Heroin What type of heroin does the upper Midwest have?

[DeathRow]

So, ever since I first learned there were different types of heroin (i.e. no. 3, no. 4, etc) I’ve been confused. I’ve read the properties of the different kinds (i.e. no. 3 vaporizes well but needs an acid to dissolve in water/no. 4 dissolves readily in water but doesn’t vaporize, etc) but as far as heroin around me, I’m confused.

The heroin that we get locally isn’t tar or anything similar, it’s usually tan/brown powder/chunks, but here’s what throws me off. It vaporizes just fine, and as a matter of fact, smoking is the most common ROA amongst the people I know who use it. But I do know shooters as well, and the same dope will dissolve in plain water by just crushing the dope and stirring it in the water.

It apparently comes from Mexico, and I’m guessing it is the same dope as places like Chicago, Detroit, or Minneapolis. I just can’t seem to figure out what type it is.

I read online before that if you add caffeine to no. 4 ecp by a ratio of 1:1 that it can then be smoked properly. Is this true, and even if it is, is it possible that this is what’s being done to it? I find it hard to believe all the dope I’ve used over the past 10 years just happens to be mixed with the perfect ratio of caffeine, even if it is true.

Am I being retarded here? Is there some ultra-simple answer that I’ve been somehow overlooking this whole time?
I ask out of plain curiosity as well as frustration of not having figured this out by now, as well as the fact that I plan to start using darknet markets and throwing money together with a couple friends, some who smoke and some who shoot, and I want to make sure I’m ordering the same type of heroin there is here, so that both the smokers and the shooters can use it without being inconvenienced.

So is it a type separate from no. 3 or ecp?

 

[emkee_reinvented]

This actually describes the only Heroine I have ever seen.

Looked and smelled even a bit like a masala, a blend of oriental spieces and herbs. No idea about the properties, but it was apperently good dope. He snorted it and had pinsized pupils.

 

[DeathRow]

This actually describes the only Heroine I have ever seen.

Looked and smelled even a bit like a masala, a blend of oriental spieces and herbs. No idea about the properties, but it was apperently good dope. He snorted it and had pinsized pupils.

Would definitely be nice to figure the shit out, if to only be able to say I actually know what type of dope it is. Not that it really matters that much anymore anyways, since 99% of heroin no matter where you are is filled with fent these days. I just want to know. How hard can it be to figure out what type of heroin a large portion of the country has?

 

[emkee_reinvented]

The place I recide is a gateway for drugs to the rest of the world.

So I guess quality is good prices low?

 

[DeathRow]

The place I recide is a gateway for drugs to the rest of the world.

So I guess quality is good prices low?

Sorry, I’m not following you.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Sorry, I’m not following you.

The harbours of the Netherlands and Belgium are both rumored to be important distribution point's for Heroine & Cocaine. And we Dutch are wellknown as it comes to producing sythetic drug's. MDMA and other chemical's.

 

[Gormur]

I've never seen heroin but from what I've read on here, there's ECP and a lesser amount of BTH in Winnipeg. I'd imagine it'd be the same heroin in neighboring North Dakota and Minnesota. I think Wisconsin, Illinois and anything east of that's mostly or exclusively ECP

BTH Black tar heroin
ECP East coast powder heroin

 

[Gormur]

Would definitely be nice to figure the shit out, if to only be able to say I actually know what type of dope it is. Not that it really matters that much anymore anyways, since 99% of heroin no matter where you are is filled with fent these days. I just want to know. How hard can it be to figure out what type of heroin a large portion of the country has?

It must be ECP since BTH has to be broken down in water to snort or inject, but it can be vaporized the way it is unlike ECP. Afghan heroin is No. 3 and it's rare outside of Europe, pockets of Asia and Australasia. That stuff has to be broken down in water with citric acid before you can use it at all

 

[Deru]

The heroin that we get locally isn’t tar or anything similar, it’s usually tan/brown powder/chunks, but here’s what throws me off.

It's a bit more complicated.

Midwest (was) almost exclusively heroin #4. That doesn't mean it won't vaporize, it would just be roughly the equivalent of smoking another salt with a high vaporization point (i.e. cocaine hydrochloride). You can smoke cocaine hydrochloride if you really wanted to, just the same as you could smoke heroin #4, you would just experience a greater degree of loss.

If it dissolves readily in water, it's a salt and thus heroin #4.

Heroin #3 is a base, like crack cocaine or cocaine freebase, and requires an acid to turn into a salt and be readily water soluble. The same issue as "can I smoke heroin #4" seems to apply to "can I sniff heroin #3". The short answer is, yes, it just won't be nearly as efficient unless it's cut with some type of acid that reduces it's pH. You almost certainly will never find heroin #3 in the Midwest unless it's from the DNM.

