What type of drug withdrawal is worsened by exercise ?

[Kdem]

Exercise, defined as more than 'light/low intensity exercise' like walking for 100 meters.

Benzodiazepine withdrawal isn't supposed to do that. Then, clonazepam is a benzo but not just any benzo (serotonin/acetylcholine/dopamine/indirectly other neurotransmitters, GABAB receptor, (possibly GHB receptor ? when I tried a switch to liquid I felt intoxicated and a sense of euphoria at first))
In my case, some possible symptoms: elevated threshold for falling asleep/possibly inability to fall asleep, 'burning' glow muscles/peripheral nervous system (norepinephrine?/calcium?), possibly intestinal contractions including bladder, (subjective) perception of time moving slower.

Is there a match with any known type of drug withdrawal ?

 

[Neithman]

no withdrawal is worsened by exercise,as it upregulates nearly every neurotransmitter,making ist easier to fall aslee etc its possible that shortly after exercise symptoms are worsened because of adrenalin releasing,but after a hour you will start to calm down and the next day your symptoms will be much less worse.I personally completely anhilitaed cannabis withdrawal(which istn tht bad at all but anyways)with doing 3+ hours of exercise every day,could sleep perfectly fine on day 1,i think with benzo withdrawal it will take longer but your withdrawal is signinficantly shortened by doing a lot of exercise
I personally get a huge dopamin rush after doing 2+ hours of judo training alike to a cocaine rush(did cocaine 15+ times) without the negatives of cocaine

 

[Solipsis]

I imagine if you are withdrawing from GHB so quickly that cardiovascular complications (cardiac arrest etc) are a real risk, then exercise clearly seems like it would be too much?

Other than that, exercise is very healthy and conductive to all kinds of recoveries, mental and physical... no withdrawal would be worsened but if your body is already overloaded then you will probably realize that exercise or exertion could be overkill and harmful to your body... in some cases people withdrawing from GHB go psychotic, so if its the overstimulated, manic psychosis type, which it may often present like then overexertion could be a real issue.

You should taper of course, if you are on a steady trajectory then its generally 'all good' and exercise recommended.

 

[Kdem]

Maybe it's different with recreational drug use ... I don't know.

While you can always ask 'how do you know ?' let's keep it simple: with exercise my body doesn't produce much adrenaline. Norepinephrine, sure, plenty of it ! While it is a bit variable: too much cortisol/glucocorticoids.

If feels easy when I exercise, but I have to deal with the consequences afterwards.

Well, I'm not psychotic or manic. But at times this drug is prescribed for mania ...
Yesterday I wondered if exercise doesn't produce serotonin depletion ... I'm just guessing.

 

[Kdem]

Solipsis,

'so if its the overstimulated, manic psychosis type, which it may often present like then overexertion could be a real issue.'

I'm not manic or psychotic. But in some ways I guess it could be overexertion. It just doesn't feel like overexertion when I exercise. Switching to diazepam won't cover that, not on the short run. If you have any suggestions ?

 

[dopamimetic]

Withdrawal from serotonergic drugs like SSRIs go insane with any physical activity... the brain zaps become much stronger.

 

[clubcard]

Alcohol.

 

[Solipsis]

Kdem it would help if you shared what consequences you suffer from exercise that suggest that it's not just hard or even very hard to get active again if you atrophy, but even unhealthy / damaging?

Not sure what effects exercise has on neurotransmitters, but considering how well it often works to heal from being messed up from drugs or medication, and depression, it seems that there is pretty much nothing to suggest that it depletes serotonin - quite the opposite.

Brain zaps from SSRI withdrawal or MDMA use are thought to be a result of serotonin imbalances that are readjusting, not specifically depletion. Depression / mood disorders or issues with sleeping and many other functions that rely on the serotonergic system are more typical to expect from serotonin depletion. But your healing potential should not be underestimated, your body including your brain will tend to rebuild itself according to the schematics of the DNA. Yes environmental factors play a role, but the genetic factor is also big.

It is important to not waste copious amounts of energy on trying to diagnose yourself without proper understanding of how the brain/body works and especially what has caused what (don't get me wrong: I don't consider myself an exception). Sure, don't neglect it either, when you are clearly hung up in destructive habits...
But IMO try to avoid confrontation as little as possible, fear of pain etc is terrible and can drag on and on becoming so much bigger than the pain itself: the suffering of just going through the shit and facing the music.

