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Which drugs work best to induce ego loss, and how to they differ?

alasdairm said:
surely, if the concept 'I' remains, this can't be viewed as ego-loss?

between this and the other thread, i have to admit i'm still a little confused by the concepts. ego-loss seems to be something of a catch 22. does anybody have any pointers to recommended articles which discuss and define the term?

alasdair

Some reading in transpersonal psychology would probably help. "Paths Beyond Ego" edited by Roger Walsh & Francis Vaughan is a great introduction. Its a collection diverse writers on topics including the varieties of egolessness.

Interesting stuff :)
 
heliosphan said:
the ones i find have worked for me for forgetting just who or where i was include: 2ct7, dpt, methylone, nitrous, dxm, and mdma. alcohol

You had ego-loss with methylone? Either you ate a whole gram or you do not understand what ego-loss is. I've taken methylone a number of times and it does not seem like the kind of drug that can cause this. Same with MDMA.
 
You can experience in high enough doses ego loss from almost all psychedelics that are active and produce psychedelic effects as i've even experienced ego loss from 5MeO-DiPT before at the 100mg mark which was a mistake i still fear. DMT takes me to a whole other world and time which can be frightning also i want to add that it seems that the tryptamines produce ego loss much more readily than the phenethylamines except for the 2CT's for some reason.
 
MDMA and ego loss just does'nt seem too likely if you ask me along with methylone as they just don't produce the effects that would induce ego loss so unless you took an extreme dose i'd say find out what true ego loss is by getting yourself some DMT and use atleast 40-60mg and see for yourself as your impression of what ego loss is may change.
 
Also alcohol does not produce ego loss like psychedelics do its just called blacking out from the toxicity of the ethyl alcohol causing temp. amnesia and severe damage to your brain. Also i'd say ego loss on alcohol is NOT true ego loss.
 
he did not say ego loss, he said: forgetting who or where I was, that`s not egoloss, smoke 10+mgs of 5-meo-dmt, and you`ll know what I`m talking about. Ego loss is the all the same feeling some1(Im too lazy ro scroll back) above me mentioned. you can still "know" you`re here, but be showed how all is the same(often giving you much more respect for other ppl, finally seeing them as equals) I can not really explain it, you have to have been there
 
Flexistentialist said:
Some reading in transpersonal psychology would probably help. "Paths Beyond Ego" edited by Roger Walsh & Francis Vaughan is a great introduction. Its a collection diverse writers on topics including the varieties of egolessness.

egolessness - nice word :)

thanks for the helpful reply, Flex.

alasdair
 
For me, i had partial ego loss on half a 4 oz bottle of Tussin DM (not even max strength, before I knew much better) I'm going for an entire 4 oz max strength tomorrow, so.
 
from the reading I've done, it would seem that n, n,-dmt does not have much of a propensity to cause egoloss. You may have been transported to a different realm entirely and you may have lost track of your body, but there still exists this "I" around which consciousness is centered. 5-meo, OTOH, seems to be the substance most likely to cause ego-loss...odd...

ebola
 
morninggloryseed said:
You had ego-loss with methylone? Either you ate a whole gram or you do not understand what ego-loss is. I've taken methylone a number of times and it does not seem like the kind of drug that can cause this. Same with MDMA.

i agree that the term egoloss is not an easy one to define. its like the term 'nothing'. what exactly is 'nothing'? you cant really define a word using the word itself in the definition(well, you can, its just not very effective).

the substances i mentioned have all at one point or another lead directly to what i would call ego dissolution. its sort of like what others have said where things didnt matter for 'me' as they usually do. i was comfortable just sitting or laying down and not really thinking about anything, just letting my mind wander aimlessly, to do its thing.

with methylone in particular, i had a transcedental, magical, shamanistic, ecstatic, colorful, insert other adjective here, voyage that i could easily compare to the profoundness of a 100mg dpt ego loss trips. the same awareness has been present with mdma. mind you i take my trips fairly seriously and like to get as much out of them as i can. so lots of times i just sit for hours meditating or yoga or just staying still and try and milk the drug.

point is lots of different substances can take you to the same place or at least the same general vicinity. being closed minded in this reguard will not take you very far.
 
