What is a religion? (Is Buddhism a religion? What about atheism?)

[ForEverAfter]

I find the word religion should be ban as it contains so much negativity and problem.

Is it possible that Buddhism is a religion, but - due to the negative stigma that the word has - you don't like referring to it as one?

The majority of people on this thread believe that it is a religion.
From my observations, it is only Buddhists who say that it isn't.
Why do you think that is?

Can't it be both a practice and a religion?
I mean, how is it not a non-theistic religion?

I'm not trying to be negative.
This thread isn't inevitably going to decline into negativity, either.
We're doing well so far, aren't we? (I disagree with you about banning words.)

Do you think anybody treats Buddhism as a religion?
(Elvis isn't a God, but he is worshiped like one.)

 

[murphythecat]

Is it possible that Buddhism is a religion, but - due to the negative stigma that the word has - you don't like referring to it as one?

The majority of people on this thread believe that it is a religion.
From my observations, it is only Buddhists who say that it isn't.
Why do you think that is?

Can't it be both a practice and a religion?
I mean, how is it not a non-theistic religion?

I'm not trying to be negative.
This thread isn't inevitably going to decline into negativity, either.
We're doing well so far, aren't we? (I disagree with you about banning words.)

Do you think anybody treats Buddhism as a religion?
(Elvis isn't a God, but he is worshiped like one.)

I have edited my post.

''There are soccer fans and professional soccer players. Can we say that a soccer fan has the same life has a professional soccer player? there many different type of buddhist. theres fan of buddhist that believes more or less the principles of buddhism but dont practice. that imo doesnt make them practionners. For me, a buddhist is someone who practice very seriously. so we cannot put all buddhist in the same boat. for the buddhist fan, buddhism is indeed more related to a ''religion'''''



religion is a word empty of a reality because its a broad term. it doesnt mean anything. theres too many aspect of all religions.
for someone who worship elvis, it would be simpler to say that he likes to worship elvis. if you want to define this as a religion, what does it change for the reality? nothing.

 

[murphythecat]

Is it possible that Buddhism is a religion, but - due to the negative stigma that the word has - you don't like referring to it as one?

I dont like the word religion because imo it means nothing really. its too broad

The majority of people on this thread believe that it is a religion.

what does it change if its a religion or not?

Can't it be both a practice and a religion?

at this point, what is a religion? imo, the words mean nothing.
it would be like asking: is soccer a sport. yes, okay, its a sport, now what?

is drinking a coffee is a religion if someone would come out and try to make a group that believe drinking coffee will bring them to coffee paradise and eternal life?

all I want to show here is that trying to define a group of practice so broad as buddhism and to compare it to islam, or Christianity and put in all in the same boat is truly useless and can only lead to conflict as they are totally different realities.

 

[ForEverAfter]

If religion is an empty word that means nothing, then why object to Buddhism being classified as a religion?
And aren't all words essentially "empty of reality"?

There are soccer fans and professional soccer players. Can we say that a soccer fan has the same life has a professional soccer player? there many different type of buddhist. theres fan of buddhist that believes more or less the principles of buddhism but dont practice. that imo doesnt make them practionners. For me, a buddhist is someone who practice very seriously. so we cannot put all buddhist in the same boat. for the buddhist fan, buddhism is indeed more related to a ''religion''

That analogy doesn't really fit.
Soccer is a sport, to fans and pros.

You're saying that Buddhism is a religion to some people, and not to others.
Okay... So, it is a religion then?

for practionners, buddhism is a practice and a training.

Why can't it be both?
The same could be said for practitioners of Christianity.
Being mindful isn't just a Buddhist thing.

They say a good Christian lives by the words of the Bible, rather than just reading them.

Meditation, too, exists in multiple religious belief systems. Doesn't it?
I still don't see how Buddhism differs from other religions.

https://philippians1v21.wordpress.com/why-believe-in-jesus/why-christianity-is-not-a-religion/

I dont like the word religion because imo it means nothing really. its too broad

If you think Buddhism doesn't qualify as a religion, it really isn't very broad.

You've said a couple of times that it means nothing. But, obviously, it means something to you... or you wouldn't object to Buddhism being classified as a religion.

what does it change if its a religion or not?

It doesn't change anything.
So, what's your concern?

at this point, what is a religion? imo, the words mean nothing.
it would be like asking: is soccer a sport. yes, okay, its a sport, now what?

