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Who's vegan, or vegetarian?

December Flower said:
Another big thing is: all this "being vegetarian" didn't do crap in my country. We just throw away more meat.
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its more about setting an example for others, after i got out of my preachy 'meat eaters are evil scum' stage and started presenting arguments rationally and non-judgmentally, i have made people think about their meat consumption. some of them have then gone on to reduce or cut out meat entirely- one even went vegan! on our own we do little, but if we can influence those around us, we achieve more,

i have been vegetarian since i was about 9 years old. there was a show about factory farming and i cried every week. its been 25 years so meat no longer seems like food to me, i find it gross.

i think i was a natural vegetarian because i never much liked meat- only really processed things like sausages and salami.

i should be vegan by my own beliefs but i associate going vegan very strongly with the beginning of my severe anorexia so its not a risk i'm prepared to take (i am not saying that being vegan is an eating disorder, it clearly isn't, just coincided with mine). i use oatmilk cos i hate cows milk and try to make sure that over 50% of my meals are vegan.
 
I will not be a part of the discussion just wanted to write as the thread popped out. I am vegetarian. But I keep it to myself as it is kind of personal info. I eat eggs and cheese. So judge me as you like. Im out.
 
chinup said:
its more about setting an example for others, after i got out of my preachy 'meat eaters are evil scum' stage and started presenting arguments rationally and non-judgmentally, i have made people think about their meat consumption. some of them have then gone on to reduce or cut out meat entirely- one even went vegan! on our own we do little, but if we can influence those around us, we achieve more,

i have been vegetarian since i was about 9 years old. there was a show about factory farming and i cried every week. its been 25 years so meat no longer seems like food to me, i find it gross.

i think i was a natural vegetarian because i never much liked meat- only really processed things like sausages and salami.

i should be vegan by my own beliefs but i associate going vegan very strongly with the beginning of my severe anorexia so its not a risk i'm prepared to take (i am not saying that being vegan is an eating disorder, it clearly isn't, just coincided with mine). i use oatmilk cos i hate cows milk and try to make sure that over 50% of my meals are vegan.
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O I agree. And I absolutely keep my animal products to an absolute minimum.
I don't think people should be vegetarians, our bodies have accustomed themselves to it too much.
And if you don't watch your intake precisely it can get super dangerous (bones, sinews, nerves)

Honestly, since I've been eating meat again, I've had much more success talking to others about reducing their meat-intake.
A Carnivore feels preached to by a Vegetarian, so they just turn a switch and stop giving a fuck,
I've stopped counting how often Carnivores stopped listening, so I stopped talking back then,
but now I've just had much much more success discussing strategies like "SEVERLY REDUCE meat intake", which is overall the optimal route for now, I think.

At least for now. You can't just force people to stop doing what they love.
However, I find that you can always motivate people to living a little bit longer.
Especially when you're talking eye-to-eye to them, not from some "supreme guru of love and peace"-angle,
which is sadly how too many hipster vegans/vegetarians talk. And that's why Carnivores also don't listen to non-preachy people talking about Vegetarianism.
 
i think it depends on how you approach it, but agreed, it probably does make some people feel preached at. i have been listened to and know its influenced people because they have told me so a long time afterwards. i think cultural differences may be at play too, its much more normal to be veggie over here. when i've visited family in Poland, guessing that's closer culturally to Germany than the UK is, they haven't understood it at all- and told waiters in Polish (which I don't speak) to just give me anything ffs!!! it has improved a lot though over there.

you are right that you can't force people to stop doing what they love, and positive reinforcement is the best way. my dad is a dyed in the wool carnivore but has actually started really enjoying some of the vegetarian dishes we eat when i'm at home.
 
chinup said:
i think it depends on how you approach it, but agreed, it probably does make some people feel preached at. i have been listened to and know its influenced people because they have told me so a long time afterwards. i think cultural differences may be at play too, its much more normal to be veggie over here. when i've visited family in Poland, guessing that's closer culturally to Germany than the UK is, they haven't understood it at all- and told waiters in Polish (which I don't speak) to just give me anything ffs!!! it has improved a lot though over there.

you are right that you can't force people to stop doing what they love, and positive reinforcement is the best way. my dad is a dyed in the wool carnivore but has actually started really enjoying some of the vegetarian dishes we eat when i'm at home.
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srsly I think the issue is this black & white agenda, vegetarian or carnivore,
and they're behaving like factions at war.
but carnivores are the majority of the people, and i've had more influence from the inside than from the outside,
just my personal experience in German culture. I mean meat is huge in Germany.
it's easier to say "hey, i know we need meat, but we don't need that much, right?",
and you can have this discussion with the biggest meat lovers
"buy less meat but buy higher quality meat instead, it tastes much better, and is more nutritious"
also it stops financing a brutal industry that kills billions of animals worldwide that don't even get eaten,
but moral arguments usually don't work. only works with soft-hearted people who are prone to vegetarianism anyhow
 
it does sound very different in Germany.

it is acknowledged here that you can live just fine without meat, i mean i've done it for 25 years and exercised a hell of a lot in that time, to no negative effect.

i do agree that eating better meat less is a better option and this is actually what i encourage meat eaters to do, rather than go vegetarian, and probably contributes to them actually listening to me.
 