It becomes even more complicated because in the portion of the upper midwest I'm familiar with, heroin has almost been exclusively replaced by street fentanyl or fentadope, and most people do prefer to smoke it.

The tan/brown heroin in the Midwest now is almost guaranteed fentanyl, or at least fentadope. You'd be lucky to find it any other way, and the fact that everyone prefers to smoke it confirms my suspicion.

 

[Gormur]

@Deru I wonder why fentanyl vaporizes readily while heroin hcl doesn't, or maybe there's a form of freebase fentanyl I'm unaware of. I think the closest thing to freebase heroin is BTH, right?

 

[Deru]

Street fentanyl is sold as a salt and it’s readily water soluble. There is really very little data that I can find on fentanyl’s vaporization point. It has a lower melting point (from a solid to liquid) as fentanyl citrate than it does as fentanyl hydrochloride. I’m assuming that street fentanyl is not typically sold as fentanyl hydrochloride because they’re cut with sugar alcohols, although which ones I don’t know. I think it’s safe to say the vaporization point of the street fentanyl salt is much lower than heroin #4 or cocaine hydrochloride. There is also some conflicting data I’ve found on it’s inhalation biovavailability, it seems to be incredibly low (12%) but it’s unclear what formulation that was from. There is another study that shows it as high as 80%, but that could be a formulation that has a higher pH (if I remember correctly, one was at 6 pH and one was at 8 pH.).

Maybe some of the expert chemists around here could elaborate further, as I’m actually curious to those nuances as well.

In terms of the form of heroin best suited for smoking, then yes, BTH would be somewhat similar to heroin #3 in that regard.

 

[DeathRow]

I

It's a bit more complicated.

Midwest (was) almost exclusively heroin #4. That doesn't mean it won't vaporize, it would just be roughly the equivalent of smoking another salt with a high vaporization point (i.e. cocaine hydrochloride). You can smoke cocaine hydrochloride if you really wanted to, just the same as you could smoke heroin #4, you would just experience a greater degree of loss.

If it dissolves readily in water, it's a salt and thus heroin #4.

Heroin #3 is a base, like crack cocaine or cocaine freebase, and requires an acid to turn into a salt and be readily water soluble. The same issue as "can I smoke heroin #4" seems to apply to "can I sniff heroin #3". The short answer is, yes, it just won't be nearly as efficient unless it's cut with some type of acid that reduces it's pH. You almost certainly will never find heroin #3 in the Midwest unless it's from the DNM.

It becomes even more complicated because in the portion of the upper midwest I'm familiar with, heroin has almost been exclusively replaced by street fentanyl or fentadope, and most people do prefer to smoke it.

The tan/brown heroin in the Midwest now is almost guaranteed fentanyl, or at least fentadope. You'd be lucky to find it any other way, and the fact that everyone prefers to smoke it confirms my suspicion.

Ahh okay. Is it possible that this whole time I’ve been overestimating how difficult it would be to vaporize #4 heroin? I always assumed it just CANT be done and it will not get you high or whatever. But maybe we are getting #4 and the smokers are just fine with the losses compared to IV?

The other thing that throws me off, tho, is that I have been using heroin on and off for the past 10 years. Always got heroin locally, and never had any problems smoking off foil. Then one day I decide to try a DNM (this was when the first Silk Road was still up) and ordered the best reviewed heroin listing I could find for my price range. It was labeled as #4 ECP I believe, and then another listing I ordered was just “ECP Stamp Bag”. When I received the orders, this was before I had even heard about different types of heroin, and I did like I usually would do, and got some foil out and started trying to smoke it.

It’s been several years since then, now, but I remember that it just didn’t smoke quite like I’m used to. It didn’t run on foil well, didn’t smoke up much, tasted awful and not at all like the taste I’m used to, and didn’t even really get me high, until I decided to sniff it and discovered it was actually quite high purity, I was just using it wrong.

If I’ve been smoking #4 this whole time, what made the ECP I got on SR different from what I’m used to?

 

[Deru]

It didn’t run on foil well, didn’t smoke up much, tasted awful and not at all like the taste I’m used to, and didn’t even really get me high, until I decided to sniff it and discovered it was actually quite high purity, I was just using it wrong.

Sounds like it was cut with something that didn't burn well, especially if it worked well intranasally. I've experienced quite a lot of heroin #4 like that prior to fentanyl coming around. As far as DNM, some of those vendors are experts at making a product look like perfect fire and it's really just complete bunk. I've never seen so much cocaine that looks and smells perfect in every single imaginable way be 100% bunk since the pandemic started.

