What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - v2

[Niro007]

There is already MGPA, which is the 4 phenylbutyrate, instead of the 2 phenylbutryate, so I assume there will be a MD version soon, as well as an ethyl version of MDMAPA if not already

Excuse my ignorance... Are these new compounds to make MDMA?

 

[mauve]

I'm very confused also, I always thought MDMA was made from safro

 

[unodelacosa]

Excuse my ignorance... Are these new compounds to make MDMA?

Yes, that's the current discussion.

I'm very confused also, I always thought MDMA was made from safro

Safrole (aka: 3,4-methylenedioxyallylbenzene) is still the primary starting precursor for clandestine production of MDP-2-P (aka: PMK), which is then reduced to MDx (usually MDMA, but it's also possible to make MDA, MDE, et al.). However, it is far from being the only chemical through which MDMA can be produced, some much easier and more efficient than others, but multiple ways still exist is the point as do multiple starting points. Because of the crackdown on sassafras oil and Safrole, clandestine manufacturers have sought and devised new methods to avoid unwanted scrutiny from law enforcement. New methods produce synthesis-specific side-products that LE analyze to reverse engineer the synthetic method used by the chemist to investigate who they might be, how they're producing the drug, where they're procuring their chemicals, and what new precursors need to be watched, controlled, and/or reported on by distributors.

So it's a game of cat & mouse… you know, pop goes the weasel & all that shiz.

 

[mauve]

Yes, that's the current discussion.


Safrole (aka: 3,4-methylenedioxyallylbenzene) is still the primary starting precursor for clandestine production of MDP-2-P (aka: PMK), which is then reduced to MDx (usually MDMA, but it's also possible to make MDA, MDE, et al.). However, it is far from being the only chemical through which MDMA can be produced, some much easier and more efficient than others, but multiple ways still exist is the point as do multiple starting points. Because of the crackdown on sassafras oil and Safrole, clandestine manufacturers have sought and devised new methods to avoid unwanted scrutiny from law enforcement. New methods produce synthesis-specific side-products that LE analyze to reverse engineer the synthetic method used by the chemist to investigate who they might be, how they're producing the drug, where they're procuring their chemicals, and what new precursors need to be watched, controlled, and/or reported on by distributors.

So it's a game of cat & mouse… you know, pop goes the weasel & all that shiz.

So in your opinion the quality of MDMA is better or worse using a precursor other than safro?

Was most MDMA in the 90s from safro? When did the new precursors enter scene?

 

[Niro007]

Yes, that's the current discussion.


Safrole (aka: 3,4-methylenedioxyallylbenzene) is still the primary starting precursor for clandestine production of MDP-2-P (aka: PMK), which is then reduced to MDx (usually MDMA, but it's also possible to make MDA, MDE, et al.). However, it is far from being the only chemical through which MDMA can be produced, some much easier and more efficient than others, but multiple ways still exist is the point as do multiple starting points. Because of the crackdown on sassafras oil and Safrole, clandestine manufacturers have sought and devised new methods to avoid unwanted scrutiny from law enforcement. New methods produce synthesis-specific side-products that LE analyze to reverse engineer the synthetic method used by the chemist to investigate who they might be, how they're producing the drug, where they're procuring their chemicals, and what new precursors need to be watched, controlled, and/or reported on by distributors.

So it's a game of cat & mouse… you know, pop goes the weasel & all that shiz.

I appreciate you quick reply.. i haven't been active as before so there's a lot of info i need to catch up on.

 

[AlsoTapered]

Safrole offered the simplest synthetic pathway. Oxidation to PMK and then reductive amination. That's why we are seeing a whole slew of compounds that can simply be converted to PMK.

I don't KNOW but I suspect that their is a whole layer within the circles of organized criminals producing MDMA. I believe that their are still 'cooks' who only know the last step i.e. PMK to MDMA.

I believe that their are separate labs that are producing PMK from a variety of pre-precursors.

Because law enforcement will always seek the people actually making the MDMA. PMK production is lower priority and since the precise pre-precursors involved is constantly evolving, the people working in those labs need to be somewhat more able... but the punishment of production and distribution of PMK is significantly lower.

Organized criminals silo such operations. The people making the MDMA won't know the people making the PMK.

