whacking shard vs smoking shard difference? or mybe 4mar?

[L3inad]

Lets keep the synth discussion to a minimum and as vague as possible, this thread has quality information and I'd hate to see it closed.

Thanks heaps for your input Ashley. Been wanting a clear answer on that for ages.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

Lets keep the synth discussion to a minimum and as vague as possible, this thread has quality information and I'd hate to see it closed.

Thanks heaps for your input Ashley. Been wanting a clear answer on that for ages.

Yeah got a bit carried away...

 

[L3inad]

There certainly is a decent amount of methamphetamine produced in Australia from phenylacetone/phenyl-2-propanone (P2P), I know this for a fact. But the most common synthesis route used domestically is still the reduction of pseudoephedrine by way of hypophosphorus acid and iodine or less commonly red phosphorus and iodine. d-methylamphetamine is always crystalline, whereas the racemate is a powder, as the l isomer will not crystallize, but forms a white powder.

http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/shulgin/blg/2005/04/ice-crank-speed-methamphetamine.html

"The white powder form has classically been taken orally or injected, whereas the "ice" crystalline form is usually smoked. This product is always the optically active "d" isomer -- efforts to make large crystals from water solutions of the dl-racemic methamphetamine have always failed."

I have a lot of respect for shulgin and his adventures. But just because he couldn't do it doesn't mean its not do-able. That said, I'm sure now that true 50:50 racemic meth would not be our 'ice' crystals. However, I see no reason why a mixture of isomers say 80:20 D:L couldn't crystalise. Such a mix could be achieved when trying to remove the L-isomer from racemic meth, or incorrect use of catalysts during certain synths. Hell, your can re-rock your gear with MSM and a bunch of other stuff. If those cutters can complex with D-Methamphetamine surely some can with L.

From this I'd say its safe to assume that your 'ice' is usually straight D-Meth + cutters, but could still have some L-Meth depending on the production route and choice of cutters.
Freebase meth is probably mostly racemic in Aus, because of precursor availability. But freebase D-Meth does exist.
Racemic meth hcl, would likely be cut down and sold as speed as it is powder form already. Although much of the speed is probably just heavily cut ice 'D-Meth' (or maybe even base...)

Trying to clear this up definitively, I still remember the "my grandma cant tell an amphetamine from methamphetamine" thread from ages back haha. Do people agree with that summary?

 

[Tryptamite]

Why are most 4-mar threads in AusDD? Do you guys see much of it out there? Is PPA/nor ephedrine OTC in Aus?

Just trying to get my head around it. Don't mean to dig up an oldish thread. Also without going into it, to clarify meth would be a much easier synth than 4-mar.

 

[oldirtybizza]

^pseudoephedrine is otc in Aus but only in small amounts and only in combination with other active ingredients, you must provide i.d with purchase and are entered into a database . In NZ it is script only.

 

[Docta]

Why are most 4-mar threads in AusDD? Do you guys see much of it out there? Is PPA/nor ephedrine OTC in Aus?

Just trying to get my head around it. Don't mean to dig up an oldish thread. Also without going into it, to clarify meth would be a much easier synth than 4-mar.

Well PPA is a common vet drug prescribed for incontinence in female dogs. At a 50% aqueous solution its quite simple to recover by evaporation.

Synthesis of 4-Methylaminorex is much the same as any substitution reaction for a substituted phenethylamine, in fact its done in a single reaction vessel so some may say its easier. The problem with the synth is the workup. The separation of the product from the reaction solution is a dead set pain in the ass, Xylene azeotropic distillation over equimolar amounts of Hydrochloric acid then freeze precipitation via solvent stripping with a ketone.

The advantage of 4-MAR is cis isomer's have the same potency so you don't run into the problems of racemic mixtures with separate relative scales of potency.


Little known fact, it was the original post on THE HIVE by Bandil titled: One pot Synthesis of 4-Methylaminorex. That coined the phrase Shake'n'Bake.

Some hack journalist researching a story on clandestine meth labs came Bandil's post and put the term into circulation describing the wrong one pot reaction.

 

[Azron]

Also with the IV roa you recieve a 100% BA

 

[the_ketaman]

I get meth that feels different and lasts different amounts of time all the time. People get all excited with a new batch and think they have 4-mar but honestly, most people wouldn't even know they had it if they got it. I think it's even more rare than people think.

 

[the_ketaman]

Oh and ill add, I've been IV'ing shard for the last while and I've been getting a very different rush from the shard than I do with the "speed" I get. The shard is a lot more relaxing and euphoric and def more of a creeper whereas the other stuff just blows my head off. I do definitely get stuff that feels very different.

I'm frying my brain off ATM and life is good

 

[lovepsychadelics]

4-Mar, in hindsight, does not feel like meth as it's way to euphoric but not as pushy/stimi as meth. Also 4-Mar lasts way longer I had .2 (200 mg but my scales were a little off so may have been a little less, say 190 mg) of 4-Mar and me and my GF were fucked up for 4 days. Never not even the best meth has had me that high for so long from such a small amount. The euphoria faded real quick but the inability to sleep and psychosis started creeping in by half way through day 2 and by day 3 we were fucked up. Had bennies but they did not help much. Way different to MDPV as well as the euphoria lasts for much longer while peeve fades by about the 3 hour mark but the sleeplessness lasts for 16 hours with peeve. 4-Mar is just crazy shit. Dead give away is the shape of the 4-Mar shards, long and thin not at all like regular meth.

