What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[Biscuit]

^ Brilliant post Glubrahnum, thank you.

The more complex pre-precursors are going to leave all sorts of novel and very likely harmful contaminants behind in any PMK and/or MDMA made from such chemicals, unless appropriate purifications steps are undertaken each step of the way (which you can bet they will not be).

I do recall reading in one of the recent publications, whether it was an Australian one or European I cannot recall, that MDA is definitely now being routinely manufactured from t-BOC-MDA.

If anyone had access to the raw data (i.e. GC-MS spectra, IR-spectra, NMR etc) kept by forensic government laboratories tasked with analysing MDMA seizures, then the answer or answers to this issue would become apparent pretty quickly.

Whilst I agree with the post above about there likely being many differences which are at play here, given the significant and identifiable shift in subjective experiences with a majority of MDMA obtained these days and the significant and identifiable shift in the way (which includes the chemicals being utilised) in which MDMA is manufactured, both of which seem to be correlated to roughly the same point in time (which is not a coincidence), I firmly belief that there will be just one or two (and the two being related) critical differences or changes which are the dominant and overriding cause of the present situation.

 

[Kaden_Nite]

By the vague description of lackluster effects I've seen referred to as 'mongy', I would say that impurities; byproducts of synth which are probably not all that active on their own, is augmenting the MDMA experience in a similar way that minor alkaloids can set coca and opium apart from pure cocaine and morphine (not exactly the same thing but you catch my drift).

One major issue I have with this thread, is that it targets and greatly generalises, unfairly on modern MDMA.

For one, quality product is very much alive and well. Second, there are thousands of different batches - saying "today's MDMA" is like saying "today's socks" when there are thousands of sock manufacturers, all producing a different style and quality of sock.

I'm sure if you ask Le Junk about that, he'll tell you "socks these days ain't as hole-proof as they were back in 1988 when the socks were magic and you could walk across hot coals in your socks all night and still feel a nice afterglow the next day".

Final point, I was getting MDMA years ago that tested up as MDMA in the lab, but was subjectively different than other batches that tested up the same. I just assumed the same thing then that I assume now: Impurities.

I'm sure it was the same in the 80s and 90s too; I believe what people call mongy now was just 'smacky' back then.

This whole thing's been blown out of proportion. I mean, 2,3-methylenedioxymethamphetamine citrate polymers with uneven enantiomer ratios? Sure. Maybe.

Maybe safrole is being extracted from camphor laurel harvested in the rum jungle? Think about that. Isotopes and shit..

Anyhow, good day.

 

[NewTopic]

I completely under stand your point Kaden_Nite and that may be so!

Personally I started MDMA back in 2010 and I know what I felt then doesn't feel like that now, whether that's because I've done too much and all the rest is going to be debatable but ultimately the feeling has changed for me and many other people.

I went camping last year and took some white powder MDMA that had been triple washed / recrystallized by a very high up the chain source so all the impurities should have gone and to be fair it felt very clean.. but .. it wasn't strong surprisingly, I felt more relaxed then anything and I didn't get much Euphoria at all, even some shitty MDMA could have given me more of an experience.

So if your saying impurities are the cause of it being not good, then i'd have that as evidence to disagree but yet again, maybe i'm just fried and if a new person tried this, they would be blown away.. anyone's guess. I think the ideal situation is that new people test the MDMA we have now and see what there effects are like much like someone has already done on here and I for one will be testing this on one or two people in a few weeks time.

You can also say that more impurities are sometimes better, but without looking into it's chemical structure as well as isomers it's hard to say.

 

[Hilopsilo]

By the vague description of lackluster effects I've seen referred to as 'mongy', I would say that impurities; byproducts of synth which are probably not all that active on their own, is augmenting the MDMA experience in a similar way that minor alkaloids can set coca and opium apart from pure cocaine and morphine (not exactly the same thing but you catch my drift).

One major issue I have with this thread, is that it targets and greatly generalises, unfairly on modern MDMA.