What DOES surprise me is that their are other compounds that are subjectively very similar to MDMA and some of them are legal in most nations. But it seems almost like the criminals are demonstrating Rogerian transactional behavior. They don't CARE if the product is technically legal - they just look at what is the most profitable.

 

[unodelacosa]

So in your opinion the quality of MDMA is better or worse using a precursor other than safro?

The quality is not any different so long as you arrive at the intermediary point of PMK. Reductive amination is not really too challenging; there are multiple known ways that are all really effective and straightforward. P-2-P methamphetamine manufacture paved the way for a lot of this, since it's analogous to what happens there. Check it; it's like:

1. phenylacetic acid → P-2-P (BMK) → Methamphetamine.
2. safrole → to MDP-2-P (PMK) → to MDMA.

Generally the starting point will have the 3,4-methylenedioxybenzene scaffold already in place, but even that can be constructed from e.g. catechol or whatever.

Was most MDMA in the 90s from safro?

Probably. The stuff I made was, but I was not a major producer, just a college kid with an interest in psychedelics and organic chemistry. But as some form of evidence, countries with a lot of natural sassafras oil producing plants have seen their eco systems be affected by MDMA production, so that tells ya something at least, right?

When did the new precursors enter scene?

Depends on who you ask and on which scene specifically you're referring to. Ecstasy is a very popular drug globally. But to make a rough guess, I would say that sometime near 2011-2013 there was a big crackdown in Cambodia on Safrole-containing plant species and that's when I think chemists scrambled to cobble together new synthetic routes as well as dabbled with mixing in, or substituting wholly, certain ecstasy-like RCs. Other people will swear that 90s MDMA was the best, and the new millennium brought about the change, while others still will insist that things changed around the time of COVID. I wouldn't overthink it, and definitely don't dupe yourself into some bad experience placebo just because you think it's perceived that MDMA is somehow 'not as good as it once was' or something equally superstitious.

What DOES surprise me is that their are other compounds that are subjectively very similar to MDMA and some of them are legal in most nations. But it seems almost like the criminals are demonstrating Rogerian transactional behavior. They don't CARE if the product is technically legal - they just look at what is the most profitable.

Perhaps you're being a tad bit cynical, my friend. And I would argue that clean, real deal Holyfield 3,4-MDMA.HCl is a superstar in its class of drugs, inimitable, unique and taxing as a motherfucker on the brain and body when used in any sort of excess. As with any vice, the punishment for it is built right in.

 

[AlsoTapered]

How does one synthesize BMK directly from benzaldehyde?

If you have benzaldehyde, aminorex is actually the easier and higher-yielding target and NO user has ever complained that they got aminorex instead of meth.

But as stated, PMK is the key intermediate in MDMA synthesis.

Their are convoluted routes to MDMA from piperonal but then MDA is the better target.

 

[elgoucho9]

How does one synthesize BMK directly from benzaldehyde?

If you have benzaldehyde, aminorex is actually the easier and higher-yielding target and NO user has ever complained that they got aminorex instead of meth.

But as stated, PMK is the key intermediate in MDMA synthesis.

Their are convoluted routes to MDMA from piperonal but then MDA is the better target.

With MDA i feel like users want it because of the mystique, but then once they get it they only really want it the once before the increased neurotoxicity and come down schools them a bit. Then they'd rather regular MDMA again.

Personally loved the feeling of MDA. Such a visual trip. But sometimes it can be quite confusing and have a heavy bodyload. Then the comedown is closer to methamphetamine than MDMA for me.

Anyway sorry for the sidenote there.

Some great discussion in this thread. I had always presumed some of the more recent precusors were making a different drug altogether than MDMA. Seems like it is not down to safrole, but the chemist not going from PMK -> MDMA, and the other sythesis routes yielding an inferior product. Perhaps because like @AlsoTapered says many of the chemists involved are only well versed in going from PMK -> MDMA part of the synthesis. And these other routes are new to them. Possibly with new precursors the product coming out is either not MDMA at all and some other close analogue, or is highly impure and whatever impurity it is ruins the experience for the end user. Just my opinion.

