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Weird, not technically sourcing question. (Ketamine)

wizardknight17

wizardknight17

Bluelighter
Joined
Sep 30, 2017
Messages
79
Ok. Let me see if I can clearly translate what I'm trying to ask. Sorry if this is confusing.

I've read a lot into ketamine and it's effect on rewiring the brain to help with severe, treatment resistant depression. (Along with many other things but that's a discussion for another time)

Leaving out specific possible trigger details let's just say I 100% quality and have for 20+years now.

I've tried probably 25-30 depression meds since age 11. I've even tried antipsychotics and bipolar medications.

That being said, my question is this... wouldn't helpful sourcing with how to find ketamine actually in itself be harm reduction? Or is it viewed since some doctors will do it for a few thousand cash for 6 sessions over 3 weeks and $500ish for a booster every time that it can be acquired "legally" so sourcing isn't allowed?

Lastly, I am currently looking to find it but haven't had much luck yet. I don't have $3,000 or even$500 for the first treatment to see if it works at all. But my point for this post is more about a direct answer to this question...

If I've had multiple "attempts" before and never see the light at the end of the tunnel after 20+ years then wouldn't sourcing for this specific thing (or possibly psychedelics in general) actually be harm reduction?
 
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Pete556 said:
SORRY WE DONT DO THAT HERE.
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Thanks for the quick reply but Please read post again. I'm completely aware there is no sourcing allowed. I'm simply looking for a personal perspective of others.

Yes or no. Would it be harm reduction to allow sourcing for this?
ETA: and why do you think so?
 
This is an interesting question. But the sourcing rule would predominate in this instance. The same question has come up for ibogaine and ayahuasca clinics. They're legal in some countries and in a way, it could definitely be considered harm reduction by allowing discussion of what clinics are good and what clinics are bad. However, we don't allow sourcing for any other drugs, even if they're legal (ie, places to get kratom, places to get phenibut, etc; though google can do a good job with the legal stuff, we don't want it associated with our site directly). We only allow sourcing of harm reduction materials such as scales, wheel filters, stuff like that.

Additionally, when you're talking about clinics, if we allow sourcing, it opens up advertising opportunities for clinics/providers and we don't want that. So, that's another reason we don't allow it even though it's legal, but it's just an additional reason, the main reason is the first one I described.

The most important reason why we're so strict against sourcing here, even though I agree that f9or some people and in some instances, being able to find these things would be good harm reduction, is because we are a very visible source of information on drugs, and respected, and we are partnered with MAPS, and it is important that we draw a firm line in the sand so we're not seen as a place where people go to find drugs.

I'll leave this open for discussion with a slight edit to the OP.
 
Shadowmeister said:
This is an interesting question. But the sourcing rule would predominate in this instance. The same question has come up for ibogaine and ayahuasca clinics. They're legal in some countries and in a way, it could definitely be considered harm reduction by allowing discussion of what clinics are good and what clinics are bad. However, we don't allow sourcing for any other drugs, even if they're legal (ie, places to get kratom, places to get phenibut, etc; though google can do a good job with the legal stuff, we don't want it associated with our site directly). We only allow sourcing of harm reduction materials such as scales, wheel filters, stuff like that.

Additionally, when you're talking about clinics, if we allow sourcing, it opens up advertising opportunities for clinics/providers and we don't want that. So, that's another reason we don't allow it even though it's legal, but it's just an additional reason, the main reason is the first one I described.

The most important reason why we're so strict against sourcing here, even though I agree that f9or some people and in some instances, being able to find these things would be good harm reduction, is because we are a very visible source of information on drugs, and respected, and we are partnered with MAPS, and it is important that we draw a firm line in the sand so we're not seen as a place where people go to find drugs.

I'll leave this open for discussion with a slight edit to the OP.
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That is perfect. Exactly what I was asking for. Even though I said it as a joke I understand the edit. I would still like to hear other opinions about this as well and even feel free to throw ibogaine and ayahuasca in there as I've studied these as well.