For one, quality product is very much alive and well. Second, there are thousands of different batches - saying "today's MDMA" is like saying "today's socks" when there are thousands of sock manufacturers, all producing a different style and quality of sock.

I'm sure if you ask Le Junk about that, he'll tell you "socks these days ain't as hole-proof as they were back in 1988 when the socks were magic and you could walk across hot coals in your socks all night and still feel a nice afterglow the next day".

Final point, I was getting MDMA years ago that tested up as MDMA in the lab, but was subjectively different than other batches that tested up the same. I just assumed the same thing then that I assume now: Impurities.

I'm sure it was the same in the 80s and 90s too; I believe what people call mongy now was just 'smacky' back then.

This whole thing's been blown out of proportion. I mean, 2,3-methylenedioxymethamphetamine citrate polymers with uneven enantiomer ratios? Sure. Maybe.

Maybe safrole is being extracted from camphor laurel harvested in the rum jungle? Think about that. Isotopes and shit..

Anyhow, good day.

Exactly what I've been saying... It creates this in-group out-group dynamic in the conversation and screams burnt out ravers rather than people actually trying to go get to the bottom of something. But I feel that it has changed, at least in the last 10 pages maybe, but the title of the thread is kinda here to stay.

At this point, unless we can get more trustworthy info, I think it is also just some sort of impurity(ies). The crappy stuff I had analyzed had significant amounts of leftover precursor and relatively less actual MDMA in it than the sample I sent in that I found to be outstandingly good. Those two points I think show that the MDMA was bad craftsmanship, and its likely more was wrong with it than they were able to tell me. What about poorly made MDMA makes it bad even if the actual MDMA content is comparable to good stuff? Could be so many different things and there is really no way to know, think of all the substances that active at microgram doses.

Personally, I'm just avoiding anything that isn't colorless and scentless. All I can really do is avoid the characteristics of the bad stuff. I don't roll often so I've got a lot of time to track it down. I'll continue to test samples with the service downtown and post info here!

 

[indigoaura]

I kind of hate to post this, but will anyway, for the sake of Science.

I experimented again on Friday with the DW product I previously experimented with in early July.

My previous experience resulted in a more traditional MDMA feeling, although the product seemed a bit weak. I had no after effects, and had a pleasant afterglow for the entire next day.

I expected a similar reaction on Friday, but I ended up with a totally different result.

Going into the experience, I was having a bit of a stomach upset. I ate an early dinner around 5:30 pm. My stomach continued to feel upset after dinner. Leading up to this evening, I had a lot going on at work. Decent amount of stress. I considered changing plans. However, it was a concert I had looked forward too, so I decided to stick with my plan.

For most of the day Friday, I had been in a good mood and felt excited about the evening.

I took the same starting dose that I took previously: 130 mg @ 8:30.

In July, I had a come-up in under 30 minutes. I had a rushy come-up.

For this experience, I did not begin to come-up until 10:30 pm. Phenomenally off. Very mistimed for the concert. The come-up itself was slow and difficult to even identify at the concert. The show ended at 11:00 pm, and I went home with some friends.

Took a follow-up dose when I got home, maybe around midnight. Same as before.

Never really rolled that hard. Had a decent enough time. Laid around, listened to music. The music did not sound that great, and I did not feel that much like talking. No "confessional" quality to the experience.

I assumed that my dinner and upset stomach had messed with my absorption in some way. Since I had previously thought it was a weak product, I took a third dose (I know, I know...). Now, in July I took a third dose too. However, on that occasion, I took a third dose of the mehDMA because I did not have any more DW MDMA with me. The only difference in the 3rd dose was the supplier and abt 30 mg. (I thought this product was weaker, so I took more).

Nothing particularly magical happened all night. Sex was not mind-blowing.

At the end of the evening though, things went a bit off the rails. I got very nauseous and thought I would vomit. Had to lay down. Jaw clenching was annoying. Basically stayed horizontal for the rest of the night, and most of the next day. Today, I am having annoying stomach issues: dizziness, nausea, indigestion, burping, gas etc.