Also i remember testing alot of MDMA during the period the 250mg+ pills/crystal first came out. And many of the pills i considered lacking in magic went jet black with the marquis. These typically only lasted a total of 2 hours the experience. Very little empathy or energy from them. Whereas the better pills all seemed to go deep purple marquis reaction and last 4 hours in duration. These were full of empathy and made you want to dance. I believe from my own findings there it furthers the theory that some of the lack lustre stuff was a close analogue rather than being legitimate MDMA.

Does anyone know how accurate say Energy Control are when they say something is MDMA? I saw a batch once that was WET clear crystal and smelt not of aniseed but of acetone! When myself and my friends tried it we all came to the conclusion it was shit, not MDMA at all. But the seller had an EC test confirming 81% MDMA. Unless he used the test result from a different batch I can't see how this was possibly legitimate when it looked, smelt and felt fake.

 

[AlsoTapered]

I could sit down and list 14 or 15 ways of producing MDMA but frankly, PMK is the one one that's really practical to scale.

After all, MDMA chemists don't call it 'the bucket method' for nothing. A room temperature synthesis that essentially results in pure MDMA freebase, is incredibly cheap and needs nothing beyond stirring for 24 hours.

Minimum investment for maximum profit.

The Dutch figured out that decentralization was the way to go decade ago. I know of a LOT of guys who will produce maybe 1Kg per weekend - just to top up their income.

The higher ups will have one person dropping off the precursors and another picking up the product and paying the cooks every week.

It's devolved into a complex model but the KEY thing is that it's unlikely the cook knows who the people are dropping off and picking up and even if the USD catches the cook... well, it only takes about 3 days to train someone and their is no shortage of people willing to do the job for €3500/Kg. These aren't people who are traditional criminals - it's generally people who have a desperate need of money and are willing to take a chance.

PMK, methanol, KOH, NaBH4 and dry HCl + a few vessels, glass not being required.

BTW it was HILARIOUS when sassafras oil was withdrawn from sale because we all used to use ocotea oil anyway. It's safrole content is so high that people wouldn't even distill it! They would just run their own variation of the Wacker oxidation and use bisulfite to extract the PMK.

We telescoped the f**k out of that route.

But now someone is selling 1-(1-benzofuran-6-yl)propan-2-one (BFMK) which is legal. If you reductively aminate it you get 6-MAPB. Since BFMK is legal (even in the UK) I'm 100% sure SOMEONE is going to figure out a way to get rich, FAST (and without breaking any laws). The one company selling it must be making a FORTUNE and they are in China.

 

[unodelacosa]

How does one synthesize BMK directly from benzaldehyde?

Sorry, I meant phenylacetic acid, though I suppose there is this: https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/ppa.l-pac.raney-ni.html

Also, there's: Phenyl-2-Propanones through Oxymercuration/Oxidation of Allylbenzenes

This is kinda interesting, too: Biotransformation of benzeldehyde to L-phenylacetylcarbinol, an intermediate in L-ephedrine production, by immobilized Candida utilis

If you have benzaldehyde, aminorex is actually the easier and higher-yielding target and NO user has ever complained that they got aminorex instead of meth.

How relatively safe is aminorex? I've always thought of making some 4-MAR from PPA w/KOCN, but there's the concern of cardio obstructive pulmonary disease… something perhaps worthy of complaint, haha

But as stated, PMK is the key intermediate in MDMA synthesis.

Yeah absolutely, but like you said, there are other ways. Like these.

Their are convoluted routes to MDMA from piperonal but then MDA is the better target.

Probably, but where there's a will, there's a way. Who knows what novel synthetic route might be thought up yet.

 

[AlsoTapered]

The biosynthesis is interesting but things like oxymercuration are hardly facile.

Aminorex and 4MAR both possess 5HT2b affinity which is why they are chronically cardiotoxic. But I would describe their subjective effects to be somewhere between amphetamine and MDMA so they aren't as reinforcing as the former.

It's 3,4-methylenedioxyaminorex (MDAR) that is the jewel in the crown. We had about 100 people try it and the reports were, well, effusive. One person wrote 'the best experience I have ever had on any drug; legal or illegal'. Essentially the subjective effects are midway between MDA and MDMA.

Aminorex was used as an anorexic in Austria during the 1960s and proved to be cardiotoxic if consumed in a chronic manner due to it's 5HT2b affinity.