Bang on Docta the second image is like the stuff I had my 4 day psycho shit experience on. The euphoria was there for at least 12-20 hours after my partner and I consumed about half of what we had between the two of us. Also noted We both had a about 4 x 5 mg val's at around the 34 hour mark with minimal effect. By day four I resorted to xanax 4mg each and eventually we got some sleep, utter crazy shit. Can see why this was the original "yaba" or "crazy drug" in Thailand, fucking mental. Note we each had around 90-100 mg of 4-MAR. Also very a very rare beast but it pop's it's ugly head up from time to time.

Most meth heads will freak at the duration of the effects but first they will want to hit in a pipe every 30 minutes or so. Once it's all gone they will think it was okish/good until the 48 hour mark with no sleep ticks by and still no crash in sight. Lovely until the psychosis and sleep deprivation start causing hallucinations lol. One meth head I know told me "I hate your drugs they are to much like schizophrenia" This from a guy who used to binge on gear and sleep 3-4 hours max per night for 5-6 days... Best of all he'd call me up when out of meth and ask me if I could shout him any of my "schizophrenia" drugs, fucking tool, obviously I have nothing to do with fuckwits like that anymore. Also the above experience is enough to scare most people strait, that and an ectopic heart beat...

 

[Docta]

4-Mar, in hindsight, ................... Way different to MDPV as well as the euphoria lasts for much longer while peeve fades by about the 3 hour mark but the sleeplessness lasts for 16 hours with peeve. 4-Mar is just crazy shit. Dead give away is the shape of the 4-Mar shards, long and thin not at all like regular meth.

I think that's a great post because is covers about all of what I have ever told anybody whom ever said "this shit really got legs & feel amazing it must be 4-MAR".

Like lovepsychadelics says if you'd had 4-MAR there would be no question in your mind as regard to differentiated effects in comparison between 4-Methylaminorex-hydrochloride and Methamphetamine-hydrochloride. I'll be showing my age a bit here with some of the older what most will think nevermore seen again, therefore out dated information but I think it has some relevance even if the production methods have shifted to the small scale for personal use type one pot method I outlined in post #26.

I would describe say a good smoke of a point (10mg) consumed in session over a period of time, half to one hour. The description of its effectiveness constantly intersecting over a wide range of categories. Somewhere between eating a big hand full of Modafinil but way stronger bordering on amphetamine stimulus best described as an extreme level of wakefulness with an attention to detail and cognitive effects the I would more associate with modern Nootropic smart drugs then a party drug. The euphoria is well undeniably distinctive and can not in any waybe mistaken for Meth. How or in what form people perceive euphoria is kind of subjective so its level of intensity is hard to articulate. I would put it somewhere between a line of the worlds best cocaine a 90mg dose of MDMA and the moment your football team wins the finals holding the cup up in victory. (AFL Go Hawrks)

The duration of 4-MAR is another unmistakable marker, psychostimulant effects are long-lasting and intense. Smoking that point after dinner at the pub before going out to see Dire Straits play I was still going strong at 3-4am coming down around 6-7am. This is I would say one of the blessings and curses out of the same mouth when it come to 4-MAR some times you wont it all to stop but I just keep going. I don't know if I'd say I was fucked up for days as stated by lovepsychadelics, but I can attest the duration of in my case was about 12 hours or so. But keep in mind I had a full meal with not to much alcohol and downed a Valium or two about 7am.

Regarding lovepsychadelics comment on the shape of the 4-Mar crystals, I think we should clarify that a little.

Back in the day when original Yaba/Shabu came out in Thailand the Yaba were the tablet/blocks of 4-MAR and the Shabu was crystal Meth.

With out going into specifics of the synthesis, back in the late '80's early '90's we'd go over on holidays and mail stuff back home. The first methods of production used over there resulted in a racemic dl-trans isomer-4-MAR that instead of coming out as a classic crystalline hydrochloride salt that we recognize today it was a hardened sold amorphous salt. A kind of a non-crystalline salt like the way silica sand can be quartz crystals or glass, which is an amorphous solid. That stuff that looks like chewing gum are the blocks raped up like sweets. The image is the original U4Euh. Yaba pills today have nothing to do with 4-MAR there just junk stims.

http://postimage.org/

The newer methods use mentioned in post #26 results in racemic dl-cis isomer-4-MAR. The less symmetrical (more polar) cis isomer didn't have the hygroscopic problems of the trans isomer so after gassing it can be recrystallized. Unlike the old stuff it didn't need to be set on the oven or left out in the sun to solidify. The crystals from mentioned by lovepsychadelics are spot on correct they do look like rice shaped needles and can not grow very large on account of there conformations and relative stability along with a hole load of other boring chemistry shit.

What maters is whether you some how get the pure cis-(4S,5R) 4-MAR or the racemic dl-cis 4-MAR the crystals will be: Long, thin irregular rods, thin needles, some in feather-combs or possibly Rods in rosettes, sheaves, and bundles. You will never get big shardie crystals like we see with meth that is just physically impossible. The stock standard thin irregular rods can be seen in the image below.


http://postimage.org/



Citations for the Microcrystalline tests performed on the hydrochloride salts with four possible stereoisomers (trans-(4R,5R), trans-(4S,5S), cis-(4R,5S) and cis-(4R,5S)), and two racemates (dl-cis and dl-trans).

Clarke, E. G. C., Isolation and Identification of Drugs, Pharmaceutical Press, London, 1969, pp. 135-141.
Fulton, C. C., Modern Microcrystal Tests for Drugs, Wiley-Interscience, New York, 1969.