whacking shard vs smoking shard difference? or mybe 4mar?

[Z3R0S]

my mate got a ball of shard not long ago paying the usual, the rocks looked good, didnt smell, looked like proper shard. got home chucked a rock in the pippa and smashed it, not really much of a rush just a steady lift, smashed a fair bit more still not much but could defintly feel it, kept him up all night not charging but feeling decent. Next day called the person asking for his money bak then decided to snort a line... the line smashed him pretty bad but no intial headrush or nothing except about half and hour later then felt very very euphoric and pumped and thought it was decent stuff. is it possible it was whacking shard and not smoking stuff cause i kno sometimes whacking one doesnt work if puffed? he doesnt whack so i dont kno. also is 4-mer 'ice' much cheaper in aus? cause i know its fuk loads easier to make then proper shard(crystal meth) i dont need a price just want to know if its alot cheaper and the quality of it.. cheers

 

[the_ketaman]

This will get much more replies in the Meth Discussion thread. But even though yes there is meth than cant be smoked but can be shot, there is no such thing as shooters meth and smokers meth. There are different isomers, the dexro and the levo isomer, and while I have very little knowledge on what im talking about most meth is a mix of the two which is what racemic meth is but what we want is the dextro isomer or at least a higher percent of dextro than levo if its racemic, thats the stuff that gives the amazing euphoria.

So what im guessing is you got a bach with mostly the levo isomer and its just tweaking you out with not much of any euphoria. You might want to search about it yourself, theres plenty of info in BL and the net because I myself know very little about it. I just know that what us IV'ers are after is what is refferred to "ketone" meth which im not quite sure what it is but im gussing its meth with a higher ratio of dextro isomer meth. I just had a shot today and experienced amazing euphoria and I think its due to it being dextro. Same with smoking though, when its crystal I prefer to smoke and the good stuff is the stuff that gives you the rushes and good feelings, not just a tweaky feeling like the levo stuff...... Maybe im completely out of line but thats how I understand it currently. Please correct me if im wrong

 

[footscrazy]

Racemic meth, you're right, is l-meth and d-meth together; that's often what 'speed' or 'base' is. 'Shards' are usually just d-meth, because a d-meth only product will crystallise, but it's very difficult to crystallise racemic meth. Ketone meth is produced from specific precursors and results in racemic meth. This isn't desirable for most people, IV users or not, because it only contains 50% d-meth. D-meth is the isomer most people enjoy, it's much more psychoactive, and is responsible for the familiar euphoria of meth. Some people find the l isomer is active, but much less so, and is usually attributed to the 'body load'.

 

[Z3R0S]

true man cheers for the reply ay

 

[L3inad]

Racemic meth, you're right, is l-meth and d-meth together; that's often what 'speed' or 'base' is. 'Shards' are usually just d-meth, because a d-meth only product will crystallise, but it's very difficult to crystallise racemic meth. Ketone meth is produced from specific precursors and results in racemic meth. This isn't desirable for most people, IV users or not, because it only contains 50% d-meth. D-meth is the isomer most people enjoy, it's much more psychoactive, and is responsible for the familiar euphoria of meth. Some people find the l isomer is active, but much less so, and is usually attributed to the 'body load'.

Most pharmacodynamic studies of amphetamine isomer activity tend to agree that levo-amphetamine has little to no activity. From memory the same applies to methylamphetamine. Hence when we see these drugs used in medicine, ie. adhd medications, they're always in the form of the dextro isomer. Examples being dexies (dextroampetamine) and Desoxyn (d-methylamphetamine). This is because the levo-isomer is seen to have no real/desirable activity for either recreational or medicinal purposes.

Although I always thought that most meth (shards, ice whatever) was usually racemic. From memory most conventional synths yield racemic methamphetamine hcl. True d-methyl amphetamine would only be achieved with pharmaceutical grade labs, however that said more skilled cooks could probably yield better D:L ratios but still with some levo-methamphetamine present.

 

[ayjay]

Although I always thought that most meth (shards, ice whatever) was usually racemic. From memory most conventional synths yield racemic methamphetamine hcl. True d-methyl amphetamine would only be achieved with pharmaceutical grade labs, however that said more skilled cooks could probably yield better D:L ratios but still with some levo-methamphetamine present.

Actually pretty sure most illegal synths produce d-meth (eg here

You could check on the ADD forum - but I think the pseudo cook always ends up with d-meth.

I really don't think you can take the qualitative effects of a particular batch and make any serious conclusions as to d- versus racemic meth - it all comes down to dose and impurities, plus set and setting of course - in the vast majority of cases

 

[L3inad]

^ I conveniently just had a lecture today which went over stereo-isomers and how one might produce strictly one isomer rather than racemic. This wasnt applied directly to methylamphetamine, but dextro/levo amphetamine were used as examples. And the presence of specific enzymes (catalysts) are needed, to yield a specific isomer.