I think it's reasonable to suggest that people don't consume MDA/MDMA in such a manner. Indeed MDMA displays 5HT2b affinity so it's not like it doesn't constitute a similar risk if consumed chronically.

People went for 4MAR because PPA used to be available but it's now quite tightly controlled.

KOCN won't cyclize the amino-alcohol in the case of aminorex. Instead it forms the intermediate N-(2-hydroxy-2-phenylethyl)urea.

 

[vash445]

The biosynthesis is interesting but things like oxymercuration are hardly facile.

Aminorex and 4MAR both possess 5HT2b affinity which is why they are chronically cardiotoxic. But I would describe their subjective effects to be somewhere between amphetamine and MDMA so they aren't as reinforcing as the former.

It's 3,4-methylenedioxyaminorex (MDAR) that is the jewel in the crown. We had about 100 people try it and the reports were, well, effusive. One person wrote 'the best experience I have ever had on any drug; legal or illegal'. Essentially the subjective effects are midway between MDA and MDMA.

Aminorex was used as an anorexic in Austria during the 1960s and proved to be cardiotoxic if consumed in a chronic manner due to it's 5HT2b affinity.

I think it's reasonable to suggest that people don't consume MDA/MDMA in such a manner. Indeed MDMA displays 5HT2b affinity so it's not like it doesn't constitute a similar risk if consumed chronically.

People went for 4MAR because PPA used to be available but it's now quite tightly controlled.

KOCN won't cyclize the amino-alcohol in the case of aminorex. Instead it forms the intermediate N-(2-hydroxy-2-phenylethyl)urea.

​

If I remember more people made D-amphetamines from phenylpropanolamines then 4-MAR granted. The well-known reaction of hydrazides with cyanogen bromide, usually performed in the presence of potassium or sodium bicarbonate, affords 2-amino-5-substituted-1,3,4-oxadiazoles. In the past 10 years, this reaction has been applied several times, mainly in order to obtain biologically active derivatives....

But I thought Everyone JUST made D-AMPH from PPA

US6399828B1 - Preparation of amphetamines from phenylpropanolamines - Google Patents

A process for making compound of formula I from a phenylpropanolamine salt of formula II wherein: R 1 is hydrogen or a lower alkyl group; each R 2 is independently a hydrogen, halogen, lower alkyl group, lower alkoxy groups, lower...

patents.google.com

Cyanogen Bromide is no fun and the only worse is It’s not quite on my list of things that I refuse to use, but it’s definitely well up on the list of the ones I’d rather find an alternative to. The stuff is very toxic and very volatile, and reactive as can be. But it’s not the worst thing in its family. A good candidate for that would be cyanogen azide, which you get by reacting the bromide with good old sodium azide. Good old sodium azide, which is no mean poison itself, will do that with just about any bromide that’s capable of being displaced at all( code word for yikes). Azide is one of the Nucleophiles of the Gods, like thiolate anions – if your leaving group doesn’t leave when those things barge in, you need to adjust your thoughts about it. Cyanogen bromide (or chloride) doesn't stand a chance. Marsh's papers are, most appropriately, well marbled with warnings about how to handle the stuff. It's described as "a colorless oil which detonates with great violence when subjected to mild mechanical, thermal, or electrical shock", and apologies are made for the fact that most of its properties have been determined in dilute solution. For example, its boiling point, the 1972 paper notes dryly, has not been determined. (The person who determined it would have to communicate the data from the afterworld, for one thing). The experimental section notes several things that the careless researcher might not have thought about. For one thing, you don't want to make more than a 5% solution in nonpolar solvents. Anything higher and you run the risk of having the pure stuff suddenly come out of solution and oil out on the bottom of the flask, and you certainly don't want that. You also don't want to make a solution in anything that's significantly more volatile than the azide, because then the solvent can evaporate on you, making a more concentrated stock below, and you don't want that, either. Finally, you don't want to put any of these solutions in the freezer - a particularly timely warning, since that's one of the first things many people might be tempted to do - because that'll also concentrate the azide as the solvent freezes. And you don't want that. Do you?