As a little side point, I most likely could source ketamine without help but due to my past it's a road I'm really not comfortable traveling down.

Lastly, I also understand that even though there's tons of info on how low dose ketamine has basically cured many people, lots of people could still be trying to source for nothing other than recreational K-holes. I really just wanted to see how others felt about the subject. :)
 
One thing to consider is that in these trials, the ketamine was administered along with a shrink to help guide the experience. Ketamine does a lot, but you still have to work through your problems.
 
mattj3280 said:
One thing to consider is that in these trials, the ketamine was administered along with a shrink to help guide the experience. Ketamine does a lot, but you still have to work through your problems.
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Actually, it's my understanding that therapy is not generally part of the clinical use of ketamine for depression. While there are widely varying views of appropriate levels of therapist involvement in the therapeutic use of psilocybin and MDMA (veggie, during, and after,) ketamine has so far been viewed more or less as a conventional, mechanistic psychiatric intervention. That's to say, it's seen by most as a drug and not a potentiator of psychotherapy. I've been told that a lot of clinicians would like to use the lowest possible effective dose to minimize the headspace change, which they see as an undesirable side effect.

One consideration to factor into the sourcing/harm reduction question is that ketamine is for many an addictive drug. While it's infuriating that a cheap medication is being priced at levels that prevent people that need it from accessing it, relegating access to supervised use *might* be a good move from a public health standpoint. After all, it's not an innocuous drug--a significant percentage of users experience lasting organ damage from its use, suggesting that careful monitoring should be a part of its medical use.
 
I have studied psychedelic psychotherapies for a couple years and there is for sure a developing model with ketamine assisted psychotherapy. There absolutely needs to be a human connection related to creating the right set and setting with someone you trust to trip sit. It's going to give you the optimal experience and you will be safe and held. ALSO there are drugs you may be on that interfere or are counter indicated with the K. Like benzos and some others. So, getting the best consultation is worth the money. This is your recovery from treatment resistant depression! It's important you get the best care. There are a lot of amazing clinics that are run by psychiatrists who use trained clinicians to sit with you the entire time and it's a calm, peaceful experience-- the trance state an important element to creating new pathways in your brain. It also does matter ALOT that the ketamine is pure and safe. Good luck!
 
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A reminder that it is against the rules to mention specific ketamine clinics on Bluelight... please see my earlier post for the reasons why. I'm sure resources exist for discussing specific clinics but they do not exist on Bluelight.
 
Pfafffed said:
Actually, it's my understanding that therapy is not generally part of the clinical use of ketamine for depression. While there are widely varying views of appropriate levels of therapist involvement in the therapeutic use of psilocybin and MDMA (veggie, during, and after,) ketamine has so far been viewed more or less as a conventional, mechanistic psychiatric intervention. That's to say, it's seen by most as a drug and not a potentiator of psychotherapy. I've been told that a lot of clinicians would like to use the lowest possible effective dose to minimize the headspace change, which they see as an undesirable side effect.

One consideration to factor into the sourcing/harm reduction question is that ketamine is for many an addictive drug. While it's infuriating that a cheap medication is being priced at levels that prevent people that need it from accessing it, relegating access to supervised use *might* be a good move from a public health standpoint. After all, it's not an innocuous drug--a significant percentage of users experience lasting organ damage from its use, suggesting that careful monitoring should be a part of its medical use.
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Late reply - wanted to follow up.

It's interesting you mentioned this, when a voice for "ketamine therapy" posts on BL or other forums, the explanation for high fees with infusions is due to the integrated therapy post-infusion - which is why I mentioned this.

I've never participated in clinical ketamine infusions but I've had my fair share of ketamine and attempted, in the past, to use it for medical benefit.

I agree, ketamine by itself is a very addictive drug. It's been available widely to my circle since pre-2000s and among it there is varied opinion. If new to the drug there appears to be anti-depressant/afterglow effects, but I've had the same experience with opiods like heroin or fentanyl*.