It would be like asking if soccer is a sport, except there aren't people out there that believe soccer isn't a sport...

What is a religion? That's what this thread is about.
If you don't think the discussion has value, you don't have to contribute.

is drinking a coffee is a religion if someone would come out and try to make a group that believe drinking coffee will bring them to coffee paradise and eternal life?

all I want to show here is that trying to define a group of practice so broad as buddhism and to compare it to islam, or Christianity and put in all in the same boat is truly useless and can only lead to conflict as they are totally different realities.

They're not totally different.
Drinking coffee is not to Christianity as Christianity is to Buddhism.
If I'd started a thread titled "Is drinking coffee a religion?" the answer would be no.
Buddhism, if it is not a religion, has a lot of striking similarities to other religions.

I'm not trying to put equate Buddhism with Christianity.
Religions, like reptiles, are varied.

You might as well say, "Reptile? What's a reptile anyway? The word is meaningless. Snakes and turtles are totally different," or, "Animal? What's an animal anyway? The word is meaningless. Snakes and ants are totally different."

 

[murphythecat]

If religion is an empty word that means nothing, then why object to Buddhism being classified as a religion?
And aren't all words essentially "empty of reality"?
because for so many, religion = negativity.

You're saying that Buddhism is a religion to some people, and not to others.
Okay... So, it is a religion then?
yes, to some, its nothing more then something that make sense for them. for the practitioner, buddhism is not a religion at all, but a practice.

Being mindful isn't just a Buddhist thing.

where did I say it was? we all use mindfulness, otherwise we couldnt live, we couldnt dial the right number, couldnt pass a street without being killed! but there only 4 foundation for mindfulness in buddhism, its hardly comparable but its related definitely. theres right mindfulness in buddhism, and not right mindfulness. even a robber or a assasin have a lot of mindfulness and need mindfulness to not getting caught, but its not right mindfulness.

Meditation, too, exists in multiple religious belief systems. Doesn't it?
I still don't see how Buddhism differs from other religions.
theres too many definition of the word religion.

Soccer is a sport, to fans and pros.
what I mean here is that the life of a fan and a professional soccer player is so different that we cannot say that they live, experience and see soccer the same way.

 

[ForEverAfter]

If religion is an empty word that means nothing, then why object to Buddhism being classified as a religion?
And aren't all words essentially "empty of reality"?

because for so many, religion = negativity.

So I was right, when I said this:

Is it possible that Buddhism is a religion, but - due to the negative stigma that the word has - you don't like referring to it as one?

...

Being mindful isn't just a Buddhist thing.

where did I say it was?

I asked you how Buddhism is not a religion and you started describing aspects of Buddhism (like mindfulness and meditation), so I assumed - given the context - that you were attempting to explain (by use of example) how Buddhism differs from other religions... I guess, if that's not the case, that you weren't even answering the question?

I feel like every time I talk to you about Buddhism, you play the same recording.
Why are you describing meditation and mindfulness, if they aren't Buddhist-specific traits?
What's the point you were trying to make, in the context of this discussion?

 

[murphythecat]

I have just read the definition of religion.
in many ways indeed, we could say its a religion. sorry foreverafter!
I still dont understand the need to put all religion in the same boat as if theres any use to do that, but whatever rocks your boat!

definition of religion. I personally find definitions of such a vast and complex matter such has religion truly useless and most importantly often very dangerous, as we can see form all the religion wars.
I guess we should learn from how dangerous the use of that word is.

1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects:
the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices:
a world council of religions.
4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.:
to enter religion.
5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6.
something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience:
to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7.
religions, Archaic. religious rites:
painted priests performing religions deep into the night.

 

[ForEverAfter]

Why do you think it is that Buddhists (rather than Christians or Jews) often insist that Buddhism is not a religion?

I personally find definitions of such a vast and complex matter such has religion truly useless and most importantly often very dangerous, as we can see form all the religion wars. I guess we should learn from how dangerous the use of that word is.

Excuse me for saying so, but that's downright ridiculous!
First you say that the word (religion) is empty and meaningless, then you blame it for wars?
It's just a word. We can't help but have labels for things. But, you don't blame the label.

Monks don't set themselves on fire because of a word.

 

[ForEverAfter]

the difference between agnosticism and atheism is very small, and that it is incorrect to pigeonhole atheism into the narrow definition of being the assertion of absolute certainty that god does not exist.

