• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

What the fuck means therapeutic doses of amphetamine doesn't cause neurotoxicity???

logarithm

Bluelighter
Joined
Aug 11, 2012
Messages
62
Hey,
I was searching literature for hints on neurotoxicity with amphetamine for ADHD. It seems that therapeutic doses doesn't cause dopamine neurons damage. But Illicit dosing would kill neurons. Often there are tests done with animals. Also in the papers you can find the dosage. But wtf does that mean? Where end therapeutic doses and where start illicit doses? Also with which factor you have to calculate the dose for a rat or a monkey to get the correspondent dose for a human? And does someone exactly knows which are the neurotoxic mechanisms for amphetamine and in which region(s) in the brain the damage happen, and why methylphenidate is not neurotoxic? I'm totaly clueless, but I need to know that stuff. Hope there is a savant out there which can shed some light... I'm very insecure because I have problems with the dosage of my amphetamine medication and often have the impression that the dosage is too high. I prefer amphetamine over methylphenidate, but this neurotoxicity panicmongering about amphetamines is such a terrible pain in the ass.
 
It would be helpful if you could add a link to the paper(s) you are referring to, otherwise it is very hard for people to say something about the research results.

In general I would say that with things like this it is not so simple to draw a line between neurotoxicity and no neurotoxicity because it probably creeps in gradually. So where the line is drawn depends on how much neurotoxicity is said to be significant. Significance is key here. The same thing goes for most if not all other gradual processes because by definition there is no boundary so one must be defined.

If you really don't know what are common doses for amphetamine to be prescribed for ADHD you can try to scoure the net for doses that people mention and draw conclusions based on the low end doses because I really think that it is much more common for amphetamine, dexamphetamine or methylphenidate to be prescribed in overdose than underdose. Because while a part of GPs or psychiatrists will put in effort to find the sweet spot with a patient/client, some will just try to carpetbomb the "problem" because they might be ignorant or lazy or god knows what.

I am definitely not an expert on this but I think that amphetamine can cause neurotoxicity because extra dopamine is released which oxidizes to the quinone metabolite via a mechanism that creates a radical as an intermediate. Radicals are the cause of oxidative stress, they can react with other chemicals to form new radicals in a chain reaction until they are scavenged. Anti-oxidants can do this.
Methylphenidate may perhaps be less problematic because it does not release extra dopamine in the synapse, instead it makes existing dopamine hang around longer in the synapse instead of being taken up again. On one hand more dopamine being in the synapse is an effect these drugs have in common, but there is a subtle difference since with amphetamine there is more dopamine despite it being taken up again, so overall there is still more present, but it is not all active (in the synapse).
Apparently this is a significant difference, I'm sure the body has certain ways to deal with a relatively normal quantity of dopamine being around that will be metabolized when not taken up again, not sure if MAO-B is the one to do it in this situation... in any case if the amount of dopamine overwhelms this system that is supposed to remove and recycle "used" dopamine you get that it auto-oxidizes: the dopamine degrades on its own.

Your question therefore seems to be related to how much dopamine the brain can handle without the enzymes responsible for breakdown being saturated. I do not know what kind of doses of amphetamine would cause that and it may very well vary a lot between individuals.
It seems when I reconsider, that neurotoxicity may creeping in gradually may not mean the same as 'in a linear fashion', and at some point - the mentioned saturation point of the system - toxicity would get worse much faster.
 
hmm.. I need to think on that. Do you have an article which explains and show the mechanism(s) of killing the dopamine neurons? Later I'll hope to find the time to add some infos from articles to my post, like you proposed.
 
Search some of my threads, I have a few good review articles posted. It's partly due to some doses overcoming your body's defence mechanisms.
 
No sorry, this is compiled info partially from things I learned over time and the rest I found on the fly.

It seems I am not being corrected by EA, I'll take that as a good thing. But you can certainly interest me in those threads of yours.
 
^you're right about that particular mechanism however the oxidative stress bit isn't the only process involved. I'd like to be more in depth but I'm in the middle of a 7 hour drive through the flattest part of Canada on my way to a med interview. Holy Christ is this Prarie bleak...
 
