Bupe will kratom cause precipitated wd?

[darvocet21]

I couldn't agree with you more there!
I try to be very vocal about the war on drugs and the value some of these 'evil deadly illegal narcotics' do have for some people who use them.

I have treatment resistant depression, panic & anxiety and personality disorder. Only things that have ever made me feel normal were tramadol in the 300-400mg range, diacetylmorphine, hydrocodone, methadone & of course buprenorphine.

Unfortunately though because of buprenorphines long ass half life and partial agonism, it is a difficult drug to use once you're tolerant, as adjusting the dose (up and down) doesn't do much good, like it would with a shorter acting full agonist.

I think it sucks that we do not have this option to use morphine, diacetylmorphine, various opioids for mental health & even recreation. There is a lot of misinformation surrounding opioid overdose (especially the danger of 'heroin overdose') and I try to be as vocal about it as I can. They have done a good job demonizing opiates/opioids and any potentials they may have as medicines & have flooded our markets with shitty fentanyl (which can be deadly).

I'm always glad to see another person who understands, knows the literature and the facts and sees through all this drug war BS. Thank you for your insights!!

Some countries have already legalized & give addicts diacetylmorphine. They've seen overdose/death, crime & new addictions go way down. Why we have not implemented such a thing in our Western world is beyond me. I'm basically denied my right to take a medicine that helps me, emotionally, physically and even spiritually at times. A "criminal" for exploring my own bodies chemicals!

Which countries?

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Switzerland is among these countries but still diamorph substitution comes with heavy restrictions, one need to go there daily for infinite amount of time while they hand out morphine, bupe or methadone after just one positive urine sample and the spoken agreement to that it will be something one might have to stay on forever. It was almost too easy to get into substitution but the weekly appointments sucked. I can't imagine to be dependent on daily visits.

Buprenorphine's main benefit as well as problem is indeed its partial agonism. I tried up to 4mg/d and it did next to nothing for me while the full agonists take away each and any anxiety - I too have treatment resistant anxiety and depression, personality disorder is imo a flawed diagnosis where they put these people which don't fit into the other diagnosis. Like schizophrenia. Some fuck ass doc wanted to diagnose me with paranoid schizophrenia when I have none of the symptoms. They even wanted to inject me with Invega Sustenna - just look at the coming off threads here. Ugh. Never visited that doc again. Unfortunately it was in the clinic where I got my substitution - they didn't take me off but began to force me going daily. Then I moved to Mexico with one month worth of morphine, now it's five months and still some left but I'm not over withdrawal, just switched to Kratom, Pregabalin and Memantine.

Yeah, the war on drugs is bullshit and intoxicates the minds of people who don't know better about drugs. Even some addicts repeat that BS and see their habit as evil and support criminalization of dealers or even consuments. Indeed criminalization never solved anything, just see alcohol prohibition... they should sell all the stuff in pharmacies again like in old age of pharmacy "non addictive" heroin.

Overdoses would drop if people had access to pure stuff because then they'd know how much to use but nowadays it's Russian roulette to buy heroin off random people, bad luck and it contains fentanyl hotspots and you're dead. That's war on drugs in its purest. Fuck Nixon.

You are amazing!! Agree with everything you said!

Yes, they indeed have those shitty restrictions in Switzerland. Having to go to a clinic everyday is what prevents me from bothering with methadone, which would probably feel better than buprenorphine for me. I guess it's a start though. I hope to see diacetylmorphine legalization in my lifetime, but I'm pessimistic about it considering you are correct, that people are completely brainwashed and misinformed when it comes to many drugs.

Im not surprised they tried to push shitty antipsychotics on you. My sub doc is currently trying to do this, knowing damn well I already have myoclonic jerks. I don't need tardive dyskinesia ontop of it.

The war on drugs is a war on our minds! And on our freedom to feel, live and make decisions for our own body. But I fear we lost that right a long time ago, especially with the political climate and tyranny we are all living through right now.

I almost faced prison for growing 3 cannabis plants in my early 20's. I'll never forget it. Was treated like I had killed a bunch of people. It boils my blood knowing all the people who have lost their lives from prohibition when all they were doing was trying to self medicate.

I appreciate your insight friend! I wish you the total best! Keep spreading the word about how BS this whole prohibition on opioids is! Not enough people doing so right now!

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Which countries?

You can get on diacetylmorphine maintenance in Switzerland.

Heroin is legal in Portugal.

I believe the UK still has prescription diacetylmorphine for severe pain as well.