After doing some reading, I'm not convinced of your definitions.

an atheist believes there is no empirical evidence for god, and tends to think that rationality supports the position that no such evidence is likely to be found. An agnostic also believes there is no empirical evidence for the existence of god, but they do not see the idea of a god as less rational than any other means of explaining the creation of the universe.

Both of them are agnostic, I think. I don't think I'm pigeonholing atheism any more than you're pigeonholing agnosticism. The word atheist literally means no god and the word agnostic literally means no knowledge. You're saying that atheism includes both disbelief and the lack of belief coupled with skepticism, but isn't there a spectrum within agnosticism? I mean if you lean towards disbelief ever so slightly, are you agnostic?

Your words "no such evidence is likely to be found" lead me to ask "how likely"?
Does agnosticism overlap atheism?

I think your model is wrong.

 

[murphythecat]

Why do you think it is that Buddhists (rather than Christians or Jews) often insist that Buddhism is not a religion?

because it demands so much practice, compare to most other belief system, buddhism is a practice that demands definitely a lot of effort. have you ever tried to follow your breath?
there is so much methods, so much different state of awareness available in meditation, so many teachings on to how deal with the mind, how to train the mind.
comparing buddhism to Islam or chirstianity is to me wrong. have you ever read the suttas, the discourses, and the bible and the coran?
if you want to say they are both religion, go ahead, but I'm not sure what is the point at all.

First you say that the word (religion) is empty and meaningless, then you blame it for wars?

yes, people fight because of words even though they are totally empty of any reality.

My question to you is why did you open this thread? do you really want to know what is a religion? do you really want to know if buddhism is a religion? what would it mean to you if buddhism is a religion?

 

[GodandLove]

no, atheism isn't a religion.

Yes IT IS. You're in denial. End of discussion.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

Wikipedia says a religion "is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence."

The Oxford dictionary defines it (religion) as a "particular system of faith and worship".

Is (a)theism is a religion? No, certainly not by the presented definitions (which are accepted in the English language, I should think). (A)theism is an aspect of religious systems, it does not constitute a system in and of itself. Most religions are theistic, but Hinduism and Buddhism have atheistic variants, for instance. Do they have much else in common with the metaphysical naturalism that atheism connotes in our society? No. The same goes for theists, once we get past a superficial agreement that there is at least one deity, and start asking what is the nature of the divine, we quickly find that the theologies of the theists are mutually exclusive. (A)theists share a single belief, not a set of beliefs, not a culture, nor any organized system of thought.


Is Buddhism a religion? By definition, yes.


I'd also like to highlight tantric's post, and add that we cannot overemphasize the communal aspect of religion, which is ritualistic at minimum, but generally of a far more extensive nature.

hell, people leave offering at mao zedong's tomb - *communism* can be a religion.

I'm glad you brought in the idea of civil religion.

 

[methamaniac]

What about agnostics?
Surely, they're not religious!

IMO, There's no way to be exactly fifty-fifty in reality with respect ( to God exististing)
I believe agnostics switch back and forth to believing and not believing a supernatural entity exists.
Sometimes they believe certain evidence points to a God and other times they interpret evidence to suggest there is no God.
An atheist on the other hand, will always intepret any data or evidence as always being in favor of no God, and thus posit there must be a naturalistic explanation -even if it is yet unknown.

 

[drug_mentor]

After doing some reading, I'm not convinced of your definitions.



Both of them are agnostic, I think. I don't think I'm pigeonholing atheism any more than you're pigeonholing agnosticism. The word atheist literally means no god and the word agnostic literally means no knowledge. You're saying that atheism includes both disbelief and the lack of belief coupled with skepticism, but isn't there a spectrum within agnosticism? I mean if you lean towards disbelief ever so slightly, are you agnostic?

Your words "no such evidence is likely to be found" lead me to ask "how likely"?
Does agnosticism overlap atheism?

I think your model is wrong.

As far as I understand, an agnostic holds that it is impossible to know anything about god or the creation of the Universe. They don't make any kind of value judgement about the likelihood of god, because they don't think it is knowable. I don't see how there can be a spectrum of belief as to how knowable the unknowable is.

Atheists (at least from an empiricist perspective) believe that there is no evidence that god exists, so they are operating under the assumption that god does not exist until that evidence comes to light. Any atheist I have ever met will concede that you can't disprove god. Where an atheist would differ from an agnostic, in my view, is they don't believe that it is impossible to know anything about god, they believe that for various reasons other than the lack of evidence (be it rationality, intuition, etc.) there is good reason to conclude that god does not exist.