I take my trips seriously too and am able to milk a lot from a psychedelic, even a low dose of one. :)

I have had very powerful experiences on methylone too, but nothing approaching what I'd call ego-loss. More along the lines of ego-dissolution.

The last time I took a real dose of methylone, I was in the desert and had, what was for me, a very mystical experience. Definite +4.

But I still can't see it (or MDMA) being the kind of entheogen capable of causing the kind of ego-loss 5-MeO-DMT or high-dose DPT trips do. I guess it just works differently for everyone.

I've seen MDA cause, what I call, ego confusion, as the person was confused as to where they were. But I could still communicate with him and he was able to respond, hence he were not experienceing ego-loss. He knew who he was, just not that he was tripping or at the location we were at.

What dosage of methylone did you take? My prefered dose with that compound is 180 mg. No suppliments.
 
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yep i agree with you that its not exactly the same type of ego loss as with dpt or 5meodmt(and i didnt mean to sound so adamant about it). those two are more extreme in how they show you. the m1 i like at 200mg and also take no supplements. never tried it that way, but only had it twice.
 
I think anyone interested in ego loss, etc, should read a book by Alan Watts 'The Book : On the Taboo Against Knowing Who you Are'

I personally have never experienced 100% true ego-loss on psychedelics. I came very close on a high dose of mushrooms, when I could no longer concieve what 'I' was, or relate to any notion of myself as entity, but it wasnt the sort of mystical unification with time and the universe kind of experience that I feel true ego loss is really about.

Through meditation, however, I have come very close to this state of ego-loss, and maybe one day if I throw everything away and go become a buddhist monk I might get there!

With Metta,

Jono.
 
this is a very interesting discussion. i need to do some more reading.

on a related note, i've heard a couple of people refer to partial ego-loss. logic tells me that you're either in a state of ego-loss or you are not - thoughts?

alasdair
 
lsd i believe would be the only true "ego removalist"
other drugs may scratch the surface of your ego
but anyone who has had a truly enlightening lsd trip will agree with me that only lsd has the power to not only remove the ego.... but destroy a good chunk of it permanantly for the rest of your life.

It is the most liberating experience one can ever be privelidged to experience.

Anyone who is "umming" and "ahhing" about what ego loss is, and if they have experienced it most likely has not.... its not something that is half hearted..... its like being stripped nakid from all your selfishness.... and let me tell you.... being nakid is good!

I hope you all experience the amazing loss of self lsd can provide some day...

peace out...
 
punktuality said:
lsd i believe would be the only true "ego removalist"
other drugs may scratch the surface of your ego
but anyone who has had a truly enlightening lsd trip will agree with me that only lsd has the power to not only remove the ego.... but destroy a good chunk of it permanantly for the rest of your life.


Obviously you have never smoked a full dose of 5-MeO-DMT.
 
I have felt what I would consider to be ego loss on both LSD and psilocybe mushrooms. Although in the case of mushrooms I was in a right state for hours before and after. With the LSD I was momentarily lost, but 'came back' relatively quickly and was able to function semi-normally.
Regarding the experience itself... well, all knowledge and recognition of the self faded. Everything just was, all was one...
 
Here's Mark Epstein's The Varieties of Egolessness from "Paths Beyond Ego". He bases his understanding on Buddhism, but this article gives a great overview of the different ways people approach the idea of egolessness.

There are now several common misconceptions about the key Buddhist notion of anatta, or egolessness. To begin with, many new meditators mistake egolessness for the abandonment of the Freudian ego.

Conventional notions of ego, as that which modulates sexual and aggressive strivings, have led many Americans to mistakenly equate egolessness with the kind of primal scream in which the person is finall freed from all limiting constraints.

Egolessness is understood here as the equivalent of that Wilhelm Reich's orgasmic potency, and the ego is identified as anything that tenses the body, obscures the capacity for pleasurable discharge, or gets in the way of feeling "free".