Psychologically, I feel fine. Don't feel depressed or anything. There was no afterglow, however, and this nausea nonsense is probably going to keep me home from work.

So...wtf happened?

Different from the MehDMA still. I never felt cold, for example. Never felt sleepy exactly. Mostly, felt like a weak roll that went wrong.

Best theories I can come up with are that whatever was going on with my stomach/dinner really changed the nature of the roll. Maybe nothing was hitting me fully, and then when I digested more food everything snuck up on me and hit me at once? Also, maybe I did not have the right mind-state going in to this with all the recent stress, and that made me less capable of a positive experience. Finally, maybe 3 months is not a long enough break for me in between rolls, and I need a 6 month or longer break. Maybe I can't handle a third dose anymore and I need to stick to two.

I'm not sure, and it is a bit confounding. This does seem to show that the stomach problems I have are not related to a particular batch as much as they are the result of other factors. Also, this does show the power of mind-state and food in shifting the positivity of an experience.

 

[indigoaura]

A few other comments...

I once gave some of the MehDMA to a virgin user. I asked how she liked it, and she shrugged. This was years ago, and I was not thinking as much about the product being different. I did not pay attention to eye dilation, for example. But, she stayed on her feet all night and seemed completely sober. I really don't think it is a "burnt out raver" issue. Although that could be argued for me, that is not true of everyone who is having these sub-par experiences.

There are all kinds of new, questionable synthesis routes. I don't know what I can post here. I have seen recipes for fuel based synthesis methods with aluminum and other methods that I have not even seen discussed here. There's just no telling how many variations there are, or how many short-cuts are being used.

As for the colorless/scentless vs. safrole smell conversation...my personal experience has been that the stuff that smells like safrole is better. However, I doubt that is any kind of rule that can be followed, as I am sure chemists are dumping "root beer flavoring" into their batches to make the smell if they want to.

I still think the best way forward is to find a lab we can all pay to start a project with. We need someone who will run a full, detailed, analysis. We need a database of results that can be cross referenced with personal experiences. Ecstasy data seems like a waste of time, as they just will not run the kind of analysis we need. I don't know who else is out there in other countries.

What about contacting researchers at universities? Is this type of research even legal currently?

 

[Glubrahnum]

I once gave some of the MehDMA to a virgin user. I asked how she liked it, and she shrugged. This was years ago, and I was not thinking as much about the product being different. I did not pay attention to eye dilation, for example. But, she stayed on her feet all night and seemed completely sober. I really don't think it is a "burnt out raver" issue.

Yes, virgin experiences are special and must be analyzed differently.
The pupils, trismus and hypertaxia should be observed closely. Pulse and temperature, too.

What about contacting researchers at universities? Is this type of research even legal currently?

It's not a problem of having access to people with expensive test equipment. It is a problem, that in most jurisdictions is it illegal for analysts to handle MDMA knowingly.

That's why, I repeatedly asked whether anyone knows a jurisdiction where one can set up shop and openly receive samples without risking being arrested, raided and having the equipment confiscated.

P.S.
It is still possible to test unknown samples in commercial labs anonymously by asking only for the raw spectrograms, ...without their interpretation....but it is a hassle for the submitter to protect his identity from eventual per/prosecution.

 

[Glubrahnum]

This whole thing's been blown out of proportion. I mean, 2,3-methylenedioxymethamphetamine citrate polymers with uneven enantiomer ratios? Sure. Maybe.

Where have you read about a detection of 2,3-methylenedioxymethamphetamine lately ?
...or its Citrate salt ?

 

[indigoaura]

Also, gotta say that anyone coming on with a one-off comment about how this is being blown out of proportion should have at least read the full 54 pages, links, and the associated thread.

 

[Kaden_Nite]

a one-off comment

Wrong

read the full 54 pages

I've been reading along with everyone else, as I'm certain that you have sir

Where have you read about a detection of 2,3-methylenedioxymethamphetamine lately ?
...or its Citrate salt ?