How do I store this?​

• Store synthesized azides below room temperature and away from sources of heat, light, pressure, and shock.
• Azides are generally classified as Storage Group X in the Stanford Storage Group Classification system, and should be stored away from all other chemicals. Specific incompatibilities include carbon disulfide, bromine, dimethyl sulfate, nitric acid, and heavy metals and their salts.
• Heavy metal azide salts tend to be highly heatand shock-sensitive explosives.
• Avoid water and strong acids which can lead to the formation of hydrazoic acid, which is highly toxic, volatile, and explosive.

Information on Azide Compounds – Stanford Environmental Health & Safety

ehs.stanford.edu

Broadly speaking, therefore, in my head... and please anyone correct me if I misunderstand the acid hydrazide and cyanogen halide are simply contacted by being mixed together in solution. Cyanogen bromide..

Also if hydrazide is converted to the corresponding azide in the presence of an acid and a nitrite and Hydrazoic acid can be made from just azides and an acid (water).

In general, olefinic, aromatic, or carbonyl azides are much less stable than aliphatic azides.Aliphatic azides are a versatile class of compounds found in a variety of biologically active pharmaceuticals. What is known is that sodium azide is water-soluable. " The compound easily pronates (adds a proton) when wet, becoming volatile hydrazoic acid)

While people may have done it in the past I sure as shit hope people knew what they are doing. Or I misreading this and there is nothing to fear... eitherway, the careless researcher shouldn't even work with cyanogen azide, or Cyanogen Bromide or anything like it, but you never can tell what fools will get up to. The compound has around a hundred references in the literature, a good percentage of which are theoretical and computational. Most of the others are physical chemistry, studying its decomposition and reactive properties. You do run into a few papers that actually use it as a reagent in synthesis, but I believe that those can be counted on the fingers, which is a good opportunity to remind oneself why they're all still attached.

https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/things-i-won-t-work-cyanogen-azide

I imagine someone wreck less they aren't avoiding water and strong acids which can lead to the formation of hydrazoic acid, which is highly toxic, volatile, and explosive. But you know I'm just thinking out loud... 1/2 the time I feel like I don't understand this but people go no-no you are right you have a "Grasp" better then half my class I teach. But if someone wants to chime in and tell me what I'm not understanding.. I am all ears...

 

[vash445]

For our french researchers

fraance L-analyse-de-drogue-a-distance-Psychoactif-en-a-reve-et-l-a-fait is an Option

L'analyse de drogue à distance : Psychoactif en a rêvé.. et l'a fait ! / Les Blogs de PsychoACTIF

Bonjour,l'idée part d'une discussion entre deux membres de l'équipe de Psychoactif. Pour concrétiser cette idée, nous avons été rencontré le laboratoire d'analyse 'ATP IDF', le réseau ATP porté par la Fédération Addiction, Psychonaut, le Réseau nationale de RDR à distance coordonné par Safe. Après u

www.psychoactif.org

At this stage you probably know that I do my best to always have my drug tested by our fantastic French lab, financed by state money as far as I know in a process of harm reduction to avoid having nasty killing products spreading like the tragic fentanyl epidemic in the US...

In this sample analyzed by HPLC-DAD, we detected and quantified cocaine at 81.4% base equivalent, or 91.2% hydrochloride equivalent. Our quantitative results are reported with an uncertainty of 10%.
- You request a drug analysis by email or pm to Psychoactif
- The structure validates your request, sends you an email with the procedure to follow, and asks you to complete a collection questionnaire which gives you a unique identification number for your analysis.
- You send your sample to ATP Ile de France, following the procedure described by the email, in particular with the unique identification number.
- The ATP Ile de France laboratory will devote the nights from Thursday to Friday to analyzing the samples. This means that the results will generally be returned within a maximum of a week from receipt: they will be displayed on the analysis results page , and/or by email according to your choice.

Remote drug analysis via Psychoactif is a community approach. The analysis results can be discussed on the forums by the community with the aim of collective construction of knowledge on drugs.

To have a drug analyzed via Psychoactif, please send an email [email protected]

 

[unodelacosa]

But if someone wants to chime in and tell me what I'm not understanding.. I am all ears...