Popularized in the sixties, this view remains deeply embedded in the popular imagination. It sees the route to egolessness as a process of unlearning, or casting off the shackles of civilisation and returning to a childlike forthrightness. It also tends to romanticize regression, psychosis, and any other uninhibited expression of emotion.

Another popular misconception is that egolessness is some kind of oneness or merger, a forgetting of the self with a simultaneous identification with what lies outside the ego, a trance state or an ecstatic union. Freud described the "oceanic feeling" as a sense of limitless and unbounded onesness with the universe that seeks the "restoration of limitless narcissism" and the "resurrection of the infantile helplessness."

Thus, egolesness is identified with the infantile state prior to the development of the ego, that is, that of the infant at the breast making no distinction between itself and its mother but rather a merged in a symbiotic and undifferentiated union.

This formulation is complicated by the fact that there really are states accessible in meditation that do provide such feelings of harmony, merger, and loss of ego boundaries; but these are not the states that define the (Buddhist) notion of egolessness.

Egolessness is not a return to the feelings of infancy - an exception of the undifferentiatyed bliss or a merger with the mother - even though many people may seek such an experience when they begin to meditate, and even though some may actually find a version of it.

A third and more interpersonal view of egolessness suggests a kind of subjugation of the self to the other. It is as if the idealized merger experience is projected onto interpersonal relationships in what the Gestalt therapists have called "confluence," or loss of interpersonal ego - boundaries. This is really a kind of thinly disguised masochism.

The psychoanalyst Annie Reich, in a classical paper on self-esteem regulation in women, describes this very well. "Femininity," she says, is often "equated with complete annihilation." The only way to recover needed self-esteem is to then merge or fuse with a glorified or idealized other, whose greatness or power she can then incorporate.

For both sexes something similar exists in spiritual circles. Meditators with this misunderstanding are vulnerable to a kind of eroticized attachment to teachers, gurus, or other intimates, toward whom they direct their desires to be released "into abandon."

A forth common misconception, popular in the so-called transpersonal circles, stems from a misreading of important papers by Ken Wilber and Jack Engler. The belief here is that egolessness is a developmental stage beyond the ego; that the ego must first exist and then be abandoned. This is the flip side of the belief that egolessness preceeds the development of the ego - here it is seen as that which succeeds the ego.

This approach implies that the ego, while important developmentally, can in some sense be transcended or left behind. Here we run into an unfortunate mix of vocabulary. The system referred to by these formulations is the Western psychodynamic psychology of ego development.

Then there is a jump, or switch, to an Eastern-based, spiritual vocabulary that makes it seem as if the ego that has been formed is the same ego that is being abandoned.

Yet listen to the Dali Lama on this point: "Selflessness is not a case of something that existed in the past becoming nonexistent. Rather, this sort of 'self' is something that never did exist. What is needed is to identify as nonexistent something that always was nonexistent."

It is not ego, in the Freudian sense, that is the actual target of the Buddhist insight. It is, rather, the self-concept, the representational component of the ego, the actual internal experience of one's self that is targeted.

What is being transcended here is not the entire ego. Rather, self-representation is revealed as lacking concrete existence. It is not the case of something real being eliminated, but the essential groundlessness being realized for what it has always been. In the words of the Dali Lama, "This seemingly solid, concrete, independent, self-instituting I under its own power that appears actually does not exist at all."

Meditators with this misunderstanding often feel under pressure to disavow critical aspects of their being that are identified with the "unwholesome ego." Most commonly, sexuality, aggression, critical thinking, or even the active use of the first person pronoun are relinquished, the general idea being that to give these things up or let these things go is to achieve egolessness.

Apsects of the self are set up as the enemy and then attempts are made by the meditator to distance oneself from them. But the qualities that are identified as unwholesome are actually empowered by the attempts to repudate them!

A final misunderstanding of egolessness is one that sees it as a thing in and of itself, a state to be achieved or aspired to. Here, the need to identify something as existing in its own right is manifest, and the belief in the ego as concrete existent is, in some sense, transferred to the belief in egolessness as concretely existent.

It is not the ego that disappears, but that the belief in the ego's solidity, the identification with the ego's representations, is abandoned in the realization of egolessness.
 
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