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What makes a thing divine or holy? What qualifies someone to be a spritual teacher?

VerbalTruist

VerbalTruist

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I would like to preface this post by saying that I am quite well studied in the religions of the world, the rhetoric from/of and surrounding various faiths, their practice(s), and while I have heard and understand the answers from the faithful to the questions and thoughts that I will produce in this post... The answers that I have been provided by the faithful don't hold enough water for me. On to the post right?

Something that I have discussed with a number of people over the years is the concept of something being revered and holy. For example, Christians believe that the bible is either the word of God or that it was written by people who were "filled with the spirit". Recently, I spoke to a devout Jehovah's Witness who would circle around to numerous portions of both the Old and New Testament. I can accept that the Bible was written by people inspired by their faith. There is enough history for me to believe that the bible isn't a book that a bunch of early Christians cooked up to keep their numbers growing. However, the statements that the Bible is "the word of God" is not something that I can buy into. Looking at Islam, we can examine the historical record and know Mohamed existed. He probably wrote the Qur'an by himself. What is to say that he wasn't trying to unite disputing tribes? That, to do this, he knew it would require divine inspiration and so he went through with it. I respect that someone else might hold the belief that the Bible or the Qur'an are holy, but they are artifacts created by human beings.

Humans are flawed and every person has their own reasons for doing what they do. Why can we trust something that has been created by people? What criteria does something have to meet to become holy? I am mostly Buddhist by practice. I have read, thought, and wrote about a lot of the texts from the various branches of Buddhism. I have spoken to people about aspects of Buddhism and almost any other faith. When someone says "His holiness the Dali Llama" (for example), although I don't say anything, I do mentally step back and think "Why not just say 'the Dali Llama'? What is the need for adding the prefix? We can both acknowledge his wisdom, but again humans declared him to be the reincarnation. He was raised from a young age and indoctrinated in teachings. Why wouldn't he take on and believe the mantle that he was raised in? I like many of his teachings and writings, but they aren't holy to me.

Another thing I have trouble with that touches on this area are 'gurus', priests, etc. Consistent spiritual advisors or teachers shape people to their own belief and practice. I talk to a priest on occasion because he's known me through a lot of my past life issues. I have a friend who is a pastor at a Presbyterian church. We talk about issues of faith, but they aren't my teachers. With a guru, I have seen people shape themselves to the teachings of the guru even if they didn't agree with the teachings. These sort of spiritual relationships bother me quite a bit. Why tailor what you think is right or correct on a religious or moral level to that of someone else? If they have gone through lots of study, I understand that.

An example from recent experience, I was asked to start a guided meditation from a co-worker because I have been meditating for a long time. It started with one person and went for 5 months. By the end of the 5 months there were 12 regulars rain or shine once a week. After one session someone came to me after and asked "What should I be reading?" This led to a long conversation about what they wanted to know more about. Ultimately, I suggested 5 readings and told them that they should journal their own thoughts about what they think. For a week, I thought about this and asked the person I started with to lead the session. When they asked why I said that people are starting to take my words as direction. That wasn't a role I believe in. That we all have to find ourselves and while some help is okay I didn't want anyone thinking that I was better or more able than them to find themselves and their path. The person responded that they would lead the session, but that people were paying close attention to me. It was at that point I noticed the regulars would have copies of the book I was reading. So I asked them why and the genral response was that I must be reading it for a reason. At the time it was a collection of HST stuff from his time on the campaign trial of Nixon. While it was relevant to my thinking at the time, it wasn't anything I was ready to address, and I wouldn't be teaching my thoughts on it, but I would discuss it with them. From then on, I rotated the leaders of the meditation and had coffee with people to discuss their thoughts on basically anything. It became an open discussion rather than me telling them how to think. After 5 months, schedules changed and I still do a guided every two weeks.

I can acknowledge the wisdom of many texts. I cannot ascribe holy or divine attributes to anything because they are creations from human beings. Citing the Bible to support the writings within as the word of God, isn't enough for me. I was raised Catholic. I understand the dogma. This leads me to my questions... If you believe that something can be holy, what is the threshold? Is it within your own faith? Do you subscribe to one faith or are you more spiritual (for lack of a better word)? Past a sign of respect, it is something I logically understand, but do not grasp from a faith standpoint. Anyone who could help me understand more clearly this issue of holy and divine... I would appreciate it and a discussion around it.

