Thoughts What Modern Classics Would You Recommend For Someone Who Usually Hates Classics?

[unodelacosa]

Just bought it. Holy shit, I had no idea it was so huge! I think it may rival Stephen King's It for word count. I take it you think it's worth it, though?

The count of Monte Cristo is dope. Stephen King has trouble ending his stories, and IT is no exception. I won't "spoil it" for anyone by telling you how IT ends, but if you've read it, you know what I'm talking about. Similarly, The Shining ends poorly and so does The Stand. King ad libs most of his plots as he constructs his prose, and maybe this has something to do with it. Personally I'd rather stick to an outline.

@ChemicallyEnhanced

When you going to load up Shantaram.. it’s straight dope and you won’t be able to set it down.. you can try.. but it won’t work. It’s brilliance.

Shantaram is an excellent book; I second this recommendation. It's a 2003 quasi-autobiographical novel by Gregory David Roberts about a former bank robber / Heroin addict who escapes from a maximum security prison in Australia and flees to Mumbai, India. There he becomes friends with an array of characters in the bustling ex-patriot scene of Bombay/Mumbai in the 1980s, living in the slums after a series of bad luck and poor decisions before eventually running guns to Afghanistan for a wise Indian mobster who helps him redeem himself and look deeper into the meaning of life. It is indeed a very engaging book with well crafted dialogue and a quick pace. As @neversickanymore said, it really is a page-turner.

This was going to be made into a big budget Hollywood production at one point with Warner Bros. having purchased the films' rights for $2 million and Johnny Depp set to star – evidently he's a huge fan of the book as well. However, I think now Depp maybe is still involved, but the project started filming in 2019 as a series for Apple TV. No telling how it will do, but the book is stellar.

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

The count of Monte Cristo is dope. Stephen King has trouble ending his stories, and IT is no exception. I won't "spoil it" for anyone by telling you how IT ends, but if you've read it, you know what I'm talking about. Similarly, The Shining ends poorly and so does The Stand. King ad libs most of his plots as he constructs his prose, and maybe this has something to do with it. Personally I'd rather stick to an outline.

Shantaram is an excellent book; I second this recommendation. It's a 2003 quasi-autobiographical novel by Gregory David Roberts about a former bank robber / Heroin addict who escapes from a maximum security prison in Australia and flees to Mumbai, India. There he becomes friends with an array of characters in the bustling ex-patriot scene of Bombay/Mumbai in the 1980s, living in the slums after a series of bad luck and poor decisions before eventually running guns to Afghanistan for a wise Indian mobster who helps him redeem himself and look deeper into the meaning of life. It is indeed a very engaging book with well crafted dialogue and a quick pace. As @neversickanymore said, it really is a page-turner.

This was going to be made into a big budget Hollywood production at one point with Warner Bros. having purchased the films' rights for $2 million and Johnny Depp set to star – evidently he's a huge fan of the book as well. However, I think now Depp maybe is still involved, but the project started filming in 2019 as a series for Apple TV. No telling how it will do, but the book is stellar.

This following reply contains spoilers for the novels It, Carrie, Pet Semetary and Firestarter by Stephen King



I find Kings endings very hit-or-miss. I actually really liked the ending of the Dark Tower series (I know most hated it). Off the top of my head, I think only Carrie and Pet Semetary had endings I really liked. Like the latter ending with him sitting on the sofa after burying his wife in the ancient Indian burial ground and he hears the door open and someone enter behind him and the last line is "'Honey', it said".
With Carrie I was sad because I was rooting for her (c'mon, they absolutely deserved it), but I thought everything from the red prom onward was brilliant and while I didn't "like" the ending in terms of it wasn't how I'd hoped things would turn out, it genuinely left me feeling cold. It takes a lot for a novels ending to make you actually feel moved.
While I liked the ending to Misery (one of my fav books), I do prefer the alternate ending he almost used (he described it in On Writing) of the last scene being Annie standing with her special "leather bound" copy of Misery's Child, that is bound in Paul's skin.
And of course I liked the "burn it all down, baby, burn it all down" ending of Firestarter.
It's been 21 years since I read It (my first King book, and my first adults book ever, too) so I don't remember the ending that well, but I found It's "true form" lackluster.

