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What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

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Biscuit said:
Fair enough however this wasn't clear to me from what you were saying. I certainly won't argue with the chemistry above however I maintain it isn't the best analogy in the circumstances. Obviously, that is my opinion and you are free to disagree. Other BL's may have understood what you were saying, although I suspect most wouldn't have.
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SO if PMK is reacted with glycidic acid to form an ester -- then the glycidate (carboxylate) is removed -- How is the PMK Any different than it was when it was initially used to create the PMK-gly ??

Answer -- It isn't --- it is chemically identical to PMK.

And you can't use PMK-gly in the reaction to create the MDMA freebase, it must be converted back to PMK. (which I believe is a pretty straightforward decarboxylation by aqueous acid hydrolysis)

It should be Darzens condensation that is used to create the glycidic ester of PMK (ketone)
 
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SO if PMK is reacted with glycidic acid to form an ester -- then the glycidate (carboxylate) is removed -- How is the PMK Any different than it was when it was initially used to create the PMK-gly ??
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^ Which is why the analogy didn't make sense.

Maybe it does go PMK --> PMK-gly --> PMK but from a synthesis perspective it definitely doesn't go MDMA freebase --> MDMA-HCl --> MDMA freebase. That was my point.

The rest of what you have said, most of which I don't disagree with and the rest of it I just don't think we can be definitively sure, has been discussed repeatedly earlier in this thread and in others.
 
So we are still no closer by the sounds of things until someone dusts off their Chemistry set...
 
OP claims to have been getting the exact same magical stuff since 1988 (Because, as he casually informs the internet, he knows the guy who makes it of course!). He can take 100-500mg of this magical 1988 MDMA and spend the night having empathogen-induced, out-of-this-world sex before being dropped off like a feather and drifting into a good night's sleep. He'll wake up the next day with an urge to chat and socialise and drive around listening to music and feeling the love before retiring for the evening by logging into Bluelight to complain about the quality of today's MDMA.

Makes perfect sense right? Of course it does!=D

All this talk of seretonin depletion? Rubbish! There's no loss of magic when the 1988 MDMA that your friend makes is fucking magic!
And what's with all the scientific mumbo-jumbo that this Shulgin character wrote about the prevalence of tiredness and lethargy the next day? I don't know what that guy was taking, but it sure wasn't Le Junk's 1988 magical MDMA - And don't even get me started on the lies and deceptive myths about 'comedowns' that were spread in those awful anti-drug propaganda movies of the 1990s like Human Traffic.

Some more brilliant advice I've found in this thread is that if you were taking MDMA in the 90s, it was probably MDEA! You can tell the difference because MDEA is more 'speedy'.. and let's not forget that if your GCMS-tested batch of modern European MDMA doesen't smell like 'aniseed' then that's a surefire sign that there's something wrong with it.

Still have trouble accepting that there's something wrong with modern MDMA? Well, Le Junk -the guy with the magical 1988 MDMA- has undeniable proof sitting right in front of him! Not only that but they've been lab tested!.. According to Le Junk.. By the same lab that was wrong about everything else, according to Le Junk.. But not wrong about the magical stuff that he had tested.. Apparently.

...

How much more proof do you people need that it was so much better doing ecstasy back in the day before all of this 'lab testing' and 'information'? All these people with their understanding of chemistry and pharmacology and these 'internet websites' with their 'facts' and their 'data'... fucking everything up..
 
Brenner said:
So we are still no closer by the sounds of things until someone dusts off their Chemistry set...
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No -- I think some people are closer -- because they realize that PMK-glycidate is not actually a precursor in the sense of safrole or isosafrole being a precursor.

PMK-glycidate is made from PMK (MDP2P) through a chemical process called Darzen's condensation -- creating the carboxylic ester of PMK. (this is the complicated part)

Conversion BACK to PMK is easily accomplished by decarboxylation through hydrolysis in aqueous acid -- not complicated.

I've thrown out some theories (GCMS conflation and different salts) that could account for the reports

and they are almost as unlikely as the proposed fantasy. some crazy synth using PMK-glycidate (as if an actual synthesis that doesn't include conversion back to MDP2P as a first step from PMK-gly would work) --

200 mg of r-MDMA doesn't even get to a +1 (hydroxycut will give you a +1)

This meme of "different precursor = different MDMA" is just straight up BULLSHIT.
 
