What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[Jabberwocky]

any O lone pair of pmk/glycidate derived material....donating into an empty metal d orbital during the reduction step of the reductive amination,

What do you think must be cleaved from the MDP2P to make MDMA?? the oxygen !! -- it gets replaced with a methyl group

And you are worried about a possible oxygen pair from leftover glycidic acid ???really

 

[Jabberwocky]

I'm talking about the reductive amination step.....delivery of hydride to the imminium. lots of Rh and Ir catalysts than can accept LP electrons, please name every Rh Ir known in the scientific literature and all other known reductive ammination catalysts and please describe why they cannot accept LP electrons from oxygen.

What do you think must be cleaved from the MDP2P to make MDMA?? the oxygen !! -- it gets replaced with a methyl group

And you are worried about a possible oxygen pair from leftover glycidic acid ???really

Not to mention there is a lot of hydrogen hanging out to form water with that extra oxygen

 

[Jabberwocky]

I'm talking about the reductive amination step.....delivery of hydride to the imminium. lots of Rh and Ir catalysts than can accept LP electrons, please name every Rh Ir known in the scientific literature and all other known reductive ammination catalysts and please describe why they cannot accept LP electrons from oxygen.

Yeah, and the only way to use Rh to create a chiral catalyst is by using a special organo-phosphorus napthalene compound -- so you propose somehow phosphorus has been added and managed to forma super complex compound called BINAP -- really??

Crabtree's catalyst (Ir) does not tolerate amines

And it becomes irreversibly deactivated after 10 minutes -- Ir isn't cheap either

Aluminum and mercury however, are quite inexpensive.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

im done with you for real this time man....good luck with that type of attitude doing chemistry...I'm sure you'll get really far and make tons of friends

 

[Jabberwocky]

im done with you for real this time man....good luck with that type of attitude doing chemistry...I'm sure you'll get really far and make tons of friends

FYI -- in industry -- the real world -- applied chemistry

If you can't show all the compounds and steps in a proposed synthesis either using simulations or based on known proven reactions -- your idea won't go anywhere.

 

[Biscuit]

Perhaps some clarity said it before saying it again. The OP and subsequent posters don't say all MDMA is now different. We say some or at least the majority of pressed pills that are theoretically European origin are off.

GCMS lets get things straight. It's not foolproof. It only searches for what is in the data bank not what maybe in the pill / powder.

What we are all trying to work out is why?

Price has dropped FACT
Dosages have gone through the stratosphere FACT
Tests show MDMA by reagent and GCMS
Some refuse the racemic argument, the only theory

Amen to this. This is all that this thread was meant to be about - discussion of possible theories as to the cause of what is an undeniable phenomenon being routinely encountered in SOME of the MEGA dosed pills that have flooded the worldwide market over the past few years.

I have seen many recent lab analysis results performed by a government laboratory for pills seized in Australia and they have invariably contained MDMA only. Where they haven't, the labs have been able to report some of the more novel substances, such as from the APB and ADPB series and various substituted cathinones.

Whilst most of these pills haven't included the mega dosed ones, as they are rarely the subject of large seizures in Australia, the laboratory recently reported on one of these pills (very common in Europe late last year) and confirmed that it contained MDMA only, was of high purity and of a ~ 200mg dose. For reasons of confidentiality and because revealing too much information is unnecessary for the point which I am making, I won't say which one. Anyone who cares will just have to trust my honesty and the accuracy of my source, but hopefully my regular contributions to this site for over 16 and a half years will suffice.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Amen to this. This is all that this thread was meant to be about - discussion of possible theories as to the cause of what is an undeniable phenomenon being routinely encountered in SOME of the MEGA dosed pills that have flooded the worldwide market over the past few years.

It was presented as most or all of the new MDMA.

Regardless. If it is a small percentage, and you stipulate it is an isomer issue, then the most logical and likely instigator is r-MDA.