 

[Atomic_Decay]

Shantaram is an excellent book; I second this recommendation. It's a 2003 quasi-autobiographical novel by Gregory David Roberts about a former bank robber / Heroin addict who escapes from a maximum security prison in Australia and flees to Mumbai, India. There he becomes friends with an array of characters in the bustling ex-patriot scene of Bombay/Mumbai in the 1980s, living in the slums after a series of bad luck and poor decisions before eventually running guns to Afghanistan for a wise Indian mobster who helps him redeem himself and look deeper into the meaning of life. It is indeed a very engaging book with well crafted dialogue and a quick pace. As @neversickanymore said, it really is a page-turner.

This was going to be made into a big budget Hollywood production at one point with Warner Bros. having purchased the films' rights for $2 million and Johnny Depp set to star – evidently he's a huge fan of the book as well. However, I think now Depp maybe is still involved, but the project started filming in 2019 as a series for Apple TV. No telling how it will do, but the book is stellar.

I really enjoyed reading Shantaram a few years ago and was looking forward to reading the sequel that was supposed to be coming.

However I also read a lot of stuff by people who had known the author during the period covered in the book. From their perspective a lot of it was self-serving bullshit that obscured what a real-low life cunt he really was. In Australia it’s not too difficult for truly heinous criminals to publish their way to popular celebrity status - Chopper Read being the best example.

It all began with the mytholigisation of Ned Kelly (also quite the murderous cunt) way back when.

He should have published it as straight fiction under a pseudonym.

 

[neversickanymore]

My take is its an monumental work. It’s amazing writing about profound subjects. The fact that there is undeniably a legitimate backstory to it makes it all that more powerful. It’s wild good. Sure is it ALL real.. probably not.. but is your life’s narrative? It’s not. Mine isn’t and I feel no ones is. Looking at it for genuine truth is stupid as it needlessly takes away from its brilliance.

 

[Atomic_Decay]

T

My take is its an monumental work. It’s amazing writing about profound subjects. The fact that there is undeniably a legitimate backstory to it makes it all that more powerful. It’s wild good. Sure is it ALL real.. probably not.. but is your life’s narrative? It’s not. Mine isn’t and I feel no ones is. Looking at it for genuine truth is stupid as it needlessly takes away from its brilliance.

There is no doubt that it is a rollicking good read. As i said I really enjoyed it. If I hadn’t subsequently learned more about the author I would rate it highly.

But personally, when it comes to misceants and moral bankrupts recounting their lives I prefer a narrative that shows them eventually reaching some degree of critical self-awareness and humility and wanting some kind of atonement and redemption.

That’s probably the Catholic in me. For me it’s also the difference between a “good read” and a “classic”.

 

[S.J.B.]

Confederacy of Dunces John Kennedy Toole

Seconded, this is my favourite novel, truly a masterpiece.

 

[S.J.B.]

It's been 21 years since I read It (my first King book, and my first adults book ever, too) so I don't remember the ending that well, but I found It's "true form" lackluster.

Man, that made me think about it, and that's only a little longer than I've been reading King. Almost two-thirds of my life, and probably a significant proportion of the total fiction I have read. I started with "Cujo" but really fell in love after the second I read, "The Stand". Unfortunately, a lot of his recent stuff has been atypically bad, and after getting most of the way through "Billy Summers" last year, I put it down and decided I would pick and choose what I read from him instead of stringently reading everything like I had always done. Some of his best work is actually non-horror, with "Hearts in Atlantis" and "Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption" standing out.

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

Man, that made me think about it, and that's only a little longer than I've been reading King. Almost two-thirds of my life, and probably a significant proportion of the total fiction I have read. I started with "Cujo" but really fell in love after the second I read, "The Stand". Unfortunately, a lot of his recent stuff has been atypically bad, and after getting most of the way through "Billy Summers" last year, I put it down and decided I would pick and choose what I read from him instead of stringently reading everything like I had always done. Some of his best work is actually non-horror, with "Hearts in Atlantis" and "Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption" standing out.