 

[Robby D]

I agree. Some of the alkaloids in kratom are related to coffee and are actually opioid antagonists.
I've tried all kinds of brands, capsules, extracts. Some of the extracts feel alright but they don't get anything close to an opiate for me, even with low tolerance.

I'm glad it works for other people, but I can't understand why it does nothing for me.
Not only does it not give me any opioid effects, but it also tears up my stomach with all that plant matter to digest. Having to redose that every few hours would be brutal on me.


Kratom worked for me ONCE back in 2012. This was when people were spiking kratom with o-desmethyltramadol. When that stopped, I noticed kratom no longer & to this day still does not produce even a quarter of a decent enough opioid effect in me to get a buzz, let alone replace something as strong as heroin, fent, bupe or methadone. I could see it maybe helping some after coming off bupe or something. But that's about it. Although I tried that a few years ago when I got bupe off the streets and it just barely helped with getting me up off my ass, but still didn't feel like an opioid.

Yeah for real bupe can be a nasty buzz too but still a whole lot better than Kratom!! And yeah as far as full agonist like morphine and Methadone( my personal favorite opiate) Kratom don’t hold a candle to those, but I never tried it when it had the O-tram in it. I do like a tramadol buzz though! I’d rather have a few tramadol than a hydrocodone 10 and that’s no shit!

 

[Robby D]

Yeah for real bupe can be a nasty buzz too but still a whole lot better than Kratom!! And yeah as far as full agonist like morphine and Methadone( my personal favorite opiate) Kratom don’t hold a candle to those, but I never tried it when it had the O-tram in it. I do like a tramadol buzz though! I’d rather have a few tramadol than a hydrocodone 10 and that’s no shit!

Opioid not opiate on the Methadone autocorrect got it wrong

 

[darvocet21]

You can get on diacetylmorphine maintenance in Switzerland.

Heroin is legal in Portugal.

I believe the UK still has prescription diacetylmorphine for severe pain as well.

I never been to Portugal or Switzerland. Maybe somebody who lives there can tell us. I know the Swiss had heroin assisted treatment at one point but it was not over-the-counter even in the pharmacy. Portugal decriminalized drugs but cannabis recreational use is still an infraction and you will have your dope taken away at the very least

 

[emkee_reinvented]

yeah there is about 7mg of 7-HO-M per capsule. Technically it says "less than 7mg" which is kinda weird but I am assuming it means around 7. Strange because they always list exact mitragynine content but every product that lists 7-HO-M says "less than X%" on it for that.



To my knowledge kratom hasn't ever caused any sort of dangerous overdose in humans. It does not depress breathing at all which is how opiates cause overdose deaths so I believe that is why. Not that you can't dose too much, you easily can, and it's unpleasant because it makes you feel nauseous and dizzy and dysphoric. But it's not dangerous.



Back when my opiate receptors were virgins and I did kratom in the traditional method (by brewing substantially larger doses of crushed leaf than when eating raw powder, in 2 x 20 minute simmering extractions, and discarding the leaf matter - using 12-18 gram doses, depending on tolerance level), I would get so high, it actually to this day was some of my absolute best opiate experiences and overall drug experiences of my life. I can't get that sort of high anymore, since I ruined my receptors over many years of kratom addiction followed by full agonist opiate addiction. But for those who are opiate naive, when dosing the traditional way (not consuming the leaf material seems to allow for substantially higher doses without the dizziness/shittiness setting in), kratom can produce a very euphoric and pleasurable high. it wasn't just me either, all of my friends I introduced to it absolutely loved it, it was a daily ritual we all looed forward to greatly. Every time for the first 6 months of using it, it felt similar to a cocaine rush on the come-up, we would start chatting nonstop and bouncing around the room. Then after an hour it would settle into a strong, semi-nodding opioid high, especially if you smoked some weed with it.

The first time I ever did it, I bought 10 grams from a head shop. No one knew what it was, and there were only a few reports on Erowid to go by. I brewed it up the traditional way (the only way I saw any reports of preparing it - toss and wash was not a thing then), drank it, and got in my friend's car to drive around and smoke weed. About 45 minutes in I realized I felt AMAZING, I was gushing to my friend about how amazing I felt and how this was some of the best I'd ever felt. I got really nauseous and he pulled over and I puked a couple of times, then kept feeling great for a few hours.

Wasn't the traditional method eating the shredded leaves in applesause?

Offcourse not, but that was how i did it the first time after a heavy dental procedure. Instant love developed between me and Kratom. Then 'tosh and wash' ending up dumping it in hot water.

