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What decides what you see and how you see it on psychs?

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moonyham

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Feb 15, 2007
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2,809
Hey,

So i was thinking today about all the crazy shit you see while on mushies, acid, mescaline, what ever your choice of psychedelic drug is. But, when you are tripping out, what is it that makes you see goblins running out of some bushes, or people with 4 heads and 20 eyes, or grass that dances.

I mean, is what your subconcious wants YOU to see? Or is it all stuff that sort of wears off onto you.. ya know you see something sober(or while tripping) then you see it while tripping as a hallucination?

But what i REALLY want to know, how come certain visual effects are very common, like breathing walls(anything really) or swirling patterns, or kaleidoscope visuals? And whats up with seeing EYES while you trip out?
 
It's hard to say really what makes you see certain things.

The main thing I notice in LSD is overall my experiences have taught me that everything is an illusion. Everything that happens in our everyday lives even are illusions. With that said, you can almost "see" anything. While on a chemical like LSD you can have a feeling of being stuck in timeless infinite loops that can illuminiate or go anywhere and cause you to think you're seeing something.

It's still all an illusion.

LSD can finally allow you to realize this on a level of understanding that finally says " I know". Not always, but you can certainly get hints of the "ultimate truth". And I'm sure that's subjective, but it all leads to the same place because we are all one and subjectively sometimes it's hard to see that without meditation or ego loss/mysticism.

About the visuals again, sorry I'm high so I keep drifting off.

Archtypes on shrooms/LSD, such as vivid aztec/indian/mayan patterns and "ancient writing" can all be linked to some subconscious material that is embedded in our brains since our brain is like a computer. Some of the mechanisms are obviously not easily unlocked without a tryptamine.

These patterns may have well been seen by the aztecs and maybe that influenced their art since they were known to experiment with psilosybin, LSA ect.


For some art, check this out.

Mushroom visual effects:
http://www.fredweidmann.com/img/Pan.cyan print.jpg

http://www.fredweidmann.com/img/Mayastele illu.jpg
 
The brain seems to have a remarkable capacity for turning "meaningless" data into reality; eg. the human blind spot usually appears to be the surrounding surfaces. The brain just creates the assumed surface.

While science can explain pretty well the basis for the hallucinations, theres no evidence that what we see when tripping aren't actually occuring. As said above, we can see more perhaps. The whole multi-armed deity thing is probably an effect of trailing; DMT specifically gives me a lot of very complex patterning overlaying itself, so people can have multiple heads, arms eyes etc. LSD seems to bring forth things from my meory/subconcious- people I am conversing with often flip between various similar countenances- surfaces ripple which I think is an effect created by the changes in depth perception, hence ones eyes take notice of multiple shadows/light areas simulataneously, creating a flickering effect.....the real elven stuff seems embedded in the tryptamines and quite astonishig in its complexity.
 
Would you go as far to say that we are constantly tripping out but that our mind makes it all normal and that drugs show us the truth of what we are really witnessing?

I mean, we have dmt already in our brain and ive heard something about dreams and dmt being involved(never really looked into it, just heard) And dreams are fucking trippy man.

Also whats with this 'we dont know what we seeing isnt really there'. Of course we know its not really there.. i mean you can TOUCH it and find that it is not there, or other people who ARENT tripping will know its not there.
 
I think it was the book, Storming Heaving: LSD and the American Dream that discussed an LSD experiment where many of the subjects visualized a field of eyes during their trip(s). The people running the trial initially thought that the vision of eyes was perhaps something intrinsic in the LSD experience, until they realized that all these subjects had been shown various pictures during their evaluation for participation in the experience, one of which included a picture of many eyes or something similar.

Expectation, personal experience, subconscious, and mood all play a big role in what one sees with hallucinogens.
 
moonyham said:
Would you go as far to say that we are constantly tripping out but that our mind makes it all normal and that drugs show us the truth of what we are really witnessing?
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Perhaps. Who knows? The fact we do see these things mean they are real, in at least one sense. But no, I don't think we are constantly tripping, but I do like the idea of our brains being a filter for sensory data, and pyshcedelics seemingly sever that filter. Hence all data arrives at once.

Also whats with this 'we dont know what we seeing isnt really there'. Of course we know its not really there.. i mean you can TOUCH it and find that it is not there, or other people who ARENT tripping will know its not there.
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Point in question- the moon. I can't touch it but I know its there ;) :) Likewise electricity- I CAN'T touch it or see it, but I know its there. The existence of something isn't dependant on whether its touchable or not. It is determined by the way we perceive. A schizophrenic in the midst of a psychosis will, for all intents and purposes, be experiencing real phenomena- to them.