Wow, you just made me realize that it IS two thirds of my life (I was 10 when I read It and I'm 30 now).

I take it you didn't enjoy Billy Summers then? I read about 60-70 pages when it first came out, took a break to read something else and haven't gone back to it yet. I will at some point, though, as he's one of the writers where I probably will read everything he brings out. I've read everything except Billy Summers, The Cycle of the Werewolf, The Library Policeman, Roadwork and Danse Macabre (and there are still some short stories in Nightmares and Dreamscapes and Everything's Eventual I haven't read).

 

[unodelacosa]

However I also read a lot of stuff by people who had known the author during the period covered in the book.

Like what? People create controversy where none exists sometimes. The author doesn't present it as pure autobiography, and to me, this is not significantly different from Hunter S. Thompson's “Gonzo Journalism”.

From their perspective a lot of it was self-serving bullshit that obscured what a real-low life cunt he really was.

Oh you know him personally? Otherwise you're talking cash money shit about someone you don't know and basing your decision on what's essentially hearsay. Don't be a hater, and don't believe everything you hear and read. Besides, it's irrelevant.

In Australia it’s not too difficult for truly heinous criminals to publish their way to popular celebrity status - Chopper Read being the best example.

Yeah well… I don't begrudge anyone that minor celebrity status if they entertain us. Chopper served his time, and anyway he had a pretty rough childhood growing up, and I empathise with that. Before dying of Hep C at 58 yrs old, he seemed reflective, perhaps remorseful, from what I've read and seen about him.

It all began with the mytholigisation of Ned Kelly (also quite the murderous cunt) way back when.

Ned died in 1888 at the age of 26. He's another prime example of how incarcerating young people through a so-called “justice system” only serves to institutionalise, radicalise, network, and foster criminality in a new generation of jailhouse fodder. Kelly is also an example of the complex and ambivalent way Australians tend to regard bushrangers and other outlaws from yesteryear. To some, they're iconoclastic anti-heroes / anti-authority rebels fighting back against The Man, but from another perspective they're murderous thugs / homicidal, criminal maniacs better left unglorified. It's interesting, that divided opinion.

He should have published it as straight fiction under a pseudonym.

It is published as fiction.

Taken from Wikipedia:

“On that aspect of Shantaram and of the follow-up novel, The Mountain Shadow, Roberts has stated:​

‘Some experiences from my life are described pretty much as they happened, and others are created narratives, informed by my experience. I wanted to write two or three novels on some bare elements from my life, allowing me to explore the themes that interested me, while keeping the narrative immediate by anchoring it to some of my real experiences. They're novels, not autobiographies, and all of the characters and dialogue is created. It doesn't matter how much of it is true or not to me, it's how true they are to all of us, and to our common humanity.’”​

Personally, I like that response, and I'm satisfied with it.

He should have published it as straight fiction under a pseudonym.

Should the work be considered in a formalist manner, i.e., each piece of "art" should be regarded free from context, even that of the artist(/author), or you know… e.g.,

• Is Remix To Ignition still a good song?
• How about Michael Jackson's oeuvre, or what about the work of Kevin Spacey, the movies funded by Harvey Weinstein, or the brilliant comedy of Louis C.K.?
• Are all of Bill Cosby's comedy specials no longer of any value? How about Chris D'elia?
• Or as South Park stated: "Say what you want about Mel Gibson, but the son of a bitch knows story structure".
• Is everything Lance Armstrong did for raising money for cancer being given back because of his doping? (Answer: fuck no it isn't; good people do bad things sometimes and bad people to good things as well. More to the point, bad people occasionally make sublime works of art, music, literature, film, etc. )

 

[Atomic_Decay]

Like what? People create controversy where none exists sometimes. The author doesn't present it as pure autobiography, and to me, this is not significantly different from Hunter S. Thompson's “Gonzo Journalism”.


Oh you know him personally? Otherwise you're talking cash money shit about someone you don't know and basing your decision on what's essentially hearsay. Don't be a hater, and don't believe everything you hear and read. Besides, it's irrelevant.