My preferred method.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Yeah for real bupe can be a nasty buzz too but still a whole lot better than Kratom!! And yeah as far as full agonist like morphine and Methadone( my personal favorite opiate) Kratom don’t hold a candle to those, but I never tried it when it had the O-tram in it. I do like a tramadol buzz though! I’d rather have a few tramadol than a hydrocodone 10 and that’s no shit!

I totally feel you there! I too would take about a 200-400mg dose of tramadol over 10mg of hydrocodone, I think. lol Tramadol lasts much longer, especially if you know how to stagger it and are a good metabolizer.

Bupe use to offer a nice buzz when I first had it. It was very stimulating (although different from tramadol's stimulating properties... hell actually most opioids are stimulating to me in some way) But now here I am a few years later after having taken bupe every day and Im lucky if I even get a mood lift out of it. lol And even then, it's still preferable to krappy-kratom.

Maybe some people metabolize kratom differently than others? Wonder if that's been looked into. Or if a good 60% of them were never really into heavier opioids to begin with, so they don't have anything else to compare it to. They may have tried heavier opioids at one point, but maybe opioids just aren't for them either.

Opioid not opiate on the Methadone autocorrect got it wrong

No worries friend!

I never been to Portugal or Switzerland. Maybe somebody who lives there can tell us. I know the Swiss had heroin assisted treatment at one point but it was not over-the-counter even in the pharmacy. Portugal decriminalized drugs but cannabis recreational use is still an infraction and you will have your dope taken away at the very least

I have a friend in Portugal. He said they don't even really care about any of it anymore there. But he stays on subs still.

Have no friends in Switzlerand, but you are right, you have to go have your doses supervised in Switzerland. Which is not ideal. The maintenance people give it to you (and for free I believe). I don't like the supervised part at all. I do not want to be "monitered" every time I want to dose my heroin. It's a bit insulting. But it's a start somewhere I guess, to getting heroin to be accepted and legalized abroad.

Not only does the Swiss offer heroin maintenance, but some European countries offer a variety of opioids to use for maintenance, from dihydrocodeine, to morphine, tramadol & even hydromorphone. Rather than the same old shitty bupe or methadone we have here in the US.

And in some countries, you can buy all that over the counter. lol In Peru, I believe you can buy opioids & benzos over the counter. And in some Latin American, India & Asian countries, you can buy opioids & benzos over the counter. Just depends on how that country/culture views drug use, their benefits which outweigh the harms of keeping them "controlled", etc...

 

[Nic2thenac]

yeah there is about 7mg of 7-HO-M per capsule. Technically it says "less than 7mg" which is kinda weird but I am assuming it means around 7. Strange because they always list exact mitragynine content but every product that lists 7-HO-M says "less than X%" on it for that.



To my knowledge kratom hasn't ever caused any sort of dangerous overdose in humans. It does not depress breathing at all which is how opiates cause overdose deaths so I believe that is why. Not that you can't dose too much, you easily can, and it's unpleasant because it makes you feel nauseous and dizzy and dysphoric. But it's not dangerous.



Back when my opiate receptors were virgins and I did kratom in the traditional method (by brewing substantially larger doses of crushed leaf than when eating raw powder, in 2 x 20 minute simmering extractions, and discarding the leaf matter - using 12-18 gram doses, depending on tolerance level), I would get so high, it actually to this day was some of my absolute best opiate experiences and overall drug experiences of my life. I can't get that sort of high anymore, since I ruined my receptors over many years of kratom addiction followed by full agonist opiate addiction. But for those who are opiate naive, when dosing the traditional way (not consuming the leaf material seems to allow for substantially higher doses without the dizziness/shittiness setting in), kratom can produce a very euphoric and pleasurable high. it wasn't just me either, all of my friends I introduced to it absolutely loved it, it was a daily ritual we all looed forward to greatly. Every time for the first 6 months of using it, it felt similar to a cocaine rush on the come-up, we would start chatting nonstop and bouncing around the room. Then after an hour it would settle into a strong, semi-nodding opioid high, especially if you smoked some weed with it.

The first time I ever did it, I bought 10 grams from a head shop. No one knew what it was, and there were only a few reports on Erowid to go by. I brewed it up the traditional way (the only way I saw any reports of preparing it - toss and wash was not a thing then), drank it, and got in my friend's car to drive around and smoke weed. About 45 minutes in I realized I felt AMAZING, I was gushing to my friend about how amazing I felt and how this was some of the best I'd ever felt. I got really nauseous and he pulled over and I puked a couple of times, then kept feeling great for a few hours.

I use it all the time for detox from heroin, no precipitated wd here!