Get2Think
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For someone with ADD + Addictive personality, can self-control be built? I have such poor impulse control.
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DPMC Moderators: thegreenhand | tryptakid
Why You Don’t Really Hate AA
- Thread starter Jabberwocky
- Start date
For someone with ADD + Addictive personality, can self-control be built? I have such poor impulse control.
No you're not an oddball. You are one of the many people that AA/NA works well for. If it works for you Keep Coming Back!! It Works if You Work It!!!
Good luck to you.
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
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No you're not an oddball. You are one of the many people that AA/NA works well for. If it works for you Keep Coming Back!! It Works if You Work It!!!
You meant to say, "If it works for you, work it!" The bullshit others are pointing out in AA has a lot to do with the dogmas you present in your post, a circular, even demeaning logic. The implication being, if you work it, and it doesn't work for you, you didn't really work it well enough, or some such garbage. Fact is, AA doesn't work for everyone, regardless of how they work it. And that's cool, because, in fact, our options are much more than simply jails institutions (AA) or death.
@ Mass08 - It's great to hear you have found some support in your struggle to better yourself and your life. Keep it up! What works for you might not work for me, but that doesn't mean it's wrong or whatever. My only two cents would be to make sure to keep an open mind and try to explore as many avenues of well-being as possible, AA of course being among them (what I'm thinking of is also focusing on other things than AA and drug related stuff - e.g. hobbies like mountain biking or hiking, reading, writing, music, etc. etc.). But maybe for this instance you should keep it simple and stick to just working with the support you've embraced in AA. Small steps, small steps my friend. The future holds more opportunities than any of us could ever imagine, so there is no rush. Just try and keep yourself as healthy as possible, mentally and physically, and, as they say, prioritize your struggles (first things first or whatever the cliche is).
"Recovery," whatever that is, is imho impossible without discovering and embracing one's passions in life. Just remember, passions, as variety and diversity are good things, even though I'd also recommended focusing on one thing at a time. AA and whatnot has a lot of good to offer, I just can't deal with it given all the crap it has also entailed for me. And in any case, as I said, you'll have plenty of time to discover, rediscover and develop your passions as time goes by and you better yourself physically and mentally.
AA, as a worthwhile solution for some, can be great. But it's not the only solution there is out there for all of us. To treat it as such is to degrade even it's most positive and nurturing attributes, transforming them from wisdom to cow shit. Like I said, if it works for you, keep working at it. Hopefully it will continue doing so. If not try something else. Keep trying and eventually you'll succeed. You'll enter a new phase of life where your support group or whatever begins to morph into new and healthier shapes and forms, assuming you keep try to be kind, caring, loving and generally better yourself.
Obviously the problem is when AA is presented as THE ONLY solution, thereby denying those individual for whom it does not work their dignity as, just that, individuals for whom it doesn't work - for whom there exist other "solutions." To say AA's the only way for these folks is to essential deny their very existence as persons, individuals who are at once distinct and the same as their fellows. There nothing wrong with being different. In any case, like I said, we also share a lot of commonalities.
What works for you might not work for me, and there's nothing wrong with that. What is important, however, is that whatever our differences, we respect one another as individuals and work to find our own way to samskara.
EDIT: Oh, and Mass08, pls break up your sentences into paragraphs or whatever so they're easier to read than when they're just strung together in one big block.
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23536
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Through psychotherapy and medication, yes.
What's the attitude toward Adderall and Ritalin in the 12-Step groups?
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
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Pretty much the same as it is toward Suboxone and Methadone, at least in my rather limited experience (I've probably been to, I don't know, about 200 meetings). Although they generally conform to similar molds, there are some groups that are more nuanced in their approach to stuff like Suboxone and Methadone.
Adderall and Ritalin (and like stims prescribed for ADHD/whatever) are treated less like Sub/Meth than they are benzos for people with anxiety. But, like I said, in the vast majority of meetings I've been to or heard of, abstinence means no amphetamines, no opioids, no benzos, etc. etc. even for legit medical reasons.
Again, there are more enlightened groups that understand, when under a doctor's supervision and for legit reasons people do need to take such meds, and such people on said meds are accepted, but these are the exception not the rule.
Drugs like SSRIs and such that don't have a reputation for leading to addiction and (ab/mis)use seem to be generally accepted at pretty much any meeting I've been to/heard of.
Then again, PA, which seems one of the new branches of the Fellowship, seem to be the strictest about people being or not being on "addictive" medications (opioid/benzos/stims).