Personally I fully agree with Le Junk.

I'm 46 and i've be doing MDMA since the mid 90s. My normal use was about 10-12 times a year until around 2010, 3-5 times a year after that.
We would take about 150mg of powder (or whatever amount was in a pill) and then we'd top-up by the same amount.

The effects and the next day where exactly as Le Junk describe it. You'd actually wake up the next day with a nice afterglow, perfect for going out in nature or chilling somewhere cosy. It was almost as good as the night before.
Yes, seretonin depletion does happen, but that was a lot more intense 2 days after and not an issue at all on the next day.

Last time i had that kind of MDMA was in 2008.
Since then all my rolls are missing the fine sweat on the come up, the empathy and love, the touch feeling, the extreme music appreciation and the amazingly good sleep after.
Don't get me wrong, it still feels nice or even really good sometimes, but its nothing like back then.

Yes, it might be easy to write off my anecdote off as "an old man talking about the good old days" or that "i lost the magic", and unfortunately i don't have any powder or pills from 10 years ago to compare. And i understand chemistry well enough to know that MDMA is MDMA.

Still, all my friends share the same opinion and we all agree on when it was last time we had good MDMA.


Really interesting thread!
 
shugena,

Discussing chemistry is verboten at bluelight, but if you're going to do it anyway, could you at least post structures? The following link will help.

opsin.ch.cam.ac.uk

A picture is worth a thousand words. But as far as a molecule kekule structure being the be all end all, I'd say that is bullshit, to borrow the term you used.

Every batch of whatever drug has its own distinct personality. If this fact upsets your chemical worldview, then so be it. No need to curse. :/
 
Dresden said:
shugena,

Discussing chemistry is verboten at bluelight, but if you're going to do it anyway, could you at least post structures? The following link will help.

opsin.ch.cam.ac.uk

A picture is worth a thousand words. But as far as a molecule kekule structure being the be all end all, I'd say that is bullshit, to borrow the term you used.

Every batch of whatever drug has its own distinct personality. If this fact upsets your chemical worldview, then so be it. No need to curse. :/
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Actually, there is no rule in this forum or the USER's Agreement that prohibits discussing chemistry.

There is an informal ban on posting complete synthesis steps, but referencing named chemical processes is not forbidden.
 
I've looked at my old "raver" day photos from the late 90s/early 2000s and everyone had the most incredible saucer sized pupils and ecstatic grins on their gobs. When you had a couple of decent pills, your jaw or lip would shake uncontrollably and there was a frequent need for lower back massages. Such effects were common to most people who consumed the drug, whether male or female, old or young, large or small; these physical effects are also far more consistent and objective than trying to gauge how euphoric and empathetic a particular pill might be on any given night.

I was privy to lab test results of many of the pills which were around at this time, and believe me we consumed countless of them, and most of the pills which produced these effects were dosed at 90mg-120mg of MDMA - that is MDMA only or MDMA with caffeine; not MDEA, not MDMA with MDA, or anything else for that matter.

The change to 200-250mg dosages of MDMA now being seen as routine, is a massive change. And despite this, many of these pills consistently fail to produce the same physical effects in people today when compared to those being clearly experienced by those in the old raver photos - "off chops" as opposed to "munted". And I am not talking about comparing the effects in people who have been at it for 15 years but people who are only just starting out. The pills I am talking about today are still good and still get people (especially new users) completely trashed, but there is something clearly not the same with certain pills. It is likewise accepted that there is of course many pills and many different supplies of MDMA crystal and powder which is as mind blowing as the drug has ever been, but this does seem to be in the minority.
 
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I have been following this thread for a while now. Up until a year or two ago I was firmly in the 'MDMA is MDMA' camp and blamed my lacking experiences on tolerance, setting, novelty of the drug, etc. Reason being that I abused the hell out of this drug over the years

But in the past two years I've had two run-ins with two different pills that produced such a profoundly different effecst from what I was used to the past few years that I am now seriously unsure as to what to believe anymore. I experienced it myself and can't deny that it almost felt like a different drug altogether, the difference was HUGE, as I remember MDMA being 10 years ago. But rationality tells me there must be something else other than chemical differences that causes this. So I honestly don't know anymore =D I do find this an extremely interesting discussion though, certainly because we seem to have a few members with enough knowledge of chemistry to form hypotheses
 
I started questioning mdma about 6 years ago . Something changed and I think the higher doses are proof of this . Why would criminals give us higher doses for a much cheaper price ?