No, regarding BrCN you pretty much nailed it. Requires a blast shield and plenty of fumigation. The shit is deadly toxic and highly volatile, like you said. No thank you. I think it should be prepared and used right away, and storage of it should be eschewed entirely. Who would want shit like that sitting around? Seems foolish and would just make me nervous.

And anyway, there are better approaches, like via the more stable KOCN to form a urea intermediate and quench it with HCl. Simple, one-pot shot, and technically legal in the U.S. as it produces the trans-4-MAR enantiomer. Only the cis enantiomer is scheduled on the Federal level, and it was already put to the test in a landmark Federal case in the Circuit Court for the Middle District of Florida, United States of America v William Hahne, in 2004. Dude got the trans-enantiomer associated weight taken off his attributed weight for sentencing, but the other charges he had still fetched him a 48-month sentence.

Hell, even Uncle Fester is under manufacturing and possession charges right now.

Our quantitative results are reported with an uncertainty of 10%.

Among quantitative results labs like the one described, is 10% standard, low, high? Can you give that some context, please? Thanks! Excellent contributions, btw.

 

[vash445]

No, regarding BrCN you pretty much nailed it. Requires a blast shield and plenty of fumigation. The shit is deadly toxic and highly volatile, like you said. No thank you. I think it should be prepared and used right away, and storage of it should be eschewed entirely. Who would want shit like that sitting around? Seems foolish and would just make me nervous.

And anyway, there are better approaches, like via the more stable KOCN to form a urea intermediate and quench it with HCl. Simple, one-pot shot, and technically legal in the U.S. as it produces the trans-4-MAR enantiomer. Only the cis enantiomer is scheduled on the Federal level, and it was already put to the test in a landmark Federal case in the Circuit Court for the Middle District of Florida, United States of America v William Hahne, in 2004. Dude got the trans-enantiomer associated weight taken off his attributed weight for sentencing, but the other charges he had still fetched him a 48-month sentence.

Hell, even Uncle Fester is under manufacturing and possession charges right now.


Among quantitative results labs like the one described, is 10% standard, low, high? Can you give that some context, please? Thanks! Excellent contributions, btw.

Yeah I thought so and know about all that... Still someone not knowing the proper precautions for KOCN or KCN/NaCN should not be understated with if you don't understand don't fuck with it category it is a cyanide salt after all... Lot of people this stupid reaction BrCN and others and wishing to attempt... I'll tell you that much. While KOCN is the safe of the bunch. I still wouldn't want someone who had no idea the dangers BrCN touching KOCN

 

[vash445]

Among quantitative results labs like the one described, is 10% standard, low, high? Can you give that some context, please? Thanks! Excellent contributions, btw.

FTIR is 5% WITH GYTD and UVIC

PS-MS with UVIC https://substance.uvic.ca/paperspray

• PS-MS will automatically screen for all compounds on the target list.
• Sensitivity will vary by compound but in many cases these compounds can be detected under 1%
• Compounds not on the list can usually be identified by their precursor and/or product ions (we identify the m/z of the parent compound fragments). In these cases we do not have an analytical standard, rely on manual interpretation, and cannot provide a weight by weight percentage

 

[vash445]

On this site about safrole, I write articles about it based on my experience

Chemistry is an exact science. Analytics allows you to get access to results of your syntheses in a qualitative and quantitative way.

safrole.com

 

[vash445]

Among quantitative results labs like the one described, is 10% standard, low, high? Can you give that some context, please? Thanks! Excellent contributions, btw.

• By G.Patton
• 16 Nov

Mr Good CatI can tell you that there are GC methods, where the error about 30-40%. 5-10% Is not so bad. It's the reality of analytical chemistry.
Chem-SafeAs I said. TLC with calibrated ruler will be more informative than your 120 EUR with error margin 10%. There is nothing to talk.
And, by the way, you were asked, how many tests do you perform per one sample to reduce this "human error". But it looks you avoid such unpleasant questions.

Enegry Control - questinable service, wasting time and money???

Had a few attempts to collaborate with Energy Control in harm reduction realm and safety. More than questionable. First of all you have wait to get your result at least 3-4 weeks from shipping date, and 2-3 weeks from delivery date. First sample took 3 weeks from delivery date, that is out of...

bbgate.com

 

[vecktor]

umpolung

How does one synthesize BMK directly from benzaldehyde?