Yeah well… I don't begrudge anyone that minor celebrity status if they entertain us. Chopper served his time, and anyway he had a pretty rough childhood growing up, and I empathise with that. Before dying of Hep C at 58 yrs old, he seemed reflective, perhaps remorseful, from what I've read and seen about him.


Ned died in 1888 at the age of 26. He's another prime example of how incarcerating young people through a so-called “justice system” only serves to institutionalise, radicalise, network, and foster criminality in a new generation of jailhouse fodder. Kelly is also an example of the complex and ambivalent way Australians tend to regard bushrangers and other outlaws from yesteryear. To some, they're iconoclastic anti-heroes / anti-authority rebels fighting back against The Man, but from another perspective they're murderous thugs / homicidal, criminal maniacs better left unglorified. It's interesting, that divided opinion.


It is published as fiction.

Taken from Wikipedia:

Personally, I like that response, and I'm satisfied with it.


Should the work be considered in a formalist manner, i.e., each piece of "art" should be regarded free from context, even that of the artist(/author), or you know… e.g.,

• Is Remix To Ignition still a good song?
• How about Michael Jackson's oeuvre, or what about the work of Kevin Spacey, the movies funded by Harvey Weinstein, or the brilliant comedy of Louis C.K.?
• Are all of Bill Cosby's comedy specials no longer of any value? How about Chris D'elia?
• Or as South Park stated: "Say what you want about Mel Gibson, but the son of a bitch knows story structure".
• Is everything Lance Armstrong did for raising money for cancer being given back because of his doping? (Answer: fuck no it isn't; good people do bad things sometimes and bad people to good things as well. More to the point, bad people occasionally make sublime works of art, music, literature, film, etc. )

Lol: I want you to come to my book club meetings!

It’s over 10 years since I read that book and i remember seeing a few interviews with the author and then reading a couple of articles quoting people who knew him. I recall him doing his best to make people believe it was all real but only the names were changed.

I’m not over invested in it - but I was always disgusted by the celebrity status choper read got and it seemed he was chasing something similar.

 

[S.J.B.]

I take it you didn't enjoy Billy Summers then?

I haven't found his true-crime-ish books particularly compelling and especially didn't like most of the Mr. Mercedes/Mr. Mercedes-adjacent content and Billy Summers. Everything else he's written I've enjoyed, however, which is saying a lot given the size of his oeuvre.

 

[unodelacosa]

I was always disgusted by the celebrity status choper read got and it seemed he was chasing something similar.

Yeah but who is really to blame for that? Society, right? And so what good does it do to be disgusted by the way society is?

I guess it's that prayer of serenity concept again: “Grant me the serenity to accept what I can't change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.” Just because something is trite doesn't mean it isn't pithy. Regardless of religious context, desire of these traits—serenity, courage, wisdom—is probably a smart approach to living. And again: if Chopper came up a little by selling out embellished, violence-glorifying memoirs for others to take a vicarious thrill ride through, then good for him. I still wouldn't trade my life for his—even if he hadn't died too young from Hepatitis C complications—would you?

I guess it can be difficult to accept that there is a part of society—really, a part in all of us, I think—who get a vicarious thrill watching the world die around us. We love murder mysteries and suspense thrillers. People watch the shit out of "true crime" television shows and love crazy stories "based on a true story" or "based on real events" (really though, what isn't?) People are obsessed with serial killers, war, weaponry, stories of industrial accidents and nuclear plant meltdowns, calamity and chaos, just as much as people are generally given to order, civility, and conformity. In the right context, all of these polemic concepts have individual merits. I suspect we're all functional addicts of this, as it were, lapping up stories of violence around us, but also delighting in feelings of camaraderie. It's in our sports, and our entertainment, and it's definitely in "The News", which I think they would just call "The Bad News" except it's all offset by the fact that the good news is that none of it is you, the viewer safely at home glued to the newscast if it's sensational enough.

Jumping gears, has anyone mentioned William Gibson's Neuromancer yet? It's excellent fiction with really stylish, ahead-of-its-time prose.