I will continue to watch bluelight in hopes that mystery will be solved .
 
oldskoolroller said:
Why would criminals give us higher doses for a much cheaper price ?
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It is more available today than it ever was before -> more visible sellers -> lowering price due to competition -> making pills stronger because a lot of people think "more is better" :\
 
ferax said:
Personally I fully agree with Le Junk.

I'm 46 and i've be doing MDMA since the mid 90s. My normal use was about 10-12 times a year until around 2010, 3-5 times a year after that.
We would take about 150mg of powder (or whatever amount was in a pill) and then we'd top-up by the same amount.

The effects and the next day where exactly as Le Junk describe it. You'd actually wake up the next day with a nice afterglow, perfect for going out in nature or chilling somewhere cosy. It was almost as good as the night before.
Yes, seretonin depletion does happen, but that was a lot more intense 2 days after and not an issue at all on the next day.

Last time i had that kind of MDMA was in 2008.
Since then all my rolls are missing the fine sweat on the come up, the empathy and love, the touch feeling, the extreme music appreciation and the amazingly good sleep after.
Don't get me wrong, it still feels nice or even really good sometimes, but its nothing like back then.

Yes, it might be easy to write off my anecdote off as "an old man talking about the good old days" or that "i lost the magic", and unfortunately i don't have any powder or pills from 10 years ago to compare. And i understand chemistry well enough to know that MDMA is MDMA.

Still, all my friends share the same opinion and we all agree on when it was last time we had good MDMA.


Really interesting thread!
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Very intersting thread and post. I´m also 46 and contrary to you, I´ve been doing MDMA since December 2014, so I´m a new user compared to you. I also take the same amount as you, 150/200 first dose and then 100 more an hour or so later. The first times I took the love feeling was much stronger than it is today. I don´t know if it´s tolerance and different MDMA I´m taking, but sure the first time the love and emphaty were much stronger than today. It still feels wonderful, music is still divine and general pleasure is amazing, but the love feeling is not the same anymore.

Ferax, during all those years taking MDMA, did you felt your health suffer from it, like lost memory or any kind of depression tendence growing up?
 
This report from a few months ago clearly and irrefutably, sums up the changes in the MDMA content of pills over the years:

http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/system/files/publications/2473/TD0116348ENN.pdf

Pages 5 to 8 inclusive are the relevant pages. The table on page 8 says it all. It is undeniable. The differences are massive. But the pills with so much more are definitely not better and most would say generally worse. Something is going on, no question, but I accept finding the reason or reasons for this are proving very difficult.
 
lifeisbeautiful said:
Very intersting thread and post. I´m also 46 and contrary to you, I´ve been doing MDMA since December 2014, so I´m a new user compared to you. I also take the same amount as you, 150/200 first dose and then 100 more an hour or so later. The first times I took the love feeling was much stronger than it is today. I don´t know if it´s tolerance and different MDMA I´m taking, but sure the first time the love and emphaty were much stronger than today. It still feels wonderful, music is still divine and general pleasure is amazing, but the love feeling is not the same anymore.

Ferax, during all those years taking MDMA, did you felt your health suffer from it, like lost memory or any kind of depression tendence growing up?
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I know that 10 or 12 times a year sounds a lot but its really not that many, especially if you take into account that most of them were during the summer at festivals and parties, in a very close succession. After September my use dropped a lot, perhaps 3-4 times until the next summer.

That was 10 years ago. Today i'll do MDMA once or twice at the festival ( yeah, sadly its not festivals any more :( )
Add the occasional home party with friends, plus a couple of nights just me and my gf and there you have 5 times year.

I don't really consider myself a heavy user of MDMA or any other substance, except maybe weed.
Tolerance is never a problem except at the festivals which is to be expected. Even then its a much bigger issue with psychedelics than MDMA.

I've never had a health issue due to MDMA or any other substance as i try to moderate my use. I even survived legal mephedrone just fine ;)
My memory is not 100% what it used to be, but its not far off. I'd say its on a par with most people my age. And I've never suffered from depression or anything like that.