On another note though, at the end of the day, it would seem that even according to AA's teaching it's the individual who has to decide whether doing X activity or ingesting Y substance constitutes being clean or sober. If you're successful taking Adderall and live a life otherwise in accordance with AA principles, yada yada yada, fuck those in the program people who say you're not clean. Who are they to dictate who you are, assuming you're not obviously fucked out of your mind hehe
I know a number of people who have ADHD and serious impulse control problems who have worked with their doc to find the right medication/therapy that works for them. For some it has been drugs like Adderall ER or whatever while for others it's SNRIs, while yet for others it's some of the weaker stims like Adrafinil or Modafinil. A good buddy of mine with ADD had to stop taking Adderall because, after more than a decade on it was complicating his GI problems, and he found racetams to be the solution. Anyways, many of these people have become (some always have been) people I hold in the highest regard.
That is to say, with proper care as stated in the above post, someone with ADD taking Adderall to manage their condition will not inevitably cause sobriety problems. And if they were to arise, or you're overly worried about them, you have lots of other options out there than just Adderall. Try not to worry too much about it though, this I can say for sure
Adderall and Ritalin (and like stims prescribed for ADHD/whatever) are treated less like Sub/Meth than they are benzos for people with anxiety. But, like I said, in the vast majority of meetings I've been to or heard of, abstinence means no amphetamines, no opioids, no benzos, etc. etc. even for legit medical reasons.
Again, there are more enlightened groups that understand, when under a doctor's supervision and for legit reasons people do need to take such meds, and such people on said meds are accepted, but these are the exception not the rule.
Drugs like SSRIs and such that don't have a reputation for leading to addiction and (ab/mis)use seem to be generally accepted at pretty much any meeting I've been to/heard of.
Then again, PA, which seems one of the new branches of the Fellowship, seem to be the strictest about people being or not being on "addictive" medications (opioid/benzos/stims).
On another note though, at the end of the day, it would seem that even according to AA's teaching it's the individual who has to decide whether doing X activity or ingesting Y substance constitutes being clean or sober. If you're successful taking Adderall and live a life otherwise in accordance with AA principles, yada yada yada, fuck those in the program people who say you're not clean. Who are they to dictate who you are, assuming you're not obviously fucked out of your mind hehe
I know a number of people who have ADHD and serious impulse control problems who have worked with their doc to find the right medication/therapy that works for them. For some it has been drugs like Adderall ER or whatever while for others it's SNRIs, while yet for others it's some of the weaker stims like Adrafinil or Modafinil. A good buddy of mine with ADD had to stop taking Adderall because, after more than a decade on it was complicating his GI problems, and he found racetams to be the solution. Anyways, many of these people have become (some always have been) people I hold in the highest regard.
That is to say, with proper care as stated in the above post, someone with ADD taking Adderall to manage their condition will not inevitably cause sobriety problems. And if they were to arise, or you're overly worried about them, you have lots of other options out there than just Adderall. Try not to worry too much about it though, this I can say for sure
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amanitadine
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AA /NA is pretty much what you make of it. Lots of room to personalize it, less dogmatic than mst people think. If it work for you, great. If not, oh well. My biggest issue with it was being forced to go to over 500 meetings as part of my probation agreement. That's bullshit.
When I was going to meetings the general attitude was prescribed medications were ok, if they were helping rather thand hindering. Maybe that has changed in the last few years with the pill mill explosion. But it isn't all or nothing. . .Bill W was pretty big on LSD, and saw it for some time as the best catalyst for the spiritual transformation he believed necessary for the recovering alcoholic. AA folk didn't seem to want to discuss this when I was being forced to attend all those meetings.
yeah, it helps a lot of people, and not others. But it should always be a choice, not something forced upon you
When I was going to meetings the general attitude was prescribed medications were ok, if they were helping rather thand hindering. Maybe that has changed in the last few years with the pill mill explosion. But it isn't all or nothing. . .Bill W was pretty big on LSD, and saw it for some time as the best catalyst for the spiritual transformation he believed necessary for the recovering alcoholic. AA folk didn't seem to want to discuss this when I was being forced to attend all those meetings.
yeah, it helps a lot of people, and not others. But it should always be a choice, not something forced upon you
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
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"Pills Anonymous" (yea, I know...
![:\](https://bluelight.org/xf/BL_Images/Orig_Emoji/wrygrin.gif "wry grin :\")
)Precisely.