Hope you are all well,
VerbalTruist
 
No worries. I may have took you wrong but I think I agree in the sense that I just feel that we are all individuals with different paths, life -experiences, backgrounds, our inherit beings/souls etc that our beliefs should come from within us or from the 'higher power' if there is one and not from another human but that's just me.
I think as well that when it comes down to it we don't know why we are and what brought us to life here etc etc! We can all have our own beliefs but nothing is factual as it's beyond us. Slightly ironic me even saying that lol because I truly believe it's up to the individual to decide (or not decide) what they feel without outside influence but then I'm not exactly a priest here preaching to people on bluelight saying that my opinion on the matter is what you should also believe for example and that's where I just think it gets to a point that is pretty fucked up in a way e.g. scared to get a divorce from abusive partner because it's a sin - which happens for a fact. Although I agree as well with you about the fact there is useful scripture throughout different religions.
As a human I've come to believe our soul is in a physical vessel and although I may have been influenced by other people, drugs experience to come to this point I feel like for me that is what I feel inside and come from outside (from what I call a higher power) thats guided me here. Ive always tended to resist religion because I felt I was being moulded to think a certain way by other humans about something that no human understands completely.
We are only human, we are nature and only know so much. Religion (imo) is a manifestation of people beliefs, and a way to make sense of what makes no sense - not facts -and therefore nobody should (imo) preach to others of what to believe in, or not believe in. I feel like because we are basically part of nature we just don't have the capability to know as humans in the physical, which is a fact because really nobody knows for a fact. And I just feel that any religion that claims to know or be 'right' is imo wrong because they can't prove it and no human can. We can only believe in things. Therefore any guru, priest etc that try for instance converting people or influencing people to think a certain way about precious life and inevitable death, are in a way overstepping the mark (imo). Just because they are convinced or 'believe' strongly in their theory doesn't mean it's true. For example, people who refuse medical treatment in some situations and die because they so strongly believe what they have been taught. But again I respect everyone's own choice in what they believe and that really it's the individual in their own mind who should (imo) seek their own beliefs without any outside influences from other humans - and if that means following a religion fair enough! I just don't like how we have religion being taught in schools and stuff from adolescence moulding our perceptions and stuff. Then again - if there is a creator who am I to say that this isn't meant to happen.
I hope that made some sense I rambled a bit trying to explain the same point lol. In the end I don't think it matters or if it does we aren't supposed to know for certain. Personally I feel like if I'm a shitty person I will be miserable because I have a conscious and if I try my best as a human to treat others the way I would like to be treated then I feel I'm doing something 'right' that's what keeps me from going insane anyway... as people we can and should be good influences on each other but this must be based on fact e.g. harm reduction on Bluelight ....but again beyond facts we just don't know when it comes to the meaning of life and what not so how could myself or any other human be able to advise or guide others from their own belief if nobody knows for sure (emphasis on 'imo').
 
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What makes something holy is not decided by the people but rather the frequency in which a particular figure or object holds in relation to our frequency as a human species in a certain stage of our species evolution.

Something can appear holy to us when it is something that is so outside of our normal range of viewing and experiencing things and cannot be comprehended by the modern day framework of the time. It is advanced in nature and usually causes confusion and conflict amongst the individuals who are coming into contact with it.

I wouldn’t really say that the modern day version of what is considered holy is really something to hold onto as truth. They are following tradition and trying to preserve past knowledge and wisdom that has already been distorted and corrupted by the many generations before. In the time of their ancestors they were truly in the presence of something that defied the laws of physics and could have seemed like something like magic. But their primitive interpretations makes it impossible to really grasp the nature of the things that they would consider holy for it is the only word that they knew how to describe it.

They did not have the capacity to fully understand what was happening before them and so their written accounts should not be taken wholeheartedly. But it is important to remember that there is still some validity to those old accounts in the sense that there was some sort of special event or phenomenon that occurred which they try to document in the best way they know how. But when you are looking at those documentations and interpretations from a 21st century point of view it can seem like it is just nonsense altogether. That is basically where the modern day skepticism comes from and causes people to take a more scientific and secular approach to things.

It’s the same thing that happened with Jesus. The disciples themselves did not understand everything Jesus was saying by a long shot. And a lot of the books in the Bible are not even written by the actual people that they are talking about and in most cases talking about someone who existed 2,000 years before they did which should give you perspective on how much generational gaps had to have occured before we have reached the point that we are in today. And because of that there is so much potential for misinterpretation and mistranslation of certain words or phrases or meanings and also just out right tampering with and inserting falsehoods that are only created to cause confusion and despair and conflict and separation and to maintain political power.

You will know when something is holy when it defies our modern day attitude of what we consider to be real or possible. The problem is that many people are too steeped in fear and resistance to even experience something like what our ancestors experienced when things were not as complex and technological and crowded. There is too much bad energy in the human consciousness so they will not be a match to a lot of things that are considered holy and they will only validate their own perpetual belief system that our world is lifeless with random chance and probability governing our lives.