 

[DeathRow]

Sounds like it was cut with something that didn't burn well, especially if it worked well intranasally. I've experienced quite a lot of heroin #4 like that prior to fentanyl coming around. As far as DNM, some of those vendors are experts at making a product look like perfect fire and it's really just complete bunk. I've never seen so much cocaine that looks and smells perfect in every single imaginable way be 100% bunk since the pandemic started.

Huh, go figure I guess. So it’s coincidence that I had never had any local dope with similar cuts?
I should clarify and say that, not only did it not burn well, it simply just didn’t run on foil like dope should at all. Does this make a difference?

I believe your expertise but in all honesty I’m not totally convinced by this. I read in another thread that the numbering system is an outdated system to refer to at what stage the product was in, #4 being the final product, completely refined heroin. Is it possible that the dope coming up from Mexico is just using different refining techniques these days and are producing dope that is both readily soluble in water, and vaporizes well too? I know that sounds dumb but I really just cant wrap my head around the idea that this whole time, me and all the other local smokers in my area have been buying dope not knowing they’re using an ineffective ROA when they use it.

So, what it comes down to I guess, is that the Mexican heroin being produced by the cartels is indeed #4 heroin and smoking just happens to be the most inefficient way to use it?

 

[Deru]

So it’s coincidence that I had never had any local dope with similar cuts?

I’d say consider yourself lucky

Does this make a difference?

Nope, it won’t run at all. Tastes like garbage and very difficult to smoke.

I read in another thread that the numbering system is an outdated system

Well, it’s still true to this day. There is heroin #1, heroin #2, heroin #3 and heroin #4. This would somewhat translate to cocaine as well, cocaine base would be cocaine #3 and cocaine hydrochloride would be cocaine #4.

The process may have changed, but you’re still left with the base at #3 and the salt at #4.

 

[seedee]

I've never seen heroin but from what I've read on here, there's ECP and a lesser amount of BTH in Winnipeg. I'd imagine it'd be the same heroin in neighboring North Dakota and Minnesota. I think Wisconsin, Illinois and anything east of that's mostly or exclusively ECP

BTH Black tar heroin
ECP East coast powder heroin

i lived in winnipeg most of my life and never once saw black tar. i've had the tan stuff. always came from bc.

 

[DeathRow]

I’d say consider yourself lucky



Nope, it won’t run at all. Tastes like garbage and very difficult to smoke.



Well, it’s still true to this day. There is heroin #1, heroin #2, heroin #3 and heroin #4. This would somewhat translate to cocaine as well, cocaine base would be cocaine #3 and cocaine hydrochloride would be cocaine #4.

The process may have changed, but you’re still left with the base at #3 and the salt at #4.

Fair enough then, thanks.

 

[Deru]

I missed this part...

I know that sounds dumb but I really just cant wrap my head around the idea that this whole time, me and all the other local smokers in my area have been buying dope not knowing they’re using an ineffective ROA when they use it.

So, what it comes down to I guess, is that the Mexican heroin being produced by the cartels is indeed #4 heroin and smoking just happens to be the most inefficient way to use it?

I think if you had solely heroin #4, then yes, but you most likely don't. Since it's unlikely solely heroin #4, then smoking it isn't problematic at all, and actually one of the better ways to use it to avoid intravenous route of administration.

 

[DeathRow]

I missed this part...




I think if you had solely heroin #4, then yes, but you most likely don't. Since it's unlikely solely heroin #4, then smoking it isn't problematic at all, and actually one of the better ways to use it to avoid intravenous route of administration.

Well yes but I’m talking about the times before fentanyl really came in and took over.

 

[Deru]

Well yes but I’m talking about the times before fentanyl really came in and took over.

Oh yeah, then definitely yes, the most inefficient way in terms of loss, but it would still rank superior to intranasal because of the peak onset — barring it have cuts or adulterants that making smoking next to impossible — it would just be more costly as you would need to use more absolute product to get to arterial blood versus intranasal or intravenous routes of administration. So it mostly comes down to a bang for the back situation, to be honest. The slight benefit (from a harm reduction lens) to smoking heroin #4 is that if your income is fixed, then you’ll experience more loss and have lower amounts that make it to arterial blood, which would lessen the physical dependence and consequent withdrawals but be stuck with more severe physiological addiction since smoking actually makes it to arterial blood, and thus your brain, slightly quicker than intravenous. I knew many people who smoked heroin #4, you and your friends are not alone, that’s for sure.