My brother was a vegan, except he would eat fish because they don't have any feelings.

When he died, I adopted his diet for three months in a tribute to him.

Damned if I didn't feel like every system in my body had finished a "realignment" and was now "gelling" within three weeks. A season later, I bit down on a juicy rare cheeseburger and the bloodlust came roaring back, fogged my brain, dulled my senses, and stiffened my joints. That was in 2004. I haven't tried to eat that way since.

I rarely use cookbooks but I did find this one useful. It paved the way for a few dishes, and informed me of some vegan cooking basics.

My go to for nourishment during that time was baked tofu in various seasonings, and fried tempeh with various barbecue sauces.

My secret in the kitchen was extremely limited use of a chemical often sold as "liquid smoke". Makes everything taste like bacon.
 
ControlDaddy said:
My brother was a vegan, except he would eat fish because they don't have any feelings.

When he died, I adopted his diet for three months in a tribute to him.

Damned if I didn't feel like every system in my body had finished a "realignment" and was now "gelling" within three weeks. A season later, I bit down on a juicy rare cheeseburger and the bloodlust came roaring back, fogged my brain, dulled my senses, and stiffened my joints. That was in 2004. I haven't tried to eat that way since.

I rarely use cookbooks but I did find this one useful. It paved the way for a few dishes, and informed me of some vegan cooking basics.

My go to for nourishment during that time was baked tofu in various seasonings, and fried tempeh with various barbecue sauces.

My secret in the kitchen was extremely limited use of a chemical often sold as "liquid smoke". Makes everything taste like bacon.
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Thug Kitchen
Start with the queso dip. Even barbarians will agree, it is as good as dairy based queso if not better, and nutritionally it is pretty much just a buncha butternuts!
 
I am the anti-vegan. Just rendered a bunch of lard the other day...

I’d like to pose this question... What do vegans think should be done to the animals that raid crops and destroy all the veggies they hold dear? They can’t be caged and moved since they’re populations are too large (just putting the problem on someone else) and the economy won’t allow it either.

In the case of the lard, it was made from the fat of a wild pig which would have been shot by farmers to prevent crop destruction. I don’t see a reason that meat and fat should go to waste.

There’s aspect of agriculture and food production that most vegans haven’t a clue about, I’m sorry but it’s true time and again. Like how nearly 90% of cattle grazing land is inhospitable for most crops. You ever seen the large ranches out west? They maybe see green grass 2 weeks out of the year, the rest of the time bone dry. Draining aquifers is an issue in many places that try to grow crops where water is scarce.

I eat animals because I care about the environment. I realize that in order to eat my organic crops I need organic fertilizer often made from animal products. I realize that in order for many species to survive in the world we humans have created, the domesticated species that at this point can’t survive without us, we have to be involved in their lives to an extent.

I’m so anti because I’ve watched this ideology destroy many I hold close to me. One couple in particular is struggling bad right now with mental health issues that seem to correlate perfectly with heading the vegetarian route. But almost all vegans in my life have poor mental health, losing teeth, going grey early, horrible aged skin... The list goes on. Another friend I met when she was 18, she’s 23 now and was vegan since I met her, her skin was so wrinkled and aged last time I saw her it shocked me.

-GC
 
@G_Chem you are so right. Maybe between fifty and seventy five years ago the most effective conservationists would be unrecognizable to your average animal rights activists or tree-hugger today.

In places, some animals are out of control, even in the good ol' US of A, The wild boar problem is so out of control that it has become an interstate issue. Our tax money now funds gunships designed for warfare, capable of mowing down platoons of infantry, but assigned to reign in rampant populations of boar and deer.



I was shocked when I looked out the window of an urban office, to see a herd of approximately 200 white tail, moving across the landscape of parked cars and boulevards and avenues. There wasn't a significant strand of trees within ten miles, and I wondered what could cause that large a herd of deer to have business in the city financial district.
 
G_Chem said:
In the case of the lard, it was made from the fat of a wild pig which would have been shot by farmers to prevent crop destruction. I don’t see a reason that meat and fat should go to waste.
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most meat is not produced like that so its irrelevant to the argument. instead it is produced in factory farms where animals suffer awful existences and the surrounding environment is usually devastated by the intensive farming practices.
G_Chem said:
There’s aspect of agriculture and food production that most vegans haven’t a clue about, I’m sorry but it’s true time and again. Like how nearly 90% of cattle grazing land is inhospitable for most crops.
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the cattle on that land still produce methane, a greenhouse gas and major contributor to climate change.

the amazon is being destroyed for soya production for cattle ranching. literally the planet's appetite for meat is killing it. tbh your post actually makes it sound like you don't have a clue about food production.