To experience something that is truly holy and not just a superficial shell of holiness that is perpetuated in religions, you must become holy yourself and that means not being limited by scientific and secular ideas that take over your belief system. To be in the presence of something that is truly holy you will feel a change in your perception just by being around them/it. You will feel an emotional and psychological change just by being in the same room as them. If something is far beyond our dimension and you happen to come into contact with it it can literally kill you. Your 3 dimensional body will not be able to withstand the energy field of that person or thing that is being called holy. That is the stories you hear of the ark of the covenant and how they say that if you look god in the face you will die. It is a real thing that has happened to people and that in my opinion is what I consider to be true genuine holiness. Not the churches way of calling something or someone holy because it is tradition. You will not find much holiness in established organizations that are imbedded into the fabric of the social system. You will probably only find it in satanic cults and places that are outside of modern industrialized life.
 
Too cerebral.

Yes, habits and customs can become traditions, traditions can become dogmas, and dogmas can become doctrines. This is true.

However, things that are holy, divine and sacred are things that put you in touch with spirit. It's as simple as that.

I'm not going to intellectually qualify what "spirit" means. I don't do that anymore. There is nothing logical or linguistic about it. You either recognize it or you don't. Those who know what it means to feel spirit will be able to recount experiences in their lives when the spiritual connection was active and strong. Sometimes it's spontaneous and sometimes it's generated through a constructed location or ritual. It all depends.

Humans may be flawed but every human being has the facility to feel their own spirit. It's practically one's birth right. Anything that helps you do that is holy.
 
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VerbalTruist said:
I would like to preface this post by saying that I am quite well studied in the religions of the world, the rhetoric from/of and surrounding various faiths, their practice(s), and while I have heard and understand the answers from the faithful to the questions and thoughts that I will produce in this post... The answers that I have been provided by the faithful don't hold enough water for me. On to the post right?

Something that I have discussed with a number of people over the years is the concept of something being revered and holy. For example, Christians believe that the bible is either the word of God or that it was written by people who were "filled with the spirit". Recently, I spoke to a devout Jehovah's Witness who would circle around to numerous portions of both the Old and New Testament. I can accept that the Bible was written by people inspired by their faith. There is enough history for me to believe that the bible isn't a book that a bunch of early Christians cooked up to keep their numbers growing. However, the statements that the Bible is "the word of God" is not something that I can buy into. Looking at Islam, we can examine the historical record and know Mohamed existed. He probably wrote the Qur'an by himself. What is to say that he wasn't trying to unite disputing tribes? That, to do this, he knew it would require divine inspiration and so he went through with it. I respect that someone else might hold the belief that the Bible or the Qur'an are holy, but they are artifacts created by human beings.

Humans are flawed and every person has their own reasons for doing what they do. Why can we trust something that has been created by people? What criteria does something have to meet to become holy? I am mostly Buddhist by practice. I have read, thought, and wrote about a lot of the texts from the various branches of Buddhism. I have spoken to people about aspects of Buddhism and almost any other faith. When someone says "His holiness the Dali Llama" (for example), although I don't say anything, I do mentally step back and think "Why not just say 'the Dali Llama'? What is the need for adding the prefix? We can both acknowledge his wisdom, but again humans declared him to be the reincarnation. He was raised from a young age and indoctrinated in teachings. Why wouldn't he take on and believe the mantle that he was raised in? I like many of his teachings and writings, but they aren't holy to me.

Another thing I have trouble with that touches on this area are 'gurus', priests, etc. Consistent spiritual advisors or teachers shape people to their own belief and practice. I talk to a priest on occasion because he's known me through a lot of my past life issues. I have a friend who is a pastor at a Presbyterian church. We talk about issues of faith, but they aren't my teachers. With a guru, I have seen people shape themselves to the teachings of the guru even if they didn't agree with the teachings. These sort of spiritual relationships bother me quite a bit. Why tailor what you think is right or correct on a religious or moral level to that of someone else? If they have gone through lots of study, I understand that.