When we dream all those other normal inputs are simply shut off and we notice what's going on in our minds more. I don't think by any means that dreaming is mediated by DMT or that it is even "generated" by anything. If you ask me, dreaming is the result of a lack of electrical stimulation of the brain, nothing more.
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But dreaming is associated with very slow wave electrical pulses- not a lack of electricity in the brain. If that stimulation shut off when we slept, we would die. Of course dreams are generated by something; how else do we experience them? The generator is our mind and memories.

rocknroll said:
To sum it up, on psychedelics our imaginations are simply rocketed off the face of the planet and I believe that's all there is to it.
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Fair enough. Though that doesn't answer anything; why then does our imagination create such images when effected by a psychedelic, images that are prevalent in many cultures and societies, as if all humans share a basic subset of memories? Reasearch form constants.

rocknroll said:
If someone believes there is something more to it than that, I believe they are simply delusional.
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Oh :( Thats me alright. I dunno, do you think a psychedelic forum is the best spot to criticise basically 80% of the members who do believe there is something more to these things? If its a delusion, its a good one and I like it. I reckon you haven't taken the right drugz ;) :D
 
Ya, delusion is great!!!

But what my point was with the 'touching' is existence can be witnessed. If something exists, it should be able to stimulate all senses - touch, sound, taste, smell, and of course vision. When hallucinating we can SEE these things but we cannot touch, taste, smell or hear them. We cannot touch the moon no but we can see its effects, just like we cant see the wind but we can see its effects, like dust kicking up or a tumble weed going by.


And we dont need to take drugs to see the moon lol.
 
moonyham said:
Ya, delusion is great!!!

But what my point was with the 'touching' is existence can be witnessed. If something exists, it should be able to stimulate all senses - touch, sound, taste, smell, and of course vision. When hallucinating we can SEE these things but we cannot touch, taste, smell or hear them. we can see its effects, like dust kicking up or a tumble weed going by.

Unless you can ;) But gravity- no senses can detect that, yet it exists. Anyway, I'm being pedantic :D


And we dont need to take drugs to see the moon lol.
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No, but I was pointing ot that you were referring to 'touch'- now its seeing. The oldest philosiphacal adage- "How can you tell something is still in existence when your not looking at it or otherwise sensorily detecting it"- ie. my bedroom- I assume it exists, but that is a fallacy- I cannot ever prove it does actually exist right now. But, yeah, blah :D

As for the psychedelic experience being more than just nonsense.. in what way do you feel that is true? In a religious context? Please elaborate! I personally think there is definitely a spiritual aspect to psychedelics. They tend to utterly amaze people and get them thinking about life and the world they live in. Psychedelics really do open up the mind in that sense.
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Well, to quote William James "Its all just thought" or more correctly paraphrase him. That feels true, and real- that our world and reality is coloured constantly by our thoughts and feelings, and by learning to steer those things in a positive direction, much healing and joy can be attained. To me, the concept of thought is spiritual in that it comes from I know not where, but influences my life constantly.

Also, the colours!!! :D

I also disregard the DMT dream hypothesis- DMT is stimulating at psychedelic doses, so it just doesn't make sense. Also your point re: not tripping when waking- though, I have woken and briefly had pure geometrical forms instead of furniture etc. around me....I would say acetylcholine is the dream substance. Taking an anticholinergic before bed gives me very vivid and bizarre dreams.

There has been some more recent studies on REM and phases of sleep, and it appears we can dream at all stages of it. Also, dolphins can apparently put one hemisphere of their brain to sleep at a time- now that would be fucking cool. Off topic, but cool %):)
 
thats a really good question and something that i wonder about a lot.

part of it has to do with the stimulation of specialized regions of the brain, eg we have a large portion of the visual cortex devoted to facial recognition, the importance of this is obvious. one of the first things i often notice before full visuals have begun to manifest is an increased tendency to recognize faces in things like crumpled paper or folded fabric. now keep in mind that we have an enormous number of such specialized regions, ones that sharpen edges, group similar objects, fill in blind spots, and assign names. often the things we consider normal are distortions of what is really laying in front of our head. now imagine what would happen if all of these specialized regions were overstimulated...
 
Ya i thought it was a good question too hamhurricane! Its always been something i thought about while/after i have taken psychedelics and its really interesting getting everyones imput.

Does anyone know of any studies or research going on about this subject?
 
swilow said:
Point in question- the moon. I can't touch it but I know its there ;) :) Likewise electricity- I CAN'T touch it or see it, but I know its there. The existence of something isn't dependant on whether its touchable or not. It is determined by the way we perceive. A schizophrenic in the midst of a psychosis will, for all intents and purposes, be experiencing real phenomena- to them.
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You can observe the moons affects on things (light / gravity).. You could put it's existance to the test to determine wether it is real or not.. andddd im sure you'll find out it's real.. same with electricity..

But yes i understand that if what someone is seeing is perceived as real to them then in their reality it is real.. it still doesn't make it real, though.

Hallucinations; They could be drawn around real memories.. real images, real sounds.. but the actual hallucination is just that, a hallucination.

As for someone who said we can't detect gravity with any of our senses.. what do you think our sense of balance is doing? Related note.. why is it that our sense of balance isn't considered one of our senses? It blatently is a sense that detects gravity.. like our eyes detect light, our ears detect sound, etc..

We ALL have a 6th sense.. our sense of balance :|
 
^hey your right man, i never thought about that. Whats up with our sense of balance not being classed as a sense?

