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What is human nature? v. And are we innately evil?

A question might clear it up for you when you answer it.

Did you always disrespect your elders and not do as bid by them?

You, like most, likely did head them to some extent That would place you below them in the hierarchy you grew up in.

You would have been under the same compulsion with bosses and your government.

Regards
DL
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Once again you miss the point. I don't think you are ignorant so something else is going on so this will be my last attempt at discussion with you on this issue.

What does it matter what I would do? I do not represent humanity or other cultures who may have grown up is systems much different than what I am used to or was indoctrinated in.

You may now carry on without me.
 
tantric said:
yes, but parents and children are not a part of that. i'm talking science - ethology, . yes, parents controlling their offspring is a hierarchy in the lay sense. but it is NOT a dominance hierarchy in the technical sense. for one thing - who is dominant, parent or child? you think the parent, guess again. the parent is a machine for making offspring, and it will do whatever is required of it to do so. children are a nightmare burden - one that drastically decreases your basic survival fitness. but we don't, can't look at them like that. we don't say 'wow, what a messy noisy useless hunk of flesh that fell out of my vagina, take it away, kill it with fire'. nope - those hormones kick in and you are the rugrat's slave.
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It is doing so to maintain the tribe, or have the tribe go extinct.

I have worked for my children, sure but it was not slavery but duty that was pushing me.

Regards
DL
 
Don't think I ever really contributed to this thread. I don't think humans are innately evil, but they aren't particularly good either. As with all animals, our existence's/life's main goal is to survive and procreate, whereas humans also strive towards better quality of life. We do affect the whole Earth's ecosystem negatively, but it is not our direct intention to do so - it's more of a by-product of our lacking understanding of how the world works (of the masses) and also due to a severe lack of consideration for other (species). However, the average human only cares about itself and its close ones, it doesn't have goals such as harming others for no personal gain.

I would probably agree that humans are among the most altruistic animals, especially when it comes to altruism towards other species. Few other animals actually care about the welfare of species other than their own.
 
belligerent drunk said:
Don't think I ever really contributed to this thread. I don't think humans are innately evil, but they aren't particularly good either. As with all animals, our existence's/life's main goal is to survive and procreate, whereas humans also strive towards better quality of life. We do affect the whole Earth's ecosystem negatively, but it is not our direct intention to do so - it's more of a by-product of our lacking understanding of how the world works (of the masses) and also due to a severe lack of consideration for other (species). However, the average human only cares about itself and its close ones, it doesn't have goals such as harming others for no personal gain.

I would probably agree that humans are among the most altruistic animals, especially when it comes to altruism towards other species. Few other animals actually care about the welfare of species other than their own.
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You might want to listen to the link I put above.

I think it strange, that as we force many other species into extinction, you think we are more altruistic to them than to each other.

This other link, like the one above, seems to indicate otherwise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo

Regards
DL
 
I never said humans were more altruistic towards other species than their own. I said that as far as animals go, humans are among the most altruistic towards other species. There's a difference.
 
belligerent drunk said:
I never said humans were more altruistic towards other species than their own. I said that as far as animals go, humans are among the most altruistic towards other species. There's a difference.
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I read it slightly differently but thanks for correcting me.

Regards
DL
 
belligerent drunk said:
I never said humans were more altruistic towards other species than their own. I said that as far as animals go, humans are among the most altruistic towards other species. There's a difference.
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Really? You believe that? Have you ever been to a factory farm and seen what goes on there? Likely not but you sure likely have gobbled down a burger without wanting to know.
 
I remember the high efficiency farm discussion in the vegan thread.

BD argued that quite extensively iirc.
 
Cosmic Trigger said:
Really? You believe that? Have you ever been to a factory farm and seen what goes on there? Likely not but you sure likely have gobbled down a burger without wanting to know.
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I have watched plenty documentaries and videos of what goes on in those farms, and how the workers physically harm the animals as a pastime. I know all that.
 
I think an argument was made something like, if animals could think like us and were able to manage the energy resource of their animal companions, they would set it up exactly as we. As efficient as possible, despite how cruel it is.