And I should amend what I said earlier is that each meeting has it's own general culture, and part of that culture is how it treats medicine.
E.g. Some groups are okay with Suboxone and others don't allow people to share who are on Suboxone regardless of any other circumstances, while yet other meeting are dedicated to people on methadone maintenance...
They come in all shapes and sized, but I've yet to find one that fits me. And I just don't care any more, cause thankfully I've found my own more effective alternatives than the 12 Steps or the BB.
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No you're not an oddball. You are one of the many people that AA/NA works well for. If it works for you Keep Coming Back!! It Works if You Work It!!!
You mean one of the few. Success in AA/NA is far rarer than failure, and if you've been in the program long enough believe what you're saying, you've probably personally seen hundreds of people, if not thousands, fail to obtain a year or sobriety/clean time in the rooms. When you discount the people who aren't able to succeed using the program as "not trying hard enough", or ignore the group of people who leave after being repulsed by the dogma, it's easy to pretend it's a resounding success. "People who go to meetings don't find out what happens to people who don't go to meetings."
Some stats, from The Orange Papers archive.
Some more stats, same archive.
Also, there's another slogan I've heard...goes like this:"If one out of 10/20/30 stay clean, be the one." Not a slogan borne out of success.
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Exactly. And there are thousands of people paying tens of thousands of dollars on 12 step rehabs who have the same exact chace of staying clean as someone who doesn't even go to meetings while getting conned into giving up $10k to $30k for zero benefit. That's sickeningly unethical, especially when they try to sell AA/NA as foolproof if you follow their program.
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
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Yup, the study Columbia did blew that whole thing out into the mainstream media not long ago. Charging folks tens of thousands of dollars, not just to some of the most financially vulnerably, but for a service that was designed from the get go to be FREE.
Anyways, another big issue is the whole modern concept of "addiction" and "recovery." The concept of addiction help a very different meaning in the 19th century, and there was no inherently negative connotations attached. It's present incarnation is most certainly a product of the times. The recovery industry is the new religion. And it's whole new witch hunt, a wolf in a different skin, or whatever that expression goes...
Get your hands on Ceremonial Chemistry and read up. Enjoy
Anyways, another big issue is the whole modern concept of "addiction" and "recovery." The concept of addiction help a very different meaning in the 19th century, and there was no inherently negative connotations attached. It's present incarnation is most certainly a product of the times. The recovery industry is the new religion. And it's whole new witch hunt, a wolf in a different skin, or whatever that expression goes...
Get your hands on Ceremonial Chemistry and read up. Enjoy
23536
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But, wouldn't you say that the modern concept of addiction is one that has been arrived at through scientific rigor, and that the old one was arrived at through tradition?
We also need to clearly define addiction and see what type of behavior it includes. Which behaviors do not rise to the threshold of addiction?
I hear they're adding "Drug Addiction" to the DSM-V. It wasn't there before--was just Substance Dependence. I'm not sure that addiction is more accurate and objective a word than dependence.
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
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I'd agree that the modern concept of addiction was arrived at through an empiricist framework versus something more dogmatic, although I'm not sure what you mean when you say, and please forgive my paraphrasing, 'arrived at through tradition?' Does that mean instead of being notions and ideas passed down through generations or discovered based on empirical principles?
Yes the DSM-V will be very interesting read. Not gonna get my hopes up but I have heard a good things. It's critics too, but I'm not worries as nothing perfect and at least it just might bring some good things to the table.
My criticism as "addiction" (I use in the medical/modern sense) is understood in our present culture has more to do with that modern culture. More specifically, our modern culture of medicine. The is certainly a LOT of good that has come with the widespread recognition and acceptance of the disease model. But like I said nothing is perfect.
Furthermore, my criticism has more to do with its role in the modern legal and socioeconomic culture. What I would call the traditional sciences (from organic chem to physics to pharmacology to neuroscience) are putting the disease model to very good use and making great strides. But even then, often the disease models ends up as over simplistic and inaccurate. It isn't, in a word, nuanced enough to do good outside the medical community.
Obviously we have a lot of problem related to how drug use is perceived. In many official institutional spheres of life "addiction" and the disease model have developed something akin to a cult. Something used to control, manipulate and coerce. A thorough exploration into the history of witch hunts and persecution of witchery in New England and else where is very enlightening. But then again are many other tragedies.
IMO it's all about the colonial mindset and breaking free, but how that happens, let alone what it will lead to, is certainly a debate with no foreseeable absolute conclusions (think of the idealism of communism and how Russia's ended up today post dissolution of the USSR).