Chuck Palahniuk of Fight Club fame writes really excellent, minimalist fiction novels featuring very clever, terse prose, snappy dialogue, and grotesque imagery used imaginatively for comedic shock effect. I mentioned Rant earlier, but Choke is good, Pygmy, Invisible Monsters, really you can't go wrong with Palahniuk. He's a minimalist who takes a lot of inspiration from the minimalist author Amy Hempel, whose work I also recommend, though it is only similar to Palahniuk's work in it's minimalist approach. The subject matter is usually vastly different.

Also highly recommended is Neal Stephenson's Cryptonomicon and the trilogy, The Baroque Cycle (Quicksilver, The Confusion, and The System Of The World).

 

[neversickanymore]

T

There is no doubt that it is a rollicking good read. As i said I really enjoyed it. If I hadn’t subsequently learned more about the author I would rate it highly.

But personally, when it comes to misceants and moral bankrupts recounting their lives I prefer a narrative that shows them eventually reaching some degree of critical self-awareness and humility and wanting some kind of atonement and redemption.

That’s probably the Catholic in me. For me it’s also the difference between a “good read” and a “classic”.

Catholic.. right on. I was raised Catholic and attended a Catholic HS. Since you seem to have strong faith we would just bump heads on that level.

I think the story told shows a significant amount critical self awareness and growth. He was an addicted armed robber that lost his young love and family to his mayhem and was thrown into a brutal prison system designed to break people. He escaped and became a much better and wiser man. Not overnight as he had a long way to go.

Ill page through it and get some specific quotes about what I’m talking about. He tells a story about the macho fool he was when the events happened, but in looking back he strongly acknowledges his flaws and what a idiot he was.

Also look at the biggest and most admired and praised character in the book.. Prabacker. Why did he feel this way and write the book this way. He was a slum dweller from the sticks that had a heart and mind of gold and dreamed of driving a taxi. He specifically warned off Khan.

Why did the Khan die in such a stupid pointless fashion? Why did Khans explanation of the order of the universe explicitly go against what science already has proven. Khans take was the exact opposite of reality.

Entropy: Why Life Always Seems to Get More Complicated

Read this article and learn what to do when chaos rules your life.

jamesclear.com

Entropy

labman.phys.utk.edu

Who were the hero’s praised in the book and who’s happy, who’s lives turned out well and who met horrific ends. How was his life when he was in the different phases. 4 sure he intended to write it that way.

It’s a major work that covers so much. I think the story is so good people get all hung up on the tale and forget that it’s literature.. worry about if it was completely accurate. Instead of looking at it as a biography look at it as literary fiction?


What have you learned about Gregory that turns you off so much?

People will get this work.. like it often goes.. it’s just going to take a bit.. some uni lit professors maybe pull some shit out of their ass and get things rolling.

It’s major and possibly pretty foreign to most lit profs.. though that may not be fair as they may have lived exciting dysfunctional lives as well.

 

[Atomic_Decay]

Ok ok! i promise no commenting on half remembered books from decades ago any more!!!!

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

Yeah but who is really to blame for that? Society, right? And so what good does it do to be disgusted by the way society is?

I guess it's that prayer of serenity concept again: “Grant me the serenity to accept what I can't change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.” Just because something is trite doesn't mean it isn't pithy. Regardless of religious context, desire of these traits—serenity, courage, wisdom—is probably a smart approach to living. And again: if Chopper came up a little by selling out embellished, violence-glorifying memoirs for others to take a vicarious thrill ride through, then good for him. I still wouldn't trade my life for his—even if he hadn't died too young from Hepatitis C complications—would you?

I guess it can be difficult to accept that there is a part of society—really, a part in all of us, I think—who get a vicarious thrill watching the world die around us. We love murder mysteries and suspense thrillers. People watch the shit out of "true crime" television shows and love crazy stories "based on a true story" or "based on real events" (really though, what isn't?) People are obsessed with serial killers, war, weaponry, stories of industrial accidents and nuclear plant meltdowns, calamity and chaos, just as much as people are generally given to order, civility, and conformity. In the right context, all of these polemic concepts have individual merits. I suspect we're all functional addicts of this, as it were, lapping up stories of violence around us, but also delighting in feelings of camaraderie. It's in our sports, and our entertainment, and it's definitely in "The News", which I think they would just call "The Bad News" except it's all offset by the fact that the good news is that none of it is you, the viewer safely at home glued to the newscast if it's sensational enough.