I found the bit in the article which claims that most clan labs produce d -methamphetamine. However, as this is a USA government article I'll take it with a grain of salt...

But they're likely correct that most aim to yield the d-isomer, but realistically - your average cook is probably just going to end up with something maybe like 70:30 D:L ratio for example. While not true d-methamphetamine thats still not racemic (50:50 ratio) so I probably was wrong in my first comment.
Anyone with more info wish to chip in? I'm interested now..

EDIT::
A little research indicates that ketone produced meth seems to be racemic. So thats one at least... But as footsy said earlier it is definitely different. OP Z3R0S might wanna read this thread - http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/archive/index.php/t-280571.html
Specifically the meth substitutes part, as regardless of whether your gear is racemic or d-meth the effects/bioavailability should be consistent across ROA's.

 

[Azron]

the most popular (imo) is the P2P method, but is usually considered a racemic mix, dunno why its so popular?

 

[the_ketaman]

Hmm so you guys are saying you do get shards that are a mix of the isomers but not technically racemic as racemic is 50%/50%? Or is all shard D-Meth? Is this right or do I have it all wrong.

I mostly use "base" meth, shards are very rare around here, so what im getting is racemic i.e 50-50? Im confused as I dont have much knowledge in this area but I always wondered why some batches of base felt more euphoric than others even though other batches felt stronger but not more euphoric. Sometimes id feel amazing off a tiny bit of stuff(I do IV, though definitely not an advocator) and other times id take a ton and not feel the same euphoria. Ice always felt euphoric to me, ive always enjoyed it much more than this "base" crap but as I said, shard is not common in my circle at all so I dont use it.

Meth chemistry has always intruiged me, im sure many of you are having chuckle as I know its extremely basic but im still interested. Even though id never, ever attempt a cook, too scared of being blown up

 

[Ashley]

the most popular (imo) is the P2P method, but is usually considered a racemic mix, dunno why its so popular?

Because there is no need for ephedrine when you go via phenyl-2-propanone.

A.

 

[Azron]

Because there is no need for ephedrine when you go via phenyl-2-propanone.

A.

True but "Hisenbergs" Meth is P2P and sposed to be the best in the world.... or do I just watch to much tv...

 

[L3inad]

Hmm so you guys are saying you do get shards that are a mix of the isomers but not technically racemic as racemic is 50%/50%? Or is all shard D-Meth? Is this right or do I have it all wrong.

I mostly use "base" meth, shards are very rare around here, so what im getting is racemic i.e 50-50? Im confused as I dont have much knowledge in this area but I always wondered why some batches of base felt more euphoric than others even though other batches felt stronger but not more euphoric. Sometimes id feel amazing off a tiny bit of stuff(I do IV, though definitely not an advocator) and other times id take a ton and not feel the same euphoria. Ice always felt euphoric to me, ive always enjoyed it much more than this "base" crap but as I said, shard is not common in my circle at all so I dont use it.

Meth chemistry has always intruiged me, im sure many of you are having chuckle as I know its extremely basic but im still interested. Even though id never, ever attempt a cook, too scared of being blown up

'base' just refers to methamphetamine without the traditional hcl base. Your 'ice' be it D or racemic, is methamphetamine hcl which is why it forms pretty crystals rather than the gluggy (liquid even) base meth. I dont see any reason why base meth couldn't be the D isomer, but again it would depend on the production route and skill of the cook.

 

[footscrazy]

^ Yeah, 'base' is meant to refer to freebase as opposed to the salt form (which in the case of meth is usually hcl), but in Aus for the most part it's just a marketing ploy to make shitty, impure meth hcl sound better. Most of what is called 'base' meth in Aus isn't actually freebase, it's meth hcl, just with heaps of impurities and cutters, which is why it can't crystallise.

 

[Biscuit]

My understanding is that many synths use d-ephedrine or d-pseudoephedrine, which will make just d-methylamphetamine. I am not sure how common the D only precursors are as compared to DL precursors. It is not clear to me whether the mega overseas labs, which I still suspect are responsible for much of the quality crystal methylamphetamine in the country, use P2P or ephedrine/pseudoephedrine as precursors. If it is the latter then I suspect they would source only D precursors.

In ordinary conditions, a 50:50 D:L racemic mixture will be produced in the production of methylamphetamine from P2P.

Does anyone know for sure that crystals cannot be produced from the racemate? Where have you seen this and are there any references available? I actually don't see why it wouldn't crystallise, it is just that at the molecular level the three dimensional crystalline structure would look different.

 

[Ashley]

My understanding is that many synths use d-ephedrine or d-pseudoephedrine, which will make just d-methylamphetamine. I am not sure how common the D only precursors are as compared to DL precursors. It is not clear to me whether the mega overseas labs, which I still suspect are responsible for much of the quality crystal methylamphetamine in the country, use P2P or ephedrine/pseudoephedrine as precursors. If it is the latter then I suspect they would source only D precursors.