I'd rather heroin users be treated by the public safety and health services according to the current addiction-as-a-disease model than how they were once they become demonized by the mid 20th century or. Too bad it's not all that better, if to degree and not in kind.
If heroin use becomes more common place, which it seem it might considering the influx into suburban areas and all that sensationalist if mindless reporting, I am very much looking forward to see how public perception of the individual using heroin may change.
There is a great blog somewhere with an article about how the public's perception of drug use, whether we tend to treat drug use as acceptable or unacceptable, has ebbed and flowed over time. IIRC the article's thesis was that we're in a period currently where drug use is considered more acceptable than not, but like I said I'm not certain that what it argued.
Honestly, at the root of my criticism of our modern understanding of addiction, other than that I love how Szasz is able to put it best, at it's heart a critique of the modern empiricist method. I am, after all, a product of the Frankfurt School
For what it's worth, I think it was an article I found through HH on this blog (the following just happens to be the particular link I'd bookmarked and I'm too tired to find the article I was referencing... or maybe it was on TSP blog... whatever I'm tired: http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com...the-doctor-in-the-american-disease/#more-8712
Yes the DSM-V will be very interesting read. Not gonna get my hopes up but I have heard a good things. It's critics too, but I'm not worries as nothing perfect and at least it just might bring some good things to the table.
My criticism as "addiction" (I use in the medical/modern sense) is understood in our present culture has more to do with that modern culture. More specifically, our modern culture of medicine. The is certainly a LOT of good that has come with the widespread recognition and acceptance of the disease model. But like I said nothing is perfect.
Furthermore, my criticism has more to do with its role in the modern legal and socioeconomic culture. What I would call the traditional sciences (from organic chem to physics to pharmacology to neuroscience) are putting the disease model to very good use and making great strides. But even then, often the disease models ends up as over simplistic and inaccurate. It isn't, in a word, nuanced enough to do good outside the medical community.
Obviously we have a lot of problem related to how drug use is perceived. In many official institutional spheres of life "addiction" and the disease model have developed something akin to a cult. Something used to control, manipulate and coerce. A thorough exploration into the history of witch hunts and persecution of witchery in New England and else where is very enlightening. But then again are many other tragedies.
IMO it's all about the colonial mindset and breaking free, but how that happens, let alone what it will lead to, is certainly a debate with no foreseeable absolute conclusions (think of the idealism of communism and how Russia's ended up today post dissolution of the USSR).
I'd rather heroin users be treated by the public safety and health services according to the current addiction-as-a-disease model than how they were once they become demonized by the mid 20th century or. Too bad it's not all that better, if to degree and not in kind.
If heroin use becomes more common place, which it seem it might considering the influx into suburban areas and all that sensationalist if mindless reporting, I am very much looking forward to see how public perception of the individual using heroin may change.
There is a great blog somewhere with an article about how the public's perception of drug use, whether we tend to treat drug use as acceptable or unacceptable, has ebbed and flowed over time. IIRC the article's thesis was that we're in a period currently where drug use is considered more acceptable than not, but like I said I'm not certain that what it argued.
Honestly, at the root of my criticism of our modern understanding of addiction, other than that I love how Szasz is able to put it best, at it's heart a critique of the modern empiricist method. I am, after all, a product of the Frankfurt School
For what it's worth, I think it was an article I found through HH on this blog (the following just happens to be the particular link I'd bookmarked and I'm too tired to find the article I was referencing... or maybe it was on TSP blog... whatever I'm tired: http://pointsadhsblog.wordpress.com...the-doctor-in-the-american-disease/#more-8712
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Stevenski
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I subscribe that you get out what you put in. Daily destruction required daily meetings for me where possible at least for the first 6 months & I put as much effort into abstinence as addiction. In time that abstinence turned to recovery & a lot of self exploration & discovery.
I was asked at my 2nd meeting if I want to live or die. Pretty harsh but true as if I kept doing what brought me to the rooms I would end up dead & buried most likely by my own hand. The single biggest benefit of 12 step fellowships is the support fellow travellers can offer especially when you are struggling. I no longer do 12 step meetings & have not been to one in some time but if I feel myself on the edge of the abyss I call my sponsor & get to a meeting.
Recovery is not easy but living the lifestyle of an addict is harder. It fucking sux to have to be brutally honest with oneself but absolutely critical to sustained recovery. I was told many times that if I don't like it I can see what else is out there as the door will always be open if I need it.