MDP2P is reacted with r- benzylmethylamine -- which gives an R,R intermediate -- a few reductions gets you to isomeric r-MDA.

If r-MDA is used as the starting point for the PIHKAL synthesis, you will end up with r-MDMA.


No super secret catalysts, no "bigfoot" or"ufo" type intermediate substrates needed.


Somebody got a hold of a batch of the r-MDA (the isomer of MDA you want) and used it as the start for MDMA -- no MDP2P needed. (another point that makes this more likely than some fanciful glycidic impurity)

They realized it was ass, so they mix it with racemic MDMA.

MDA (and MDMA) -- are extremely stable if stored away from moisture, extreme heat, and extreme UV. MDA will last for decades. Somebody likely happened upon a cache left over from whenever.


_____________________________

Of note re: r-isomer MDMA -- even at 200mg+ there is no mydriasis (pupillary dilation) nor jaw clenching

'Quasar' Research Monograph 22.
Absolute Configuration and Psychotomimetic Activity.
G.M.Anderson III, Gisela Braun, Ulrich Braun, David E. Nichols, and Alexander T. Shulgin.

 

[Biscuit]

Of note re: r-isomer MDMA -- even at 200mg+ there is no mydriasis (pupillary dilation) nor jaw clenching

'Quasar' Research Monograph 22.
Absolute Configuration and Psychotomimetic Activity.
G.M.Anderson III, Gisela Braun, Ulrich Braun, David E. Nichols, and Alexander T. Shulgin

Precisely what I have found. I never said it was all of them and many may be non-racemic but not of a single isomer. Maybe the entire theory is complete bunkum. What we need is a lab willing to do the isomer ratio tests on a handful of pills. it can be done and anyone with sufficient connection to any of these places could request it.

 

[Dresden]

Anyone with a very inexpensive hand held manual polarimeter could do it. But it is my ubderstanding that the new MDMA is made from PMK aka MDP2P and that that means the resulting MDMA is 50:50 R:S unless and until chiral separation is performed. Why would its manufacturers go through such a difficult step only to end up with an inferior product? My own experience taking the safole versus the glycidate derived MDMA and the fact that in the old days good pills brought many times the price of the new stuff tells me something, perhaps some kind of impurity (or lack thereof), is seriously amiss with the MDMA in these new high dose pills.

 

[Dresden]

Plus, these new pills are speedy, which is usually attributed to the effects S, not R, MDMA.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Precisely what I have found. I never said it was all of them and many may be non-racemic but not of a single isomer. Maybe the entire theory is complete bunkum. What we need is a lab willing to do the isomer ratio tests on a handful of pills. it can be done and anyone with sufficient connection to any of these places could request it.

Have you considered it could be a positional/skeletal/functional isomer of MDMA and or a closely related substance that has a parent mass close enough to MDMA to fall where the MDMA peak would be?

2,3 MDMA
or

6-methyl-MDA --

6-Methyl-MDA has IC₅₀ values of 783nM, 28,300nM, and 4,602nM for inhibiting the reuptake of serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine in rat synaptosomes
Thus, while several-fold less potent than its analogues 2-methyl-MDA and 5-methyl-MDA, and approximately half as potent as MDA, 6-methyl-MDA is still significantly active,^[1] and appropriate doses may be similar to or somewhat higher than those of MDMA."

Without ion-mobility mass spectrometry or other specialized MS -- you cannot necessarily distinguish between structural/skeletal/or functional isomers, especially if they exit the GC column at near the same time as MDMA is expected to

 

[consumer]

shugenja. Are you always so aggressive to others and so "blinkered"in your thinking. You have turned a discussion into a slanging match. Have you ever taken mdma as it obviously has not had any impact on your personality. I am done with this thread. Your energy is toxic.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

We just used to blame the criminals and 'the market' but you know what? I reckon the more chemists (literally) there became involved, the less fun MDMA became.

Yes, fun shugenja. Things used to be fun. A concept I'm not entirely sure you are conversant with.

