Week long MDMA comedown...please help ):

[PJ2]

India,

Just FYI, you have the classic symptoms of a long-term comedown. In the beginning, I could barely handle going into stores bc of the amount of sensory overload, anxiety, and detachment I felt. I consider that to be the "acute" phase, which is where you are still. That is when I couldn't sleep at all, had trouble thinking of words, suffered from headaches all day, and had major anxiety just to name the major symptoms. Without an old prescription I found for Xanax, I would have probably gone to the ER at some point.

Everyone is different, but I'd imagine you are looking to be in that same phase for another couple of weeks and you will gradually feel better day to day. All your symptoms will lessen and some will disappear. That doesn't mean there won't be lingering effects that can last for months or even a year or so. I can go days now feeling 100% or pretty damn close to it to where I don't think about this whole ordeal and then I'll have a day that is not so great. But even then, I'm still functional whereas not that long ago I was downright sick.

As far as vitamins go, there is nothing wrong with Vitamin C, but that would probably be near the bottom of the list in terms of importance to helping you now in my estimation. I would definitely take a Fish oil, B-6, 5-HTP, and a brain food (I'm currently taking something called Neuro Optimizer). In the acute state you are in, any of these will be beneficial. Basically, what you are trying to do is provide your brain with the chemicals necessary to heal itself. I took a different "brain food" vitamin during my acute phase when I was close to going to the hospital and I absolutely could not sleep. Within 10 minutes, my head started to literally tingle, I felt relaxed and I was out like a light. I slept for like 12 hours straight. That was the beginning of starting to feel less sick and working towards recovery for me. It wasn't a miracle cure, but it helped.

 

[ScaredFirstTimer]

rphilly72, nice general advice there, but you should be careful about recommending 5-HTP as a supplement. For many comedown-sufferers 5-HTP actually increase symptoms when taken, for instance both me and Delfin have gotten very scary anxiety ridden out of body experiences after taking it, and there are many users that have reported an acute worsening of symptoms after taking 5-HTP. The main reason to stay away from it though is because it may deplete certain enzymes leading to depletion and imbalance of other neutoransmitters, mostly dopamine.

Improperly balanced administration of serotonin and dopamine precursors (Figures 1 and ​and2)2) leads to decreased efficacy and increased incidence of side effects. Most importantly, if only one precursor of the serotonin and dopamine system is administered or it is administered in a manner that dominates the other system (either serotonin or dopamine) in synthesis, metabolism and transport, neurotransmitter depletion of the dominated system will occur.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3415362/

I actually found some other very easy to read research about it earlier, gonna try to dig that up again.
I'm happy that it seemingly works for you, but I would advice you to not take 5-HTP indefinitely.

About Vitamin C: I think it is a beneficial and important vitamin to take because of its antioxidant properties.

 

[JWills20]

rphilly72, nice general advice there, but you should be careful about recommending 5-HTP as a supplement. For many comedown-sufferers 5-HTP actually increase symptoms when taken, for instance both me and Delfin have gotten very scary anxiety ridden out of body experiences after taking it, and there are many users that have reported an acute worsening of symptoms after taking 5-HTP. The main reason to stay away from it though is because it may deplete certain enzymes leading to depletion and imbalance of other neutoransmitters, mostly dopamine.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3415362/

I actually found some other very easy to read research about it earlier, gonna try to dig that up again.
I'm happy that it seemingly works for you, but I would advice you to not take 5-HTP indefinitely.

About Vitamin C: I think it is a beneficial and important vitamin to take because of its antioxidant properties.

This is the sort of shit you should avoid. Reading loads of science just causes more problems that it actually solves IMO. As long as you're eating a reasonably diet, your monoamine precursors will be relatively balanced. I'd go out on a limb and say that reasonable doses of 5-HTP (50-100mg) aren't really going to change that at all. While you only provided that quote from the study, I'd also assume that by improperly balanced they mean extremely imbalanced (like 90% of all dietary uptake being tryptophan or L-tyrosine, respectively). Like they say, it has to dominate the other system. I'd imagine that in order to 'dominate the system' you'd need very high doses of either 5-HTP or a dopamine pre-cursor.