When in active addiction I am
Dishonest (lie, cheat & steal to get where I gotta go)
Close minded (fuck you & your opinions I am right & you are wrong)
Unwilling (I have a handle & my life is peachy so why would I need help)
In recovery I am
Honest (can I look the man shaving in the mirror today?)
Open minded (listen to others opinions & accept their view even if you feel they are wrong)
Willing (Am I ready to admit that I am not perfect?)
The problem is that most addicts look for the shortcuts they took all their life rather than the hard work required. It took me a decade to bottom out so it is feasible that it may take me that long to get back to baseline. That said it is a gradual change not some miracle cure & for the record I do not agree with everything said in 12 step meetings or their sometimes militant cult like meeetings but it is a great starting point & the group support can really help in the early days especially.
I was asked at my 2nd meeting if I want to live or die. Pretty harsh but true as if I kept doing what brought me to the rooms I would end up dead & buried most likely by my own hand. The single biggest benefit of 12 step fellowships is the support fellow travellers can offer especially when you are struggling. I no longer do 12 step meetings & have not been to one in some time but if I feel myself on the edge of the abyss I call my sponsor & get to a meeting.
Recovery is not easy but living the lifestyle of an addict is harder. It fucking sux to have to be brutally honest with oneself but absolutely critical to sustained recovery. I was told many times that if I don't like it I can see what else is out there as the door will always be open if I need it.
When in active addiction I am
Dishonest (lie, cheat & steal to get where I gotta go)
Close minded (fuck you & your opinions I am right & you are wrong)
Unwilling (I have a handle & my life is peachy so why would I need help)
In recovery I am
Honest (can I look the man shaving in the mirror today?)
Open minded (listen to others opinions & accept their view even if you feel they are wrong)
Willing (Am I ready to admit that I am not perfect?)
The problem is that most addicts look for the shortcuts they took all their life rather than the hard work required. It took me a decade to bottom out so it is feasible that it may take me that long to get back to baseline. That said it is a gradual change not some miracle cure & for the record I do not agree with everything said in 12 step meetings or their sometimes militant cult like meeetings but it is a great starting point & the group support can really help in the early days especially.
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ignore the cultist nonsense of AA. work the steps with a down to earth sponsor, by email, if you wish. Extremely lost and fanatical people will always be attracted to and clutter and cult the way surrounding any powerful thing. phanatics find whatever they want in whatever they want.. for example the people who find life changing wisdom in every damn word of the AA text.. Really guys there is so much good wisdom written down out there, you might want to put that worn big book down and pick one up by the Buddhas teaching because some of your shit is stolen from it.. don't think the founders meant for anything like that nonsense but the steps they outlined are truly specifically designed to help with addiction.. YEAH AA/NA freaks, I ALREADY know how to live but will take what i can from the steps and then move on with my life as i'm already living.. And just because I had a habit the size of utah for decades doesn't mean that i sacrificed my values and morals.. IMAGINE this, I actually figured out and worked to mantain my addiction, nope didn't use it as a ticket and justification to do every scumfuck thing that came along. Could be the reason so many strong still have my back. But yeah i have resentments towards those of you who did fuck me in the name of your addiction and many other areas the steps could help. Blowin off the cult and blowing out the system with the steps.. yeah, i did it my way.
Do not dwell in the past, do not dream of the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment.
Buddha
Do not dwell in the past, do not dream of the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment.
Buddha
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Addiction is the fight of two parts of our brains. The Limbic system or dopamine reward pathway wants you to do drugs no matter what because we have reprogrammed it to rank doing drugs as being necessary for life like eating, drinking, and sex. The Limbic system fights with the frontal lobe of the cerebral cortex which understands that no using this substance is not necessary for the continuation of life or the species in fact it is killing me. the limbic system controls every tool that your addiction throws at you including emotions such as guilt and shame of which the AA/NA steps try and minimize or remove the limbic systems ammunition. The monkey on your back or the devil on your shoulder is nothing more than the limbic system arguing with your frontal lobe as to whether we are going to use.
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Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
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neversickanymore - what else was it Buddha said, something like,
If you find that AA and the like fellowship improves the quality of your life, go for it. As much as I don't want to admit it, haha, I do have to give credit to the fact that my mom's involvement in Al-Anon (and of course my concurrent "treatment" for "addiction") has results in our relationship being better than I could have ever imagined. And as a single Jewish mother you can imagine how close we might have been despite our differences to begin with (she used to be an anti-drug fascist but now much more empathetic).