An example from recent experience, I was asked to start a guided meditation from a co-worker because I have been meditating for a long time. It started with one person and went for 5 months. By the end of the 5 months there were 12 regulars rain or shine once a week. After one session someone came to me after and asked "What should I be reading?" This led to a long conversation about what they wanted to know more about. Ultimately, I suggested 5 readings and told them that they should journal their own thoughts about what they think. For a week, I thought about this and asked the person I started with to lead the session. When they asked why I said that people are starting to take my words as direction. That wasn't a role I believe in. That we all have to find ourselves and while some help is okay I didn't want anyone thinking that I was better or more able than them to find themselves and their path. The person responded that they would lead the session, but that people were paying close attention to me. It was at that point I noticed the regulars would have copies of the book I was reading. So I asked them why and the genral response was that I must be reading it for a reason. At the time it was a collection of HST stuff from his time on the campaign trial of Nixon. While it was relevant to my thinking at the time, it wasn't anything I was ready to address, and I wouldn't be teaching my thoughts on it, but I would discuss it with them. From then on, I rotated the leaders of the meditation and had coffee with people to discuss their thoughts on basically anything. It became an open discussion rather than me telling them how to think. After 5 months, schedules changed and I still do a guided every two weeks.

I can acknowledge the wisdom of many texts. I cannot ascribe holy or divine attributes to anything because they are creations from human beings. Citing the Bible to support the writings within as the word of God, isn't enough for me. I was raised Catholic. I understand the dogma. This leads me to my questions... If you believe that something can be holy, what is the threshold? Is it within your own faith? Do you subscribe to one faith or are you more spiritual (for lack of a better word)? Past a sign of respect, it is something I logically understand, but do not grasp from a faith standpoint. Anyone who could help me understand more clearly this issue of holy and divine... I would appreciate it and a discussion around it.

Hope you are all well,
VerbalTruist
Click to expand...

Nothing besides being a good bullshit artist.
 
mr peabody said:
Grace
Click to expand...
As @6am-64-14m said, I too would love to hear your thoughts and expansion that one word response.

Foreigner said:
Too cerebral.
Click to expand...
As in I'm being too cerebral about this? If so, I don't think I am. Putting an academic lens to anything with as much power, for lack of a better word--or maybe that is the correct word, that the concept of holiness or divinity holds has merit.
 
VerbalTruist said:
If you believe that something can be holy, what is the threshold?
Click to expand...

Low for some and high for others.

What I mean is that labels like "holy", are more applicable to groups and tribes than individuals and that they are subjective.

We circle around what is perceived as holy.

In Gnostic Christianity, the threshold for holiness and righteousness is is our tying them to equality for all souls.

Most gods end in losing souls while our god is not so incompetent and saves us all.

Regards
DL
 
VerbalTruist said:
would like to preface this post by saying that I am quite well studied in the religions of the world, the rhetoric from/of and surrounding various faiths, their practice(s), and while I have heard and understand the answers from the faithful to the questions and thoughts that I will produce in this post...
Click to expand...

So I take it you know about the Aghori & Tantric Aghori's?
If so why you even need to ask the question in the post?

To make a post titled "What makes a thing divine or holy? What qualifies someone to be a spritual teacher?" if you know so much is absurd, it's clear you haven't learned that much.
The kinda vibe I get off this is someone who would go to Varanasi in India & be truly horrified by it all.


Om Namah Shivaya​


 
Well I can't really begin to answer but I would like to chime in with living unholier than now makes me miserable so maybe I should stop slandering what is holy.
 
Spirituality if this is what we call it is real I believe 100%. I know there will be a lot of fake people exploiting this for profit and such. I wasn't a believer 100% untill last night. There's been too many 'coincidences' here lately not only myself but my mum brother and sis-in-law have witnessed these happening. My dad passed away very recently. First a red butterfly kept on appearing 5 times same butterfly twice in the house and flew right up to my mum and me, then at the beach sitting on a number plate I spotted it in the distance like "its the same butterfly again!" and it flew up to my mum's face. Feathers too - there's been five of them - one I found in the bathroom stuck on the wall but didn't think anything of it even after the same butterfly re-appeared in the house for the second day in a row and was just sitting next to my dad's photo for ages. Then my brother who' really sceptical had one fall down and land on him the day of my dad's funeral, then the next day again the same thing happened when he was sitting in his livingroom. I still wasn't totally convinced but last night after a strange day of 'signs' (long story short there was butterfly's again and the same repeated numbers I've been seeing randomly for months) whilst at my recovery meetings I came home and when I went upstairs to bed, directly in the centre of my makeup mirror perfectly sitting there was a fucking white feather as if it had been placed there deliberately. No windows were open and nobody was there. I asked my family members if they were playing a practical joke or trying to make me feel better or something but I could tell they were just as surprised as me plus they couldn't have physically. I'm actually quite freaked out by it but at the same time comforted. I NEVER had even an interest in stuff like this never mind believed it but I can't not believe it now.
Oh yeah when I told my mum about the feather she said one fell on to her when she was hoovering yesterday too. Have checked and no feather pillows etc etc. But the way it was placed is confirmation for me personally.

Edit: when we had to let my Dad go in hospital I asked him to please give us a sign if you can to let us know your alright
 
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