You are correct that atheism means no god, but you seem committed to interpreting that definition in one particular way. The language of denial is not always absolute, for example, I could very reasonably claim that there is no cure for AIDS on the basis that one is not currently known (that I am aware of). My claim that there is no cure for AIDS is not equivalent to my saying it is absolutely impossible that we will ever find a cure for AIDS, or that my position could not possibly be a false belief. The claim that there is no god can be interpreted in a number of ways, most of which are viewpoints which would fall under the term atheism.

 

[Xorkoth]

I appreciate the very civil nature of this discussion, good work everyone. I'd lime to contribute but I'm quite sleep-deprived after this weekend so I'll hold off until my brain is working better... right now I have a cacophony of noise that probably wouldn't come out very coherently.

 

[Tromps]

Is a Christian who doesn't go to church, or worship Jesus, non-Christian?
What about someone who believes in God but doesn't adhere to a recognized religion?

Define a Christian.

Living a Christ-like life. In a sense that you live your life as close as you can to imitate the personality and person of Jesus, yes.

Worship, living in love, living in freedom. Does it make me passionate, an enthusiast, to praise and be in the presence of God without obligation, make me a Christian?

Or does following rules, obligations, and accepting mans church make me Christian?

I follow Jesus. Not pastors, nor popes, nor preachers, no human church. I know the almighty - I am part of His Church.

Don't mistake me - it's good to find connections in your life that will help make you the best you can be. Fellowship leads me to attend denomination/nondenominational churches from time to time.

I believe God has his own Church on earth that only He leads through His people. A whole different idea of what churches we think of are right.

Love > Theology

Love is my religion. Don't trip in the semantics anyone.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

Atheists (at least from an empiricist perspective) believe that there is no evidence that god exists, so they are operating under the assumption that god does not exist until that evidence comes to light.

The empiricist argument against god's existence is the most compelling, and has been probably since David Hume's. However, it gives me pause to consider that if we are to characterize knowledge as being derived exclusively from sensory experience (excepting analytic propositions), we are pretty much limiting ourselves to the scientific method as a means of gaining knowledge. This means we are limited to what we can form falsifiable hypotheses about, so the existence of a deity beyond the observable universe is inherently outside the realm of knowable. So, while I am perfectly comfortable rejecting the existence of an active, personal god(s) demanding worship and dictating how we ought to live such as is presented by the theistic religions, on the ground that the divine left us with no good reason to believe that it exists or that any particular dogma concerning its will is true over competing claims, I would not strictly consider myself to be an atheist (in the militant, antitheistic sense that the term often carries), but an apatheist. When presented with the question of whether or not there is a god, I would answer that it does not and should not matter to us one way or the other.

 

[ForEverAfter]

When presented with the question of whether or not there is a god, I would answer that it does not and should not matter to us one way or the other.

What matters, though, aside from stuff that directly affects our survival?
It sounds like a bit of a cop out.

I mean, you could use the same logic to kill any number of potential conversations before they begin.

If God exists or doesn't exist, it doesn't matter whether or not we believe God exists or doesn't exist.
Sure, obviously... But the same could be said for black holes.

My question to you is why did you open this thread? do you really want to know what is a religion? do you really want to know if buddhism is a religion? what would it mean to you if buddhism is a religion?

That's about three times, now, you've implied that I have ulterior motives for shit that I post.
I've been very straight-forward.

Do I really want to know what a religion is?
No. I wanted to discuss it, openly, and (hopefully) learn something.
There have been many well-worded and insightful posts.

As for Buddhism, I just find it odd - after all this time - to discover that Buddhists don't think they belong to a religion. I don't want to offend anyone. But, frankly, it's a little crazy.

 

[murphythecat]

As for Buddhism, I just find it odd - after all this time - to discover that Buddhists don't think they belong to a religion. I don't want to offend anyone. But, frankly, it's a little crazy.

after reading the definition of religion, read threads that discuss if buddhism is religion or a philosophy in various buddhist forum, Id say that buddhism is a religion, but also goes beyond both concept.
also, buddhist are pretty much atheist in that we do not worship any gods nor believe in their importance in our life.

 

[Xorkoth]

Technically, if Buddhism believes they exist, then it's not an atheistic religion, even if they're not worshipped.