So we can cross 2,3-mdma citrate polymers off the list? Good to know

In all seriousness, this discussion regarding MDMA not only pre-dates this thread, but is virtually universal to drugs. Even with pharmaceuticals (not only psychoactive drugs either) people not only have their brand preferences, but often swear that two different brands of the same compound are different, or that one is more effective.

MDPV, 6-apb, MXE & 3-meo-pcp are a few recent RC/recreational drugs which have been the subject of this discussion. Modern acid and coke seem to be looked down on by a lot of retro hippies and disco freaks too.

One thing I've noticed: Sometimes, when the lab doesn't tell people what they want to hear, the lab is wrong.

.. Which is actually what brings me here. In the interest of HR, I might ask that people trust their friendly neighbourhood testing laboratory a little more than a thread where guesses are thrown around like punches in an Alabama steakhouse.

I like this thread, I do, but it's all theory until you have a lab and trials backing up what you're saying, and I can't really see funding coming easily when the basis of your research is figuring out why your eyes didn't dilate with last night's batch of disco sugar the same way they did when you double-dropped white Volvos at Burning Man that one time.

To the dude who paid to have his stuff tested: A legitimate thank you - and to everyone here who means well, which I believe is everyone. Even if I don't necessarily agree that there's anything wrong with today's MDMA.

 

[Hilopsilo]

Sorry to hear your experience didn't go well indigo, if I'm understanding correctly, you took the same MDMA but had a vastly different experience? While I do believe there is certainly something wrong with some of the MDMA going around, set & setting are still huge factors that are hard to control for. I have in the past had experiences with MDMA where I was stressed or not in a good mindset going in causing me to sort of fight the roll a bit, and it ends in a conflicted somewhat subdued experience. MY best times with the best MDMA have certainly correlated with the best set & settings. If it hadn't been for what I experienced personally (and what everyone I was with experienced, and have experienced since then), I'd probably still standby that all of this is simply set & setting. The difference was just too striking in such a short time frame.

This might sound counterintuitive, but a good portion of the times I have rolled have been at multi-day events where I roll twice. I think pretty much every time, I roll equally or stronger the second time. I chalk part of this up to being more comfortable in that environment and having already gone through the motions 1 or 2 nights before, I can better embrace the experience without any reluctancy to "feel the love".

On another subject, I went snooping around some vendor listings in search of "clear MDMA". It's incredibly illusive, there are thousands of listings and a handful are white let alone full on clear crystals. But, what I do notice is that listings for this description usually include a little more info than the usual "84% DUTCH MDMA SUPER FIRE CHAMPAGNE", and it usually involves distancing themselves from the rest of the MDMA listings. I found two listings I hadn't seen before and maybe what they mentioned is useful:

"Our product starts as snow white crystals, then we acetone wash and recrystallize it creating the cleanest, smoothest, whitest MDMA. Nothing even comes close" I guess this might suggest acetone washing MDMA might be useful in removing unwanted crap, and that the unwanted crap could impact the experience (which is why you want to remove it!). This does seem silly to me that some chemist would go through all the trouble of making MDMA and then not simply acetone wash it to produce at least a better looking product? Seems lazy.

"Best MDMA you can grab! White, as it should be. Synthesized, not cooked. Not from NL! No good MDMA since __ left the MDMA scene. This product is not __'s, but better" Now this stuff, the picture was exactly like what I had, decent sized clear crystals that you can literally see through like glass. Again, distancing themselves from the dutch MDMA scene (another listing I posted about called the rest "dutch dirt"). I have not a clue what they mean by "synthesized not cooked", interesting though.

Also, Kaden, you gotta give us a liiiiiiiittle more credit than that (i know you're just messing around but still). Myself and probably 20 others took 100mg of one batch of MDMA, and not even 48 hours later took 100mg of another batch and the difference was night and day. I got both samples analyzed and would you look at that, the stuff we had the first night had a lower MDMA % and significant amounts of precursor leftover (but both reagent tests and even infrared spectrometers told me both were perfectly pure MDMA!). And not only difference in strength, but overall subjective effects were different. Not saying I agree with, or have the knowledge to definitively agree with, any of the theories being thrown around here, but I think there is certainly differences in batches of MDMA beyond "yep thats MDMA".