As with anything, when you push the envelope trying to heal, exercising - eating healthy - living safely and structured, don't push it TOO far like when your body is telling you on top of that it feels hard and shitty, that it's really dangerous. If you get brain zaps wildly or if your heart is beating out of your chest, obviously take it easy..
But work as hard on your recovery as you can.

 

[Kdem]

dopamimetic,

Clonazepam has a significant secondary effect on serotonin. Supposedly, aside from other issues it upregulates the serotonin transporter.

Once I tried a (failed, stupid idea, not mine) lorazepam taper. In the very beginning, I decided to try if I could continue exercising. Within a few hours after the workout I noticed that time was moving a lot slower (subjective perception!), and my cognitive functioning went from ok to bad. I sort of 'fixed' that by taking one clonazepam tablet. I didn't do that again.
That was on 4 mg lorazepam (vs. 2 mg clonazepam).

 

[Kdem]

Consequences of exercising: some form of hypercortisolism or excess of glucocorticoids (various effects, in a nutshell, I know that something like that is going on). That can happen even during the exercise, but typically I can notice that after exercising. Up to a point, for many days after.
Increased norepinephrine secretion (that really started after I took mebeverine (colofactab.pdf, in vitro effects) for a while). Typically, a warm, possibly burning glow emanating from nerves/muscles.
Both, or mostly one or the other.

From a practical point of view: significantly elevated treshold to fall asleep (more than normal), frequently shorter sleep duration, generally time appears to move slower, typically more alert or being able to focus less, frequently: shutdown of appetite, some cognitive dysfunction may resolve for a while.
General slowdown of metabolism, I tend to feel colder. Undoubtedly effects on thyroid hormones etc. Tendency to pack on visceral fat.
These are mostly systemic effects, meaning that they last at least a full week (more or less) after a session.
It has always been the case that exercising (not walking for 100 metres ...) sets in motion a range of systemic effects. My impression is that clonazepam interrupts the feedback loops (HPA axis and more), possibly other things go wrong as well these days.

Generally I feel ok while exercising, but I pay the price afterwards ... Sometimes it induces muscle breakdown (hypercortisolism?) for some time, of course not exercising it not ideal either.

Running for 2 minutes is fine, 10 minutes is not ... Even if I exercise in the gym (weights etc.) with relatively low weights/short duration these issues happen.

 

[Nagelfar]

While you can always ask 'how do you know ?' let's keep it simple: with exercise my body doesn't produce much adrenaline. Norepinephrine, sure, plenty of it ! While it is a bit variable: too much cortisol/glucocorticoids.

What lab is monitoring your adrenal / endocrine system? Sorry if that's a "how do you know?" question, ;-p but it is a bit of an absurd proposition; thinking you're in the know concerning the qualia of these neurotransmitters in context with how complex the brain is and how subjectively relative our own perceptions are, esp. of our own brain versus mind.

 

[Kdem]

I forgot to mention exhaustion, sometimes for days after exercise. Sometimes, even elevated mental stress after exercise.

 

[Kdem]

What lab is monitoring your adrenal / endocrine system? Sorry if that's a "how do you know?" question, ;-p but it is a bit of an absurd proposition; thinking you're in the know concerning the qualia of these neurotransmitters in context with how complex the brain is and how subjectively relative our own perceptions are, esp. of our own brain versus mind.

I don't have that level of healthcare to get all that work done. If it were possible, I'd have to pay out of pocket.
Either you believe me, or you don't. I know theory, I know my own experiences.

For example, as far as the norepinephrine thing goes I know (or knew) basic theory, and I know the effect of mebeverine. Including the mechanisms of action that are not in most PI sheets.

One does the best one can. I don't know what elevated norepinephrine levels do to the brain as whole or or even most regions, but I'm not completely ignorant either.

As my former GP used to say 'it's mental'. 'Just stop taking that pill'

 

[neversickanymore]

I forgot to mention exhaustion, sometimes for days after exercise. Sometimes, even elevated mental stress after exercise.

adrenal fatigue? Most withdrawals come with a probability of adrenal spikes. Clonidine is used to try and prevent this. aerobic or anaerobic exercise initiate adrenal release. inducing adrenal release in an adrenal depleted system will make one feel good at first and awful later. You have to have to be patient. Very low level exercise to induce creation of the neurotransmitters, but little or no release.