 

[Jabberwocky]

We just used to blame the criminals and 'the market' but you know what? I reckon the more chemists (literally) there became involved, the less fun MDMA became.

Yes, fun shugenja. Things used to be fun. A concept I'm not entirely sure you are conversant with.

Things are still plenty fun.

But this thread isn't about fun.

It's about a theory, based on chemistry -- science and one of the main principles in science is challenging theories until they hold up under scrutiny, or they fall apart


A bunch of people went and got their feelings hurt -- boo fucking hoo


I haven't heard a peep regarding structural isomers --

Structural isomers have the exact same mass, and the exact same building blocks -- meaning they may (some absolutely do) look like the same parent and child compounds to a mass spectrometer. (the MS part of GCMS)

Some elute from the column of a Gas Chromatograph at the same time -- meaning the GC portion of GCMS sees them as the same thing.

This is a known issue with certain compounds and GCMS.

6-Methyl-MDA is a structural isomer of 3,4 MDMA -- as is 2,3 MDMA

6-Methyl MDA has an effects profile that matches the 'new MDMA'

 

[Le Junk]

Of note re: r-isomer MDMA -- even at 200mg+ there is no mydriasis (pupillary dilation) nor jaw clenching

'Quasar' Research Monograph 22.
Absolute Configuration and Psychotomimetic Activity.
G.M.Anderson III, Gisela Braun, Ulrich Braun, David E. Nichols, and Alexander T. Shulgin.

I should have prolly mentioned before, with this new type of MDMA, pupil dialation is minimal if at all. A huge side effect I neglected to mention. With my old school white crystalline powder, my pupils are dilated to the very edge.

 

[Dracarys]

To all the people who're tired of taking XTC, never knowing exactly what is in their pills, often dissapointed with the poor quality of what's available...i would realy recommend trying pure mescaline for a change. Mescaline is the best of all the phenethylamines IMO. It basically has the hallucinogen effects of LSD, paired with the empathogenic effects of realy good quality MDMA. I would say it's better even than both. Try it. You'll love it.

 

[Dresden]

The new MDMA is almost certainly not 2,3-MDA or 5-methyl-MDA. Structural isomers are easily differentiated from each other by GC/MS. And I read an interview in Mixmag where they quoted someone familiar with the new process confirming the new MDMA is made from the glycidate precursor.

 

[Jabberwocky]

The new MDMA is almost certainly not 2,3-MDA or 5-methyl-MDA. Structural isomers are easily differentiated from each other by GC/MS. And I read an interview in Mixmag where they quoted someone familiar with the new process confirming the new MDMA is made from the glycidate precursor.

Not always --

There are many examples of structural (gemetric) isomers where the differences fall within the analytical noise and cannot be distinguished.

Ion-mobility, and or a more differentiating spectroscopy -- like the IR identified below is needed.


"For the identification of structural isomers, MS only provides information consistent with isomer class identification, proving to be inconclusive for the identification of individual isomers."

http://www.labmanager.com/how-it-wo...guish-structural-isomers?fw1pk=2#.V37YC7grKUk

 

[Jabberwocky]

I should have prolly mentioned before, with this new type of MDMA, pupil dialation is minimal if at all. A huge side effect I neglected to mention. With my old school white crystalline powder, my pupils are dilated to the very edge.

Except r-MDMA won't make you still high after 2 days -- as you so eloquently reproted.

 

[oldskoolroller]

To all the people who're tired of taking XTC, never knowing exactly what is in their pills, often dissapointed with the poor quality of what's available...i would realy recommend trying pure mescaline for a change. Mescaline is the best of all the phenethylamines IMO. It basically has the hallucinogen effects of LSD, paired with the empathogenic effects of realy good quality MDMA. I would say it's better even than both. Try it. You'll love it.

I haven't done mescaline in about 18 years . I do remember those trips being exactly like you just described. I might have to keep my eye out for some !