And to be fair, coke was probably better when the disco freaks had it. And I've met my fair share of wooks who go on about "family fluff" and different grades of LSD crystal lol.

 

[NewTopic]

At the end of the evening though, things went a bit off the rails. I got very nauseous and thought I would vomit. Had to lay down. Jaw clenching was annoying. Basically stayed horizontal for the rest of the night, and most of the next day. Today, I am having annoying stomach issues: dizziness, nausea, indigestion, burping, gas etc.

Psychologically, I feel fine. Don't feel depressed or anything. There was no afterglow, however, and this nausea nonsense is probably going to keep me home from work.

You would not believe how much this relates to myself.
After years of MDMA, last year I started to get these effects after taking MDMA.. not on the come up.. not while on the roll but on the comedown these would start to be apparent lasting well into the next day or two.

I never felt like this before, but honestly i'm stopping because of this.. I usually vomit, feel absolutely sick for 1-2 days, glued to bed, fever, dizzy and no apatite. Just like you though, I don't feel depressed or anything, no afterglow it's just the physical sickness.

Normally I take 200-250mg straight up and have handled this fine in the past, dosing up another 100-300mg in redose over a night (yes silly). But now even taking 200mg makes this happen so next time which is my last time, i'll be spreading the doses out like 100mg at a time to see if any effects.

I just think that is weird you got these effects... and hey maybe it's unrelated still.. I don't know many if any people who experience these symptoms after.

 

[NewTopic]

On another subject, I went snooping around some vendor listings in search of "clear MDMA". It's incredibly illusive, there are thousands of listings and a handful are white let alone full on clear crystals. But, what I do notice is that listings for this description usually include a little more info than the usual "84% DUTCH MDMA SUPER FIRE CHAMPAGNE", and it usually involves distancing themselves from the rest of the MDMA listings. I found two listings I hadn't seen before and maybe what they mentioned is useful:

"Our product starts as snow white crystals, then we acetone wash and recrystallize it creating the cleanest, smoothest, whitest MDMA. Nothing even comes close" I guess this might suggest acetone washing MDMA might be useful in removing unwanted crap, and that the unwanted crap could impact the experience (which is why you want to remove it!). This does seem silly to me that some chemist would go through all the trouble of making MDMA and then not simply acetone wash it to produce at least a better looking product? Seems lazy.

"Best MDMA you can grab! White, as it should be. Synthesized, not cooked. Not from NL! No good MDMA since __ left the MDMA scene. This product is not __'s, but better" Now this stuff, the picture was exactly like what I had, decent sized clear crystals that you can literally see through like glass. Again, distancing themselves from the dutch MDMA scene (another listing I posted about called the rest "dutch dirt"). I have not a clue what they mean by "synthesized not cooked", interesting though.

I have also seen a few listings with things like this.
I firmly believe that cooks/chemists outside of NL really do not like the product coming from there and this has been said for many years now. Whether they know something we don't or maybe the quality is just poor compared. I'd have to say most of NL stuff seems for mass production, rather then meeting a quality expectation.

I mean the 'cook' part sounds like a one pot reaction vessel, rather then a synthesis that involves multiple reactions and chemistry.
From what I have heard as well, pure MDMA doesn't form large boulder rocks like you see the dutch create, I believe grain size is generally high quality.

 

[indigoaura]

NewTopic: My partner and I both have these annoying, "sick" effects from the MehDMA. Consistently. Vitamin C reduces these effects a lot. If you take about 1500 mg vitamin C before you roll, and then another 1000 when you re-dose, and another 1500 before you go to bed, you can largely avoid these side effects.

I did not do my usual vitamin C protocol because I was not taking the MehDMA, and I had no issues with sickness with this product when I took it in July.

HOWEVER last night, I was thinking and I realized that there was a difference. I used different capsules. And, the more I started thinking about it, I realized that the MehDMA has been packaged in one type of capsule (which I assume is gelatin), but the better MDMA was in vegetarian cellulose capsules. On Friday, I used gelatin capsules for the better MDMA. I did a bit of searching and read that some people react to gelatin with indigestion, upset stomach, belching, and nausea.