In ordinary conditions, a 50:50 D:L racemic mixture will be produced in the production of methylamphetamine from P2P.

Does anyone know for sure that crystals cannot be produced from the racemate? Where have you seen this and are there any references available? I actually don't see why it wouldn't crystallise, it is just that at the molecular level the three dimensional crystalline structure would look different.

There certainly is a decent amount of methamphetamine produced in Australia from phenylacetone/phenyl-2-propanone (P2P), I know this for a fact. But the most common synthesis route used domestically is still the reduction of pseudoephedrine by way of hypophosphorus acid and iodine or less commonly red phosphorus and iodine. d-methylamphetamine is always crystalline, whereas the racemate is a powder, as the l isomer will not crystallize, but forms a white powder.

http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/shulgin/blg/2005/04/ice-crank-speed-methamphetamine.html

The white powder form has classically been taken orally or injected, whereas the "ice" crystalline form is usually smoked. This product is always the optically active "d" isomer -- efforts to make large crystals from water solutions of the dl-racemic methamphetamine have always failed.

 

[Biscuit]

Thanks Ashley. That answers that question which I was somewhat lazy about solving for myself! That would suggest that crystalline d-meth is almost always produced from ephedrine or pseudoephedrine. I cannot see them making it from P2P and then separating out the D from the L later.

NH3 liquid and sodium or lithium reduction is very common in WA.

 

[Ashley]

Thanks Ashley. That answers that question which I was somewhat lazy about solving for myself! That would suggest that crystalline d-meth is almost always produced from ephedrine or pseudoephedrine. I cannot see them making it from P2P and then separating out the D from the L later.

D-methamphetamine will always be produced when reduced from ephedrine or pseudoephedrine. The stereoisomers aren't effected by way of a reduction, thus they stay the same.

I'll have a chat to a couple of my invisible friends, as I know they definitely produce crystal methamphetamine (ice) from phenyl-2-propanone, obviously the d isomer, as the l will not crystallise. How? I'm not sure. I'll get back to you if you're interested.

NH3 liquid and sodium or lithium reduction is very common in WA.

Really? I would avoid working with sodium or lithium if at all possible. Recipe for disaster.

I'd say in the future you will see more and more people producing their own ephedrine, considering how hard pseudo is to come by these days.

A.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

Umm, yes reacting lithium/sodium in an anhydrogenous liquid such as liquid amonia at -35 degrees, aka Birch reduction, may cause some risk of fire hazard. Especially if your a dumb ass smoking a cigarette while watching your pressure/gas generator (usually a heap of fertilizer and... other bits in an old plastic petrol container running into some other bits and condensing in dry ice). Amonia is flamable at around 15% atmospheric concentration (from memory). 4-MAR is not a fuck load easier to make than meth although to answer your question it could be 4-MAR. I find with 4-MAR smoked it's like you just smoked the best cleanest meth ever... it's only after 3-4 days of being awake off just two points you start to question WTF did I smoke ??? This was the last time I used ice for obvious reasons. It's can be made with a reaction of sodium cyanide and bromine creating cyanogen bromide... thanks WIKI. That sounds so much safer and easier to make than meth. The chemicals/precursors used however may be far easier to source in Australia vs meth. As a result we now get U4RIA being sold as meth despite U4RIA being the original "ice". All those news stories of crazy Americans being chased down freeways by 30 police cars and a dozen or so helicopters from the 90's ring any bells. Yes that was what happened when someone started a "ice" binge but found out that maybe it was not meth after staying awake for 6 days, hallucinating and getting chased by 30 police cars on the wrong side of the freeway ... Very morish just can't stop hitting the pipe. Also noticed a bit more vasoconstriction than what meth would have given me. The shape/colour etc. of the shards are a dead give away. Erowid has nice pictures of 4-MAR shards for the curious. Stay away the name is a lie, a delicious euphoric lie... that fades to be replaced by mania (trust me the euphoria is NOT there on day 4 but on day 1 it's fucking orgasmic!), craving inducing, compulsive redose causing demon from the 7th circle of hell. If that sounds like fun however just walk or fly (in your 4-MAR induced delusional state anything is possible, including self mutilation ie picking,scratching or thinking a mole is a boil and removing it with a knife) just please don't drive... Off topic a little MPA is quite a nice stim, no euphoria just tweeking and stimulated and posting non-stop on BL.

 

[Ashley]

^ I don't think many, if any cooks/chemists synthesize 4-methylaminorex using cyanogen bromide (YUCK!) anymore. Potassium cyanate, is the preferred alternative nowadays, from what I gather.

A.

 

[lovepsychadelics]

Cheers. That would make it a hell of a lot safer and it'd be much easier to obtain the precursors than meth. Potasium carbonate and urea.