AA doesn't or rather hasn't worked for me. Who cares? It also wouldn't seem to work for most people. Again, who care? Except those who preach (read: preach) the Fellowship as the ONLY solution as applied to all people (which is obviously is not).
A one size fits all approach obviously doesn't work, as demonstrated by an interview on NPR today with Anne Fletcher on her new book Inside Rehab. Of course, I think the CASA Columbia study published what seems like quite a while ago sums it up even better (that the state of the treatment situation for addiction in the US is ineffective to the point where it could be considered broken - not to say it ever wasn't otherwise).
Just wanted to mention though, if preemptively, lets keep things (as I think they are) civil please.
Whether or not AA works can be a hot topic with tempers flaring. My only point is that is does and doesn't. It's current status, as sanctioned as it is by the courts, insurance companies and criminal justice system as the go-to/gold standard of treatment for addiction is, however, VERY problematic to say the least.
And institutional problems aside, there is also the problem inherent with philosophical system (as in the BB is interpreted in widely different ways). Find the interpretation that clicks for you, and run with it, if AA's your thing. If not, find another philosophy, like that of Thây, the Buddha, Marx, whatever works for you! I prefer the Adorno myself... Although I don't really believe anyone has any "right" to be an asshole or bigot (well lets not get too into this theoretically speaking), so choose your path wisely... (this is directed at no one, I'm just musing)
Best off choosing a practical one, like Electrician or Plumbing, as those seem the most financially viable in the states these days (joke)
There is a strong argument to me made against Bill's intentions/motives though, regarding how addicts should be treated, even back then:
At the expense of what other movements one might ask?
or was it Thich Nhat Hanh? Anyways that is the point, ideas such as your quote and this one.
If you find that AA and the like fellowship improves the quality of your life, go for it. As much as I don't want to admit it, haha, I do have to give credit to the fact that my mom's involvement in Al-Anon (and of course my concurrent "treatment" for "addiction") has results in our relationship being better than I could have ever imagined. And as a single Jewish mother you can imagine how close we might have been despite our differences to begin with (she used to be an anti-drug fascist but now much more empathetic).
AA doesn't or rather hasn't worked for me. Who cares? It also wouldn't seem to work for most people. Again, who care? Except those who preach (read: preach) the Fellowship as the ONLY solution as applied to all people (which is obviously is not).
A one size fits all approach obviously doesn't work, as demonstrated by an interview on NPR today with Anne Fletcher on her new book Inside Rehab. Of course, I think the CASA Columbia study published what seems like quite a while ago sums it up even better (that the state of the treatment situation for addiction in the US is ineffective to the point where it could be considered broken - not to say it ever wasn't otherwise).
Just wanted to mention though, if preemptively, lets keep things (as I think they are) civil please.
Whether or not AA works can be a hot topic with tempers flaring. My only point is that is does and doesn't. It's current status, as sanctioned as it is by the courts, insurance companies and criminal justice system as the go-to/gold standard of treatment for addiction is, however, VERY problematic to say the least.
And institutional problems aside, there is also the problem inherent with philosophical system (as in the BB is interpreted in widely different ways). Find the interpretation that clicks for you, and run with it, if AA's your thing. If not, find another philosophy, like that of Thây, the Buddha, Marx, whatever works for you! I prefer the Adorno myself... Although I don't really believe anyone has any "right" to be an asshole or bigot (well lets not get too into this theoretically speaking), so choose your path wisely... (this is directed at no one, I'm just musing)
Best off choosing a practical one, like Electrician or Plumbing, as those seem the most financially viable in the states these days (joke)
There is a strong argument to me made against Bill's intentions/motives though, regarding how addicts should be treated, even back then:
At the expense of what other movements one might ask?
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^^ I agree whole heartily with allot of what you are saying..
AA/NA is a simple set of steps that is now mired with a fanatical following.
I am Really turned off to the fellowship.. I'm just doing the steps
fa·nat·i·cal (f-nt-kl)
adj.
Possessed with or motivated by excessive, irrational zeal.
Obsessively concerned with something.
I believe there is much to get out of the steps.. and no I don't think they can be applied to every little facet of your life or need to be worked constantly or even more than once
I believe they are a good way of clearing your baggage
After that we just need to live our life in a healthy way, like not freaking out about things you cant control, like accepting parts of life that are deemed as bad, like learning how to cope with things.. i guess someone who cant develop these thought processes on their own may need to do something like refer back and use the steps as a fanatical crutch for their life.