Jumping gears, has anyone mentioned William Gibson's Neuromancer yet? It's excellent fiction with really stylish, ahead-of-its-time prose.

Chuck Palahniuk of Fight Club fame writes really excellent, minimalist fiction novels featuring very clever, terse prose, snappy dialogue, and grotesque imagery used imaginatively for comedic shock effect. I mentioned Rant earlier, but Choke is good, Pygmy, Invisible Monsters, really you can't go wrong with Palahniuk. He's a minimalist who takes a lot of inspiration from the minimalist author Amy Hempel, whose work I also recommend, though it is only similar to Palahniuk's work in it's minimalist approach. The subject matter is usually vastly different.

Also highly recommended is Neal Stephenson's Cryptonomicon and the trilogy, The Baroque Cycle (Quicksilver, The Confusion, and The System Of The World).

Palahniuk is fucking BRILLIANT! What are your favourite(s) by him? I just discovered him a few months ago. So far I've read Haunted, Fight Club, Invisible Monsters (Remix), Damned and Survivor (and a bunch of short stories, I think the collection was called Make Something Up or something like that). Really liked everything so far.

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

What does everyone think of Kafka's The Castle? I'm divided on whether to read it or not. I really liked The Metamorphosis and all of his short fiction but was disappointed with The Trial (which seems to be his most popular :/). I was really interested in it as first and liked the very end, but for most of it, it just kinda droned on monotonously without anything happening.

 

[unodelacosa]

Palahniuk is fucking BRILLIANT! What are your favourite(s) by him? I just discovered him a few months ago. So far I've read Haunted, Fight Club, Invisible Monsters (Remix), Damned and Survivor (and a bunch of short stories, I think the collection was called Make Something Up or something like that). Really liked everything so far.

Choke had me actually laughing out loud while I was reading it. That, to me, is a surefire sign something is truly funny –if I literally "lol" while no one else is around. Umm so I think Rant was probably my favorite of his novels, but also Lullaby was interesting. It's funny because at the time I was clipping through his oeuvre, I was also reading through the massive tomes of David Foster Wallace. Compared to Palahniuk's terse prose, Foster's discursive-but-brilliant ramblings made for a nice, stark contrast in style.

Try reading a few short stories by Amy Hempel and her influence on Palahniuk is pretty clear.

Actually I need to catch up – I think Damned is the last thing of his I read.

What does everyone think of Kafka's The Castle? I'm divided on whether to read it or not. I really liked The Metamorphosis and all of his short fiction but was disappointed with The Trial (which seems to be his most popular :/). I was really interested in it as first and liked the very end, but for most of it, it just kinda droned on monotonously without anything happening.

If you were disappointed with The Trial, 1. that's probably because everyone blew it up in your head too much, so a let down was perhaps inevitable, and 2. perhaps you should skip The Castle and read… let's see… have you read any Camus yet? How about Vonnegut? Philip K. Dick is another good choice that comes to mind. Umm, oh I know what's in line with that kind of literature – try reading Fyodor Dostoyevsky's Notes From Underground. It's actually a very quick read in general, not just for a Dostoyevsky novel.

 

[Atomic_Decay]

What does everyone think of Kafka's The Castle? I'm divided on whether to read it or not. I really liked The Metamorphosis and all of his short fiction but was disappointed with The Trial (which seems to be his most popular :/). I was really interested in it as first and liked the very end, but for most of it, it just kinda droned on monotonously without anything happening.

The Castle was an unfinished work when he died and he expressly did not want it published.

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

Finished Naked Lunch yesterday. Really loved it!

Started A Little Life by Hanya Yanagihara today [published in 2015, but still considered a Modern Classic]

 

[unodelacosa]

The Castle was an unfinished work when he died and he expressly did not want it published.

This happened to Hemingway too when his children published his unpublished works posthumously. Sometimes there's a reason things go unpublished.

David Foster Wallace's incomplete work, The Pale King, was published posthumously, but I have no idea if he was okay with this or not. Probably.