it and while it was starting to kick in I thought I was feeling good, but once 45 minutes had passed I just started feeling tired and shitty. I thought maybe eating would help, but it didn't. Other times eating seems to kill some of the euphoria, and I know many like to take kratom on an empty stomach.

Really, any day I take it I have no way of knowing how I'll feel, but the best case scenario lately has been a very mild high, and at the worst, I feel worse than if I hadn't taken it.

Now I honestly think I'm going to stop for quite a while after today, but still, I'd like to be able to feel good on kratom again at some point in the future when I do take it again.

Any guesses as to why this could be happening and why it's always so hard to find a good dosage and so easy to take too much?

My guess would be the massive caffeine intake. Especially all during a short period of time taken with the kratom. 4 cups of coffee and 2 of tea is quite a lot of caffeine. I'm certainly not judging, I drink usually an energy drink and a cup of coffee every day, but I generally don't get many problems with it. I'll say the worst thing I could ever mix with kratom was alcohol for me.

If I were you, I would try either cutting back on coffee, or switching to decaf entirely, or maybe spreading out your consumption. You could kinda fool your body by taking a small amount of caffeine via a caffeine pill, and then just drink decaf instead. This could be a way to make sure you don't have a terrible caffeine withdrawal to add to your list of miseries, just taper down with caffeine pills.

I'm guessing the caffeine is synergizing with the kratom in a negative way.

 

[Mycophile]

My guess would be the massive caffeine intake. Especially all during a short period of time taken with the kratom. 4 cups of coffee and 2 of tea is quite a lot of caffeine. I'm certainly not judging, I drink usually an energy drink and a cup of coffee every day, but I generally don't get many problems with it. I'll say the worst thing I could ever mix with kratom was alcohol for me.

If I were you, I would try either cutting back on coffee, or switching to decaf entirely, or maybe spreading out your consumption. You could kinda fool your body by taking a small amount of caffeine via a caffeine pill, and then just drink decaf instead. This could be a way to make sure you don't have a terrible caffeine withdrawal to add to your list of miseries, just taper down with caffeine pills.

I'm guessing the caffeine is synergizing with the kratom in a negative way.

Yeah, I think the caffeine must be at least PART of the problem. Too bad I'm stopping Kratom for a while now (I have my reasons) so I can't run that experiment for a while, but I will at some point.

I have wanted to quit or at least get down to a small amount of caffeine for years, and it causes a really bad cycle with my klonopin which makes me tired, and which I'd also like to get off of. I'm probably going to have my psychiatrist help me very slowly wean off Klonopin while I attempt to use one of those caffeine tapering programs. I've got one that gets you from 3 cups to 0 in 4 weeks, but I drink more than 3 so I'd need to get down to 3 first.

Just out of curiosity, is there anyone else here who ever had kratom stop working well for them for a while and then eventually it did again, and if so, what were the factors involved? (I'm assuming this has happened to SOMEONE at some point...)