From the depths of my ass I bring you: 0.25-0.5mg/kg or 35mg for a 150ish pound individual. Seems like the area where things start being flagged for potential neurotoxicity in some studies I've read. However, this is by no means definitive.
 
From the depths of my ass I bring you: 0.25-0.5mg/kg or 35mg for a 150ish pound individual. Seems like the area where things start being flagged for potential neurotoxicity in some studies I've read. However, this is by no means definitive.

I know you meant pharma amps but ill add my street amp data and experience in terms of dosing since it might help other readers and honestly its a topic that needs some attention due the issues and risks with ensuring accuracy and safety. I tried to be detailed to ensure no accidental misuse of the methods

Its hard to say really with street meth since its almost impossible to manage this to absolute certainty or perfection in terms of measuring doses. There are a number of problems with ensuring accuracy. There is no easy way to measure this effectively, in my experience, and i dont have a scale or anything like that as im sure many meth users do not either since apparently buying more meth instead of a scale makes more logical sense. Who am i to argue. Also i dont trust the accuracy of some of the eyeballing methods. So this is what i do instead based on leanings from other experienced users.

With all that said, safe dosage for street meth in crystal form specifically is usually reasonably sized or what is often called medium or average lines as per the line measurement standards that I learned with previous coke usage (as determined and prob equal in my case mostly to the width of a credit card, but a bit skinner then a line of coke usually would be as per normal.

Any amp user will know what i mean and in terms indicating size by match length or other inaccurate means leaves to much room for error in my opinion and therefore risky. Whos to say matches are the same size here then they are elsewhere for example?

Then secondly the dose is also largely influenced by how many shards fall out of the bag for that particular dosing session, and this can differ to a significant degree and impact accuracy, more then some might think, so it does cause additional issues with accuracy and my investigations have shown this is mostly caused by the shard consistency/size, which differs significantly even within one order or gram, and then weight as part of this factor.

This issue unfortunately influences the potential "fall rate" consistency effecting the volume reliability you might get each time you attempt to shake a specific quantity out of the bag (usually little ziplock one i my case which has the added issue of the substance getting caught or delayed on the "zip/close lines or groves on the bag" and therefore further impacting the end result quantity and overall accuracy. Hopefully others have superior packaging and dont have this added nightmare to deal with.

I have asked my guy to please ensure more consistency in the shard format he provides and use different bags that improve the flow or fall rate to a more consistent level that can be relied upon at least to a small degree. I did say this would help users more tightly control dosages but I have not noticed any change in deliveries and im sure these guys don't frankly care how safely we dose, once they make the sale, its not their concern. Pfft.

I could crush it all up to help things but then the product would be out of the bag and again we have the issue of inaccurate dosage. Cant do the whole bag obviously, crushed or not, it would still be to much either way. And crushing it in the bag can damage the bag and spill product, a nightmare for those with carpets causing issues with product retrieval later one as well. Or at least it does sometimes tear with my low quality zip crap baggies.

It was a silly choice honestly but I do prefer it to stupid wrapped up bits of plastic like with coke since once again the suppliers dont consider that users might not be plastic knot tying geniuses like they are and an opened piece of plastic that cant be tied up again, especially not by a jittery coke head is just stupid and leads to spillage of product often then not onto some germ ridden surface like a public toilet seat. Perhaps i dont give them enough credit and spillage is the goal leading to faster reordering. Damn Scum.

Back on point, I dont see why i should have to deal with formatting the product when its the suppliers job to provide the format requested, its a matter of principle really so i refuse to do this myself, though i admit its good to see shards in your purchase as a way to ensure quality to some degree. Seeing powder might concern me over getting shitty cut amps or that vile amp sulphate they try to pass off as real amps sometimes. Its not ideal overall but i dont see any other way to improve this situation as long as the suppliers are not willing to see reason.

Also orally, my other and only ROA, the dosage is greater usually in the beginning for new users since the shards that fall out are still intact and it seems to the discerning eye as if the dose is smaller then it really is compared to crushed version used for nasal (crystals are compacted see), so usually oral is a greater dose then nasal, but not sure to what degree exactly, however it was certinally felt as a stronger dose.

Experienced users will have taken note of this and modified oral volume to take this into account, but beginners should be careful of this risk. Oral is still very efficient and problems with increased dosage can be felt strongly in this regard, though usually only as more fun and good times, but still.