Steps and why i think they are a good idea and why i'm doing them
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we
understood Him.
I look at this as just remembering to follow my heart, to many times i have sacrificed what i believe in because what society says is right or what someone else told me there was a right way to go through life or a place I needed to end up in order to be happy and successful, or that i wasn't doing it right.. fuk that noise never again, I'm following my heart.
4.Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature
of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
Call this a confession a vent or how about just dumping ALL YOUR GARBAGE OUT THERE.
Take everything "bad" thing you have ever done and every bad thing ever done to you.. Tell someone else.. realize its not that big a fukn deal.. all that shit you have had welled up inside you has lost its power.
Also the Limbic system, the driver of addiction also controls emotion, including well here
LIMBIC System - HYPOTHALAMUS
The hypothalamus sits under the thalamus at the top of the brain stem. Although the hypothalamus is small, it controls many critical bodily functions: Controls autonomic nervous system Center for emotional response and behavior Regulates body temperature Regulates food intake Regulates water balance and thirst Controls sleep-wake cycles Controls endocrine system
hmmm, sounds like this little bastard pull out all the tricks in lit little bag for acute withdraw rite..
http://its.sdsu.edu/multimedia/mathison/limbic/index.htm
So anyway buy doing all those "steps" or in plain word tell someone else everything you have done bad and everything that has been done bad to you, you get rid of all that extra baggage, the guilt etc. that goes with it and the ability for the limbic to use that shit to drive us to use. In other word if you just getn that shit off your chest, saying something out loud and to someone else kills denial, self denial. It makes something real and now that its real we can deal with it emotionally, instead of leaving it frozen ion denial to plague us till unfrozen.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make
amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do
so would injure them or others.
this is just Man/Womaning up and trying to make things rite. gets rid of guilt and builds strength, had to face who you were and fix it, what doesnt kill you makes you stronger. dump baggage and replace it with strength.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly
admitted it.
trying to live as a really good person.. If we fuck up fix it, don't acquire anymore negative baggage. develop pride and strength and positive human relationships that form from living well.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with
God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us
and the power to carry that out.
continue to follow your heart and don't buy into the bullshit again, like working 70 hours a week to get a phat paycheck will make you happy, ect. ect.
And you are absolutely rite.. Rehab isn't broken, you can only be broken if you ever worked.. think the success rate is like 12% but i would have to look that up, i love how they claim all responsibility for the success and blame the failure on the client not wanting it enough, or not doing whatever it takes.. ha, rehab is a big business just like suboxone, ever wonder why there isn't a taper dose and there is narcon in it, think they are just going to get everyone hooked for as long as possible and throw a little narcon in there so you cant taper down on any thing else easily..
criminal justice systems makes 90% of its money off drug users why would they want to fix the problem????
TRUTH is that you can get clean and stay clean, I'm living proof, clean since aug off iv Speed Balls, then to tar, then to tar methadone oxy xannax, then lost the tar but kept the rest, used all the drugs for 15.5 of the last seventeen years. you know who got me clean, me that's who, you know whose keeping me clean.. me that's who, but I'm going to use the steps to dump my baggage even if i have to creep through the aa/na crazies.. GOD knows i have crept through allot of crazies to get my shit..
There is to much money made off addicts, seems like everyone has thier finger in the cookie jar.. but I wouldn't look for an answer from rehabs (current) what do they do charge you thousands and point you to AA/NA where you could have went for free.. The justice system they are completely dependant on it.. BIG PHARMA< bigest drug s]=dealers out there (at least until they figure out that they could be charging people on the way in and out.. charge them to get them all fukd up and then to get clean, and again.
in my opionion these are the steps to getn and staying clean
1 Decide you want to be clean, not have to get clean, or need to get clean, or want to use with out all the problems, ect. ect.
2 draw a line in the sand, that is i will never use again. don't attach any reason or goal as this will only enter the argument in your head and emerge magically as an excuse or way to use.. ha, rite...
3 Not use ever again, anything for any reason, never again period.
4 learn how to live life happily
civil enough for you toothpastedog?
HA, hope u r well.:D
AA/NA is a simple set of steps that is now mired with a fanatical following.
I am Really turned off to the fellowship.. I'm just doing the steps
fa·nat·i·cal (f-nt-kl)
adj.
Possessed with or motivated by excessive, irrational zeal.
Obsessively concerned with something.