Obviously the first times you do MDMA are extraordinary and memorable! For most people its their best times ever.

For me that was not the case.
During the early years you would drop a Cherry or a Dove or a Euro or a Mitsubishi and you were in for the time of you life! Then the pills got replaced by MDMA powder which was also amazing for a few years until 2008.
Since then we've been chasing the old MDMA but never found any. Which is really weird as today anyone can get top quality dutch powder and pills which should have been a lot better than the old ones, but actually feel like a totally different substance.


lifeisbeautiful, do you get a really fine sweat on the comeup that feels amazing when you take your shirt off? That was always the sign of a good roll and the one thing that i miss the most.

Perhaps later i will put together a list of MDMA effects that i miss the most, just to compare with the others here.
 
ferax said:
I know that 10 or 12 times a year sounds a lot but its really not that many, especially if you take into account that most of them were during the summer at festivals and parties, in a very close succession. After September my use dropped a lot, perhaps 3-4 times until the next summer.

That was 10 years ago. Today i'll do MDMA once or twice at the festival ( yeah, sadly its not festivals any more :( )
Add the occasional home party with friends, plus a couple of nights just me and my gf and there you have 5 times year.

I don't really consider myself a heavy user of MDMA or any other substance, except maybe weed.
Tolerance is never a problem except at the festivals which is to be expected. Even then its a much bigger issue with psychedelics than MDMA.

I've never had a health issue due to MDMA or any other substance as i try to moderate my use. I even survived legal mephedrone just fine ;)
My memory is not 100% what it used to be, but its not far off. I'd say its on a par with most people my age. And I've never suffered from depression or anything like that.


Obviously the first times you do MDMA are extraordinary and memorable! For most people its their best times ever.

For me that was not the case.
During the early years you would drop a Cherry or a Dove or a Euro or a Mitsubishi and you were in for the time of you life! Then the pills got replaced by MDMA powder which was also amazing for a few years until 2008.
Since then we've been chasing the old MDMA but never found any. Which is really weird as today anyone can get top quality dutch powder and pills which should have been a lot better than the old ones, but actually feel like a totally different substance.


lifeisbeautiful, do you get a really fine sweat on the comeup that feels amazing when you take your shirt off? That was always the sign of a good roll and the one thing that i miss the most.

Perhaps later i will put together a list of MDMA effects that i miss the most, just to compare with the others here.
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Thanks for answering Ferax. Indeed you´re not a heavy user, actually you seem to be very responsable with use of this drug. In our age the maturity and resposability in life play a roll here, we just can´t loose our minds for this stuff.

I´m missing the love feeling but I can´t tell if it´s from different MDMA (ever since 12/2014 I always took MDMA crystals) or tolerance building as I stated before. Contrary to you, I never had the chance to take MDMA from 2000/2008, but would love too in order to feel the difference you are stating.

Looking forward to read your post about the MD missing effects. Stay safe.
 
ferax said:
lifeisbeautiful, do you get a really fine sweat on the comeup that feels amazing when you take your shirt off? That was always the sign of a good roll and the one thing that i miss the most.
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Forgot to answer your question. Well, I don´t feel a sweat, on the come up I feel a wave of energy that makes me feel like I´m floating, this is something I always felt ever since the beginning.
 
I think something is wrong with this new way of making MDMA. I don't know what or claim to know what or particularly care why either though.
 
could it be that those people that don't think that mdma is mdma have gotten some tolerance due to other rc (mephedrone, methylone, ...) use? those substances were widely available and popular exactly at the time when you say that the mdma "changed"...
 
Possibly. I did my fair share of mephedrone and methylone, but the new pills are crunchier, less bitter, smell different, and react to testing kits slightly differently than the old ones did. They don't dilate my pupils either.

Out of all those observations, the most damning are the less bitter taste ("if it's not bitter, don't bother") and the lack of mydriasis, I would say.

To be fair, they still pretty much react the same to the Marquis, are still slightly bitter (nowhere nearly as nasty tasting as they should be though) and give an amphetamine like feeling like MDMA should.

I would like to know what, if any, trace impurities may be present that didn't used to show up or the other way around.
 
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