I notice that most who begin to use it for 'anti-depressant' effects slowly move into regular usage with little awareness due to lack of physical withdrawal symptoms. Any user of low doses I've known has slowly crept into increased/more regular dosage. I disagree that the price tag is a good move. It's a very accessible drug and should a patient gain interest and be unable to afford, they will surely go black market. We've had the same scenario with oxycontin/heroin, we should learn from our mistakes and realize that price tags doesn't stop addicts acquiring via other markets. We shouldn't fill pockets of clinicians for sake of 'harm-reduction' especially if there is no therapy offered. It's pretty easy to find a pure drug, test it, dissolve it in a liquid and IM/IV. Introducing a needle to a user also brings other risks as opposed to alternative methods of administration.

I think it should be regulated but not with the same price tag.

* On a side note: MXE produced an even better afterglow which lasted days. I think more research into MXE as a chemical for medical use would prove great results, however the duration is an issue and since it is similar to mushrooms I feel 4-HO-DMT or more traditional routes would be a better option. I struggle to retain any clarity/insight from the khole once the ketamine wears off. MXE felt more influential.
 
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To me Ketamine is not addictive but does cause me to dose once per day at slowly increasing dosages trying to get into the K hole every time.
But I always buy small amounts of 1 or 2 grams and when I run out I don't buy it again for weeks or months.
No cravings or withdrawals, just miss it for a few days but like an awesome type of cake that you can't get unless your grandma bakes it for you kind of thing, not like running out of speed and for a few days you can't go to work or talk to friends.
 
It's interesting how different we are. For instance, I feel the same way about nicotine. I've smoked about two packs a year for twenty or so years and never had a craving
 
Pfafffed said:
It's interesting how different we are. For instance, I feel the same way about nicotine. I've smoked about two packs a year for twenty or so years and never had a craving
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That's remarkable, I think most would eventually pick up the habit way before doing that for 20 years.
I think it might be that I only do K-Holes, they are pleasurable but there's also a strong trip component to it and when I am sober I feel like I have been on holiday for a few days every time.
 
Pfafffed said:
Actually, it's my understanding that therapy is not generally part of the clinical use of ketamine for depression.
Click to expand...

good luck getting K for depression if you don't have a long history of being in therapy.
 
Phobos said:
I think it might be that I only do K-Holes, they are pleasurable but there's also a strong trip component to it and when I am sober I feel like I have been on holiday for a few days every time.
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That's exactly how I started out using ketamine. It took many years for me to get to where I am, mainly due to the india ket drought a few years back that resulted in a massive price increase and quality decrease. But I am 'recovering' from 2-3 years IM'ing so much so that it had a real negative impact on my life - but definitely not as bad as heroin would. Apart from psychedelics its pretty much the only drug I do as I still find myself looking a khole every few weeks or month or two and I don't crave stimulants or anything anymore.

I imagine if you're dosing by insufflation that it's easy to space out doses, but again I started out dosing this way for many years before tolerance took over and the desire for the 'holiday' became more frequent. I was also trying to avoid any damage to nostrils or stomach/k cramps and IM is the best route for a khole consistently.

It was a slow spiral but ketamine is definitely an extremely addictive drug. There's too many cases of abuse in the UK and bladder damage to ignore - in many cases insufflation only no needles. Festivals like Boomtown are even going as far to only be anti-ketamine but open to other substances, a lot of their goers being from Bristol which is the 'ket capital'. If you're only buying a gram or two at a time that could avoid any issues - when I started out it was common to buy 7/10/25/50g and it was basically medical grade. It's wishful thinking to say it's not addictive. There is no physical withdrawal - unless using lots, but there is a real mental pull with the drug that builds up over time. Unless you have plans to stop your tolerance will only increase and so will the amount you use as the afterglows become less frequent.
 
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Well, Ketamine will increase Dopamine levels significantly, obviously that's gonna create psychological addiction, plus it seems to me that the anaesthetic effects are the quicker fade away with tolerance so the more one consumes the more the effect profile becomes less psychedelic and more prone to causing addiction.
 
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