So, in reality your advice to not take 5-HTP is just not beneficial and creates irrational fear. I'm not saying 5-HTP is some miracle supplement, I'm just saying it doesn't really deserve the negative comments people give it. By all means, don't start taking 500mg of 5-HTP a day, but it's unlikely that 50-100-150mg is likely to cause monoamine imbalance. Do the researchers discuss what amounts they would expect to cause the imbalance? I cba reading the whole article (I'm meant to be researching and writing an essay as it is... haha).

 

[ScaredFirstTimer]

This is the sort of shit you should avoid. Reading loads of science just causes more problems that it actually solves IMO.

Well, the reason I started reading about it is obviously because of the correlation I saw of an acute increase of my symptoms each time I had taken 5-HTP. After checking BL, I saw that a couple of other people suffering from a MDMA induced "comedown" had also noticed this pattern. I'm not saying that the increase in symptoms caused by 5-HTP acutely has something to do with enzyme depletion, it is just another, and maybe more important thing to notice when we are talking about giving relief or possibly treating long-term symptoms.

So, there is a few anecdotal reports stating that 5-HTP used while suffering from MDMA induced long-term problems can impact negatively. Maybe there is as many reports stating a positive impact? I doubt it, but let's assume that it is true. Even if the probability of it giving you some relief is 50%, I would not recommend every person with long-term symptoms from MDMA use to take 5-HTP.

As long as you're eating a reasonably diet, your monoamine precursors will be relatively balanced.

Yes, so what is the point of introducing more of a certain precursor in the long term? If my understanding is correct, 5-HTP is thought to be beneficial very shortly (a few days) after taking MDMA because it bypasses the enzyme (TPH?) needed to synthesize 5-HTP from L-tryptophan. Can you explain why it would be beneficial to supplement with 5-HTP for someone suffering from long-term damage induced by MDMA?

BTW: I'll dig up that research article. I'm almost positive that they are talking about typical supplemental doses from 50 - 200mg. The research was based on the influx of people taking the supplement, so I would guess that it is based on typical doses.

 

[thejibberman]

It sounds like what I have and it's horrible, I've been in this "comedown" for a month and a half and god, it's gotten better, but it's still driving me mad. The light headedness and dizziness has disappeared for me, however I still feel very anxious throughout the whole day causing me to feel a little bit depressed. The sad thing is, I only had probably about 100mg. Really hope you get well soon.

 

[PJ2]

I don't know what to tell you ScaredFirstTimer. It's a chemical used in making Seratonin. Why do you think it is so popular within the MDMA community? If your brain doesn't need to make more Seratonin, it doesn't have to, but everyone is different. Plus, there is no problem with extended use or no more than taking Vitamin C unless you are going to take SSRI's. Which reminds me, I never said don't take Vitamin C. It's just not the most important supplement you can take when dealing with these issues in my opinion. I keep stressing the things that your brain uses to work properly and possibly heal. Vitamin C doesn't really fall into that category.

 

[India111]

Wow, seems there's been quite the debate since i was last on here! I'm currently taking fish oil, vitamin b-12 and vitamin c. I decided not to go the 5htp route, not because i believe it's bad but because i am making slow but steady improvements and at this stage I'm terrified of taking anything that has the potential to make me worse. It could help but i don't know for sure and as you can imagine the paranoia surrounding taking certain stuff for me is quite high given what I'm going through! Like i said i am improving slowly but surely, my sickness has basically completely gone, my appetite is back with a vengance and i did sleep a bit better last night. Just need to get rid of the horrible dr/dp and head pressure. I'm starting to think that what I'm actually experiencing is just a constant low level migraine that's causing the dr/dp, as i said these are the same symptoms i used to have in that 30 min warning period before the bad pain came when i used to get migraines as a kid (sensitivity to light, pressure behind eye, dp/dr, frontal head pressure). The only difference is it's constant and not dehabiliting, I can continue with my daily life, it's just not the 'same'. I did get a bit upset and frustrated yesterday when watching Sherlock, it used to be one of my favourite shows but i found it hard to follow and the camera kept cutting too quickly for me. I think I'll stick to something a bit easier for now!