Thats fucked up!

looked it up, and found this:
a sense is a faculty to perceive properties of external objects, our sense of balance is internal and thus not a sense.
 
rickolasnice said:
As for someone who said we can't detect gravity with any of our senses.. what do you think our sense of balance is doing? Related note.. why is it that our sense of balance isn't considered one of our senses? It blatently is a sense that detects gravity.. like our eyes detect light, our ears detect sound, etc..

We ALL have a 6th sense.. our sense of balance :|
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And a 7th - our sense of vibration; and an 8th - our sense of temperature... etc etc... we have loads of specialized sensory systems, as would be acknowledged by any psychologist; but for some reason our primary schools still teach that there's only 5, and most people never unlearn that primary school lie. :)

As to the OP's question; blimey, jolly interesting question, with so many aspects to it... I imagine there are biochemical aspects, psychodynamic aspects, psychophysical and all sorts to any thorough answer to it. And I'm afraid I'm not in a position to offer any of them.

moonyham said:
looked it up, and found this:
a sense is a faculty to perceive properties of external objects, our sense of balance is internal and thus not a sense.
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Actually, interoceptive senses (proprioception, vestibular sense, etc) are considered senses within psychology just as much as the exteroceptive ones (vision, audition, vibroception etc), as far as I (a psychologist of perception) am aware. Oh, and anyhow... balance is, as rickolasnice pointed out, detecting gravitons' effect on us, just as vision detects photons' effects on us. So you could say it's still an exteroceptive sense, maybe?

ETA: Regarding the typicality of breathing walls etc, mentioned by the OP, it seems to me that something in common across a lot of the visual and auditory effects of psychedelics is frequency modulation and/or amplitude modulation, with respect to both space and time. Between them, these can explain a lot of the (especially the lower-level) sensory effects of psychedelics. The vocodering and wobbly OEAs of DiPT, the breathing and waving patterns on other psychs, the auditory fluttering noted on some mainly-visual psychs; all could be described in such terms. (But then, perhaps so can everything?) Not that any of this explains why such effects arise, but it could perhaps identify an underlying in-common thing so that a perhaps simpler question - why do psychs effect a frequency modulation of sensory perception? - could be asked.
 
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Related note.. why is it that our sense of balance isn't considered one of our senses? It blatently is a sense that detects gravity..
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No, it doesn't "detect" gravity- our middle ear adjust to its forces so we can maintain balance. If we could detect gravity, wow! :D

Its a bit strange to say we have a 'sense of vibration'- thats our auditory system. We can also feel vibrations in our body as organs can resonate sympathetically, but as sound= vibrations, the lower the frequency of sound, the more its is "felt" as opposed to "heard". A sense of temperature is touch :)

Theres quite a difference between being able to detect something, and our response to it.
 
swilow said:
No, it doesn't "detect" gravity- our middle ear adjust to its forces so we can maintain balance. If we could detect gravity, wow! :D
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You could say the same of vision and photons. We have conscious perceptions of whether we are upright or at an angle, as a result of our middle ear adjusting to the forces of gravity. We have conscious perceptions of whether an object is present in our visual field or not as a result of our retina adjusting to the impacts of photons. :)

Its a bit strange to say we have a 'sense of vibration'- thats our auditory system. We can also feel vibrations in our body as organs can resonate sympathetically, but as sound= vibrations, the lower the frequency of sound, the more its is "felt" as opposed to "heard". A sense of temperature is touch :)
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No, vibration reception is distinct from audition (sure audition detects a certain sort of vibration, so does vision - light-waves - and so does vibration reception: vibrations within a certain range of frequencies not perceived as sound or light). And thermoception is only one of the many distinct senses colloquially and collectively referred to as touch. A sensory system is usually, in psychology, defined by whether there exists a distinct type of neuron for that system, and/or distinct parts of the CNS for dealing with the information from that system. The neurons for detecting vibration, heat, pressure, etc, are all quite distinct from one another; just as the neurons for detecting sound, light and smell are distinct from one another.
 
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swilow said:
No, it doesn't "detect" gravity- our middle ear adjust to its forces so we can maintain balance.
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Therefore.. detecting gravity? :\

swilow said:
Its a bit strange to say we have a 'sense of vibration'- thats our auditory system. We can also feel vibrations in our body as organs can resonate sympathetically, but as sound= vibrations, the lower the frequency of sound, the more its is "felt" as opposed to "heard". A sense of temperature is touch :)

Theres quite a difference between being able to detect something, and our response to it.
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I would have thought temperature was touch also, with vibrations falling into either sound or touch.
 
moonyham said:
looked it up, and found this:
a sense is a faculty to perceive properties of external objects, our sense of balance is internal and thus not a sense.
Click to expand...

I dont quite get this.. surely our sense of balance is coming from an external property? Just because our "organ" (whats the right word for it?) for perceiving gravity is located internally within our bodies.. but then so is our tongue? inside of nose? hammer in our ears??.. Obviously that liquid and hairs we have to keep our balance is getting it's information from outside our bodies.. Gravity.
 
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