G_Chem said:
I realize that in order to eat my organic crops I need organic fertilizer often made from animal products.
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organic crops are not capable of feeding the entire world, so your way would see a lot of people starve. it is not sustainable in the slightest.

G_Chem said:
I’m so anti because I’ve watched this ideology destroy many I hold close to me. One couple in particular is struggling bad right now with mental health issues that seem to correlate perfectly with heading the vegetarian route. But almost all vegans in my life have poor mental health, losing teeth, going grey early, horrible aged skin... The list goes on. Another friend I met when she was 18, she’s 23 now and was vegan since I met her, her skin was so wrinkled and aged last time I saw her it shocked me.
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oh god let me tell you about all the unhealthy meat eaters i've met!!!
 
chinup said:
most meat is not produced like that so its irrelevant to the argument. instead it is produced in factory farms where animals suffer awful existences and the surrounding environment is usually devastated by the intensive farming practices.

the cattle on that land still produce methane, a greenhouse gas and major contributor to climate change.

the amazon is being destroyed for soya production for cattle ranching. literally the planet's appetite for meat is killing it. tbh your post actually makes it sound like you don't have a clue about food production.


organic crops are not capable of feeding the entire world, so your way would see a lot of people starve. it is not sustainable in the slightest.


oh god let me tell you about all the unhealthy meat eaters i've met!!!
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This will go back and forth and has a zero end game. CD just wants to say he tried to tell you such happenings way back in the day.
 
haha CD i'm hoping not to.

i've said my piece. i used to work in crop genomics so had to learn a fair amount about how to actually feed the world (GMO ftw) in the face of a growing population and climate change. i know my views are informed by science.

anybody can look up about the contribution of factory farming to anthropogenic climate change or any of the other widely known arguments for reducing meat consumption so i don't intend to spell it out for anyone.
 
ControlDaddy said:
This will go back and forth and has a zero end game. CD just wants to say he tried to tell you such happenings way back in the day.
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Not trying to say there is NO value in trying to hash it out, but nutrition is so complicated, unless you are gifted to begin with and devote yourself to the field, it is hard enough to take in all the parameters without any prejudiced judgements to find a feasible diet that will keep you healthy.

Oh you want to add in all the macros? Add one and you may have exceeded the comprehensive understanding required to comprehend neuroscience and pharmacology in a practical way. Wait, you want to consider economics, nutrition, and ecology at the same time. Ok, God, don't let me stand in your way.
 
chinup said:
haha CD i'm hoping not to.

i've said my piece. i used to work in crop genomics so had to learn a fair amount about how to actually feed the world (GMO ftw) in the face of a growing population and climate change. i know my views are informed by science.

anybody can look up about the contribution of factory farming to anthropogenic climate change or any of the other widely known arguments for reducing meat consumption so i don't intend to spell it out for anyone."
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Awesome I should have just counted on you to cross-pollinate like this instead of trying to spell it out for everyone.

"So y'all want a discussion about foodstuffs beyond what to have for lunch today? Oh I see you know your shit about ketogenic diets and climate change?
- Chinup, go beat they ass.
 
Sorry I got heated. I know I let some of you down. It's cause, we so fucking lucky to be able to eat at all given the population explosion, I wish we all just would be grateful each day to have the calories we take in, regardless of all the religions around it.

Experientially, drop whatever floats your boat and watch "The Tip of the Spear", near the end note at the rainforest man in a US supermarket for the first time. You will see a man who has died and gone to heaven."
 
chinup said:
it does sound very different in Germany.

it is acknowledged here that you can live just fine without meat, i mean i've done it for 25 years and exercised a hell of a lot in that time, to no negative effect.

i do agree that eating better meat less is a better option and this is actually what i encourage meat eaters to do, rather than go vegetarian, and probably contributes to them actually listening to me.
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Well I mean, yeah. It's pretty different, but also we know the cows. We can see them run around on HUGE AF fields just for them all summer long. In the winter they're inside. This is where most people buy their meat from here. Local butcher can tell you the name of the cow.

_MG_5050.jpeg


they're cared for all their life. And there's thousands of fields like that everywhere around here.
And I'm OK with that. That's where our local milk and cow meat comes from,
so I understand that people here have a hard time believing that what they're doing is wrong.

Chicken, Sheep, Pigs, there's so many farms with dozens of fields like this

So I try the health angle. Eat less, better quality, longer life.
 
What's wrong with someone like me, who loves meat, but also wants to end factory farming and animal cruelty?

Why can't we just do both? Lab grown meat is viable.
 
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