I believe there is much to get out of the steps.. and no I don't think they can be applied to every little facet of your life or need to be worked constantly or even more than once
I believe they are a good way of clearing your baggage
After that we just need to live our life in a healthy way, like not freaking out about things you cant control, like accepting parts of life that are deemed as bad, like learning how to cope with things.. i guess someone who cant develop these thought processes on their own may need to do something like refer back and use the steps as a fanatical crutch for their life.
Steps and why i think they are a good idea and why i'm doing them
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we
understood Him.
I look at this as just remembering to follow my heart, to many times i have sacrificed what i believe in because what society says is right or what someone else told me there was a right way to go through life or a place I needed to end up in order to be happy and successful, or that i wasn't doing it right.. fuk that noise never again, I'm following my heart.
4.Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature
of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
Call this a confession a vent or how about just dumping ALL YOUR GARBAGE OUT THERE.
Take everything "bad" thing you have ever done and every bad thing ever done to you.. Tell someone else.. realize its not that big a fukn deal.. all that shit you have had welled up inside you has lost its power.
Also the Limbic system, the driver of addiction also controls emotion, including well here
LIMBIC System - HYPOTHALAMUS
The hypothalamus sits under the thalamus at the top of the brain stem. Although the hypothalamus is small, it controls many critical bodily functions: Controls autonomic nervous system Center for emotional response and behavior Regulates body temperature Regulates food intake Regulates water balance and thirst Controls sleep-wake cycles Controls endocrine system
hmmm, sounds like this little bastard pull out all the tricks in lit little bag for acute withdraw rite..
http://its.sdsu.edu/multimedia/mathison/limbic/index.htm
So anyway buy doing all those "steps" or in plain word tell someone else everything you have done bad and everything that has been done bad to you, you get rid of all that extra baggage, the guilt etc. that goes with it and the ability for the limbic to use that shit to drive us to use. In other word if you just getn that shit off your chest, saying something out loud and to someone else kills denial, self denial. It makes something real and now that its real we can deal with it emotionally, instead of leaving it frozen ion denial to plague us till unfrozen.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make
amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do
so would injure them or others.
this is just Man/Womaning up and trying to make things rite. gets rid of guilt and builds strength, had to face who you were and fix it, what doesnt kill you makes you stronger. dump baggage and replace it with strength.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly
admitted it.
trying to live as a really good person.. If we fuck up fix it, don't acquire anymore negative baggage. develop pride and strength and positive human relationships that form from living well.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with
God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us
and the power to carry that out.
continue to follow your heart and don't buy into the bullshit again, like working 70 hours a week to get a phat paycheck will make you happy, ect. ect.
And you are absolutely rite.. Rehab isn't broken, you can only be broken if you ever worked.. think the success rate is like 12% but i would have to look that up, i love how they claim all responsibility for the success and blame the failure on the client not wanting it enough, or not doing whatever it takes.. ha, rehab is a big business just like suboxone, ever wonder why there isn't a taper dose and there is narcon in it, think they are just going to get everyone hooked for as long as possible and throw a little narcon in there so you cant taper down on any thing else easily..
criminal justice systems makes 90% of its money off drug users why would they want to fix the problem????
TRUTH is that you can get clean and stay clean, I'm living proof, clean since aug off iv Speed Balls, then to tar, then to tar methadone oxy xannax, then lost the tar but kept the rest, used all the drugs for 15.5 of the last seventeen years. you know who got me clean, me that's who, you know whose keeping me clean.. me that's who, but I'm going to use the steps to dump my baggage even if i have to creep through the aa/na crazies.. GOD knows i have crept through allot of crazies to get my shit..
There is to much money made off addicts, seems like everyone has thier finger in the cookie jar.. but I wouldn't look for an answer from rehabs (current) what do they do charge you thousands and point you to AA/NA where you could have went for free.. The justice system they are completely dependant on it.. BIG PHARMA< bigest drug s]=dealers out there (at least until they figure out that they could be charging people on the way in and out.. charge them to get them all fukd up and then to get clean, and again.
in my opionion these are the steps to getn and staying clean
1 Decide you want to be clean, not have to get clean, or need to get clean, or want to use with out all the problems, ect. ect.
2 draw a line in the sand, that is i will never use again. don't attach any reason or goal as this will only enter the argument in your head and emerge magically as an excuse or way to use.. ha, rite...
3 Not use ever again, anything for any reason, never again period.
4 learn how to live life happily
civil enough for you toothpastedog?
HA, hope u r well.:D
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