I have factored this issue in myself as well and try to reduce the oral dose appropriately, but in this case its still somewhat inaccurate and its not always possible to ensure a max amount, and not a crumb more so to speak, since when the shards fall out the bag sometimes a few sneak past, it cant be helped, this again as mentioned is due to the consistency issue with different sized crystals and this still often skews my attempt at controlled dosage. It gets better with practice however but it will never be perfect.

I understand however that the few that make it past is not a cause for concern or anything and will not be enough to cause any sort of issue, beyond slightly increased effects and therefore all things considered it is still an acceptable risk. It still bothers me though since im anal about these things and I would prefer to be able to ensure fully accurate dosing. Any ideas on this beyond finding a new guy who is willing to listen to customer feedback?

Now in terms of the health issues as queried, for those exact doses and for me personally, as we all differ, I have not noticed or felt any neurotoxicity or issues in this regard. I do however ensure proper health habits, supplementation, good old ch mag, i love thee and even go as far as proper glutathione supplements for some extra powerful anti oxidant love just to be safe (which i believe is somewhat related to neurotoxicity?).

I will say that so far compared to MDMA, which destroyed my brain in less time then meth has been used, with zero bad effects in comparison, it is seemingly harmless, though im sure thats not quite true, but at least in my experiences and at my very specific doses it seems ok. I believe dopamine is more forgiving then Serotonin in this regard, which is a shame since this just seems like an unnecessary and cruel joke on the MDMA users to be honest with many like myself having to learn this the hard way.

Anyways, others may differ obviously and my specific doses might not be right for everybody. Any improvements or suggestions on my method would be appreciated.
 
Last edited:
As per the creeping, and not to sound pollyanna about the subject, but I've always wondered if extreme coffee / caffeine consumption...along with dehydration and adrenal fatigue...is neurotoxic. Perhaps not 'significantly'...but still...thanks for reading my meager 2cents.
 
are you tweaked or are you tweaked

Naa i think the OP is referring to a previous experience and is not currently under the influence. Not 100% sure though however but the wall of text paragraph formatting does offer some hints in this regard so im not really sure but will refrain from making a guess or accusation either way.
 
I've read so many conflicting reports on whether therapeutic doses for amp cause neurotoxicity or not. I've seen a few studies that say amp at therapeutic doses cause neurotoxicity - but then again, therepeutic dose could be between 5-50mg (sometimes higher, but.) and what is classified as neurotoxicity - dopamine neuron death, or physical alterations in the brain....

Such a touchy topic and I think honestly the reason why there is no solid studies or proof is because amp is such a widely prescribed drug so the blatant truth is probably hidden, for the best? Now its an ethical issue.

All I say is take anti oxidants, if your using therapeutically to live a normal life, such as ADHD or narcolepsy then I wouldnt be worried about it, more so the recreational use/binge sessions that neurotoxicity would be an issue.
 
I'm in the school of thought that therapeutic amphetamine doses don't cause significant degrees of neurotoxicity. I really haven't read, or seen much saying otherwise.
 
From the depths of my ass I bring you: 0.25-0.5mg/kg or 35mg for a 150ish pound individual. Seems like the area where things start being flagged for potential neurotoxicity in some studies I've read. However, this is by no means definitive.

But doesn't it depends on how much dopamine discharged? If you have (acute)tolerance then lower amounts of dopamine get metabolized = low neurotoxicity although higher doses??? Do you mean D-amphetamine or d/l-amphetamine? Might you send me some links to some of your posts... you have over 800 posts.
 
lifestyle and behavior are probably going to have a greater impact on the degree of, if any neurotoxicity, than the compound alone.
 
But doesn't it depends on how much dopamine discharged?

As far as I know, no. Just because you're tolerant to amphetamine doesn't raise the threshold where damage happens.
 
As far as I know, no. Just because you're tolerant to amphetamine doesn't raise the threshold where damage happens.

So then it isn't about the amount of dopamine. Then the neurotoxicity doesn't come from metabolilizing dopamine. So where you have your information from?
 
Last edited:
No one said the toxicity doesn't come from a dopaminergic action. Also, though there's nothing wrong with asking for a source, he's very highly regarded within our community and his words can be trusted.
 
Top