I checked all my typical vitamins, and they are all in cellulose capsules.

So, now I am wondering if I am one of those people who does not digest gelatin right, and if this is having an effect on how MDMA is absorbed, where the capsule breaks down, etc. Maybe the stomach upset is partially due to the gelatin.

This will be easy enough to test at a later date. But, you may want to re-pack your MDMA in cellulose capsules and see if that helps.

 

[psy997]

Good thinking, indigoaura. I'm not opposed to even small things such as capsule type having an effect on this phenomena.

 

[NewTopic]

But, you may want to re-pack your MDMA in cellulose capsules and see if that helps.

That's a really interesting point and you could be right about how different packaging may cause it to be absorbed differently.

I've only really started getting the effects since I started using pills, I used to do the crystal in caps all the time (i'll check what sort they are) but then I decided to do something different so I've been taking usually one dutch pill followed by crystal redoses. The pill just seems to hit a lot harder and there has been talk about pills being coated in something to help it get further into the digestion system ?

I wonder if this could be the case and also relating to different capsule breakdown rates, this might effect serotonin receptors to somewhat be overwelmed or just make a nausea feeling more pronounced. Worth a look into for sure as you don't really think about that kind of thing you just think it hits the same way but it doesn't.

For instance, when I snort MDMA without eating it .. I get absolutely no Euphoria what so ever and I feel really strange, heart rate up.. no thoughts.. just kinda empty. Most of the Serotonin is in the gut so maybe that's why, but then people put it up there ass and have a great time. Confused.

 

[indigoaura]

So, this is interesting: https://energycontrol-international.org/nausea-after-mdma/

If there are 5.HT receptors in the stomach that contribute to that initial rush/nausea of a come-up, then it seems logical to conclude that these same receptors may have an effect on the experience in other ways.

If, for whatever reason, these stomach receptors are not activated, then perhaps that changes the nature of the experience.

I have also been reading that some people lack the right enzymes to break down gelatin. I also read that gelatin can react with some substances inside a capsule. I am trying to find more specific, scientific articles about these issues.

I wonder if Vitamin C helps me because the acidity of the vitamin C aids in the break-down of the gelatin.

 

[indigoaura]

Newtopic: Interestingly, I have had the opposite experience as you. I never had the "sick" side effect until I began using capsules instead of pills. But, the pills I took were from 2000-2005 and did not have any coating on them. They would often crumble, and had a noticeable sassafras smell.

I am honestly sort of wondering what would happen with an anal administration now. Never did that with X, only tried it once with 2CC. Was not a fan of the lingering burn...lol. However, I might be willing to give it another try just to add some more info to the conversation.

 

[indigoaura]

Is this relevant?

Tolerance of the capsule shell toward fill composition
Low molecular weight PEGs in the fill formulation (00) can diffuse into the gelatin shell and act as plasticizer which limits their use. Hard gelatin capsules are less compatible with PEG of molecular weight <4000 as they decreases the moisture from the capsule shell and make it brittle. They are generally compatible with PEG of molecular weight >4000.[4,5]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5830853/

 

[psy997]

Re: serotonin receptors. If I remember correctly, there are more serotonin receptors in the gut than there are in the brain. Receptor activity in the stomach and gut affecting the experience is a definite possibility IMO.

Re: snorting. I've actually had amazing experiences the few times I've snorted MDMA. It's been good product every time, and I haven't noticed a pronounced difference in effects, especially degradation of empathy/ecstacy, between snorting and oral administration when I've done both with the same batch.

Re: Vitamin C, Vit C is actually an amazingly potent and powerful compound for the human body. It's probably the number one supplement I would recommend to anyone, for anything. I take 2-3g a day. It's an effective painkiller, anti-oxidant, anti-inflammatory agent, etc. etc. It could be directly having an effect on the gelatin or, could be diminishing negative effects simply because it's so good for the bodies recovery.