I think other animals only seem altruistic because they have no choice. Robots possibly.
 
I believe animals all have awareness, however there are a lot of life-forms, probably most when microorganisms, insects, etc are taken into account, that probably have no sense of self whatsoever, are not aware of anything that's happening on any sort of conscious level. However there are a lot of animals that I think have a sense of self and experience of living similar to ours but just with less awareness/intelligence. Dogs, cats, and loads of other mammals at least are certainly aware and have a sense of self... if you've ever had a relationship with one, it's hard for me to see how that could be denied. They do have cerebral cortexes, and memories, in their brain. They have unique personalities, different behaviors, and they feel love (dogs in particular, and elephants too). They're "people", just not human people. I would guess that they have less choice in their actions than we do, but there is certainly sentience and thought happening.

I always thought the idea that only humans have any free will or sense of self among all life on Earth was a pretty arrogant thing. Not calling you arrogant Nixiam, just saying.
 
Nixiam said:
I think an argument was made something like, if animals could think like us and were able to manage the energy resource of their animal companions, they would set it up exactly as we. As efficient as possible, despite how cruel it is.
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I don't know about that. It seems a generalisation. Look to evolutionary psychology for some possible reasons why humans act as we do. We seem to be playing out the hierarchical, social and resource oriented tropes of our progenitors. Also, we have hands. That single reason, our unquely dextrous, nimble hands- therefore, our ability to interact with and modify the environment- our hands ability to perform excruciatingly complex tasks- and how large a brain area our hands/thumb occupies- suggests we are unqiely primed to modify the environment to our will. The current state of affairs on earth is solely related to the capacities of homo sapiens.

If another animal had evolved consciousness, and there is evidence of self-awareness in apes, dolphins, magpies, there is no reason to think they too would engage in things like factory farming or mass industry or nations/money/laws/etc, and there are no violently warring magpie religious sects.

I think other animals only seem altruistic because they have no choice. Robots possibly.
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I don't think animals are robots by any means. They are autonomous, self-governed entities. They are just more honest about their motives than humans.

But, do humans have a choice? We aren't that long from the wild. I don't really believe humans are all that altruistic; the self is always present, clamoring for its share.
 
Xorkoth said:
I believe animals all have awareness, however there are a lot of life-forms, probably most when microorganisms, insects, etc are taken into account, that probably have no sense of self whatsoever, are not aware of anything that's happening on any sort of conscious level. However there are a lot of animals that I think have a sense of self and experience of living similar to ours but just with less awareness/intelligence. Dogs, cats, and loads of other mammals at least are certainly aware and have a sense of self... if you've ever had a relationship with one, it's hard for me to see how that could be denied. They do have cerebral cortexes, and memories, in their brain. They have unique personalities, different behaviors, and they feel love (dogs in particular, and elephants too). They're "people", just not human people. I would guess that they have less choice in their actions than we do, but there is certainly sentience and thought happening.

I always thought the idea that only humans have any free will or sense of self among all life on Earth was a pretty arrogant thing. Not calling you arrogant Nixiam, just saying.
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Actually, very few animals have a sense of self. Few will examine themselves or recognize themselves in a mirror, which is one of the main tests if I recall correctly. It is a fairly unique trait, but yes, most sentient animals do think in some rudimentary way.

In some cases, animals can think better than we can in terms of innovation and not being such sheeple.

http://www.snotr.com/video/5210/Chimps_Vs_Children

belligerent drunk said:
I never said humans were more altruistic towards other species than their own. I said that as far as animals go, humans are among the most altruistic towards other species. There's a difference.
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And human to human.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ADgh3yCSdM

How good and altruistic are we?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo

swilow said:
But, do humans have a choice? We aren't that long from the wild. I don't really believe humans are all that altruistic; the self is always present, clamoring for its share.
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Absolutely and that selfish gene is what makes us so altruistic.

We are born the weakest animal on the planet and know that safety is in being good to each other. That is why our instincts default to cooperation instead of competition.

A mush better chance of survival if we have a lot of friends and friends do good to each other.

Regards
DL
 
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