Have you incorporated dopamine precursor rich food or supplements into the equation? Can you transfer to a richer life with less stress? Can you change your current cognition so you stop causing yourself so much stress? Just some questions you may want to ask yourself.

Adrenal Fatigue

 

[dopamimetic]

Clonidine is really a good aid, think it's used much too less.. don't know where that comes from, all the doctors are in fear of it, that it would lower blood pressure too much and all.. this is straight bullshit. Clonidine is one of the essential pills to have around imo when doing drugs, helps with insomnia, panic attacks and general restlessness etc.. it can lock you to the bed a bit, but this isn't dangerous. Wide therapeutic range from 50mcg to 1.2mg or so.

Clonidine + Memantine (high dose, 60+mg) can take you off opioids with skipping most of the withdrawal. In a few days. Confirmed.

 

[Kdem]

Some sort of 'adrenal fatigue' (technially the adrenal glands are not fatigued, and sometimes even overactive) is certainly at play. I wonder if taking clonidine (I once had a mild positive experience with low dose Seroquel, which is an alpha-adrenergic antagonist if I'm not mistaken) will not cause adverse effects.
Honestly, sometimes I'm not mentally 'lucid' and exercise, and probably the release of glucocorticoids as well ... can improve that. At a cost. I'm 'med senstitive'.

It seems my body is under a lot of stress, but there is not much that I can do about that using 'mind power'. It's just a physical thing, clonazepam and my current health. I got very little sleep in the past few months, clonazepam is more sedating during the summer, this got even worse after that foolish lorazepam taper.

adrenal fatigue? Most withdrawals come with a probability of adrenal spikes. Clonidine is used to try and prevent this. aerobic or anaerobic exercise initiate adrenal release. inducing adrenal release in an adrenal depleted system will make one feel good at first and awful later. You have to have to be patient. Very low level exercise to induce creation of the neurotransmitters, but little or no release.

Have you incorporated dopamine precursor rich food or supplements into the equation? Can you transfer to a richer life with less stress? Can you change your current cognition so you stop causing yourself so much stress? Just some questions you may want to ask yourself.

Adrenal Fatigue

 

[Kdem]

dopamimetic,
'Clonidine + Memantine (high dose, 60+mg) can take you off opioids with skipping most of the withdrawal. In a few days. Confirmed.'
If only that worked for clonazepam ...

 

[neversickanymore]

^ if it were that easy everyone would be doing it

Benzo Information

BENZODIAZEPINES: HOW THEY WORK AND HOW TO WITHDRAW (aka The Ashton Manual)
Benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome Wiki

benzos are a very easy drug to taper off. This is because to my knowledge they don't manipulate the dopamine reward pathway and such do not cause addiction. Just drop your dose at an acceptable level for you once every two weeks or follow the manual

PAWS LINKS
Why We Don’t Get Better Immediately: Post-acute Withdrawal Syndrome (PAWS)
Post-acute-withdrawal syndrome Wiki

Exercise and Brain Neurotransmission
Neurobiology of Exercise
Aerobic Exercise
Exercise 4 Health, Mental Health, and Addiction vs. The Endorphin Factory
Exercise 4 Health, Mental Health, and Addiction vs. I worked all that out
exercise and sleep

Chemicals and supplements to recover from opiate addiction
Diet & Neurogenesis

 

[Kdem]

neversickanymore,

'benzos are a very easy drug to taper off' If only that were true. I'd rather have a hardcore opiate addiction.

For me, looking back in the past, temazepam was easy to taper off. Even clonazepam was easy to taper off after short term use.
Clonazepam is rather hardcore and has an extremely harsh effect and side effect profile, it affects me in ways you presumably can't image, and its very long half life basically forces you taper very slowly. On of the downsides of that is that something can go wrong easily. Even taking a higer dose only once (by accident) can screw up a taper.

If wish that the things in your posts applied to me. Even when I was young, exercise increased sleep latency.
I thought 'I'm tired, why can't I sleep ?'

 

[neversickanymore]

I withdrew from methadone, oxy, and xanax all at the same time. It was rough but i got thru it.

Hope you are able to figure your situation out.