Btw for anyone with head pains of any sort i recommend an Indian head massage if you're willing to splash out a bit, it didn't make my symptoms disappear but it did help and was super relaxing, plus my shoulders and head smelt really nice think I'll book another one after my next uni deadline

 

[JWills20]

First of all, I just want to say I don't mean any offense nor do I want to come across as if I know it all. I realize there's probably a lot of things you unfortunate guys go through that I will never begin to understand without experiencing them myself. But onto your post:

Well, the reason I started reading about it is obviously because of the correlation I saw of an acute increase of my symptoms each time I had taken 5-HTP.

The problem with reading science is that it can be hard to interpret the real word meaning, or understand the whole picture, when you're not an expert in that respective field. I personally feel that reading negative science can have a strong anxiety effect when you are already anxious about what's happening to you. Because science is viewed as being objective, unbiased and, while I hate this word, the 'truth' it can really evoke anxiety when you try to apply it to yourself. Just an anecdote from myself, when I first started taking MDMA i'd consume about 3-4 litres of water over an evening because I'd read 'science' (and also the general perception, but that meant less to me than the science did) saying that I must stay hydrated and drink lots of water. As a result, I'd feel anxious if I didn't have a bottle of water with me at all times when I reality I would have been totally fine. It also resulted in me becoming pretty overhydrated, as I'd have to pee like 7-8 times in the space only 1-2 hours once I'd come down. We'd literally be stopping at every service station on the way home just so I could take a pee. I'm not sure who was more irritated, me or my friend haha. But anyway, the point is that over-compensatory advice is not Harm Reduction. I am much more comfortable now only drinking 1-2 bottles of water over an evening, and only needing to pee as you would usually.

After checking BL, I saw that a couple of other people suffering from a MDMA induced "comedown" had also noticed this pattern. I'm not saying that the increase in symptoms caused by 5-HTP acutely has something to do with enzyme depletion, it is just another, and maybe more important thing to notice when we are talking about giving relief or possibly treating long-term symptoms. So, there is a few anecdotal reports stating that 5-HTP used while suffering from MDMA induced long-term problems can impact negatively.

I'm not saying you're wrong about 5-HTP, but I think you're missing a more plausible reason why it can cause anxiety in those prone. My own personal feeling is that when you have become anxious, and attributed that to MDMA-use, anything which even remotes the resemblance of taking the drug (I.E. taking a pill, powdered capsule) can evoke anxiety. Especially if you feel that 5-HTP has worsened your mood merely hours later. Regarding the long-term effects of 5-HTP supplementation, I'm not sure, so I won't comment.

Maybe there is as many reports stating a positive impact? I doubt it, but let's assume that it is true. Even if the probability of it giving you some relief is 50%, I would not recommend every person with long-term symptoms from MDMA use to take 5-HTP.

In my opinion, it doesn't really change much at all (neither benefits nor hinders). This also holds true with my prior theory about 5-HTP evoking anxiety as a bodily defense mechanism to taking MDMA again. Those that do find a benefit from 5-HTP are probably achieving one through a simple placebo in my opinion.

Yes, so what is the point of introducing more of a certain precursor in the long term?

None, I never suggested that it was a good idea (well unless you believe that a comedown is long-term serotonin damage).

If my understanding is correct, 5-HTP is thought to be beneficial very shortly (a few days) after taking MDMA because it bypasses the enzyme (TPH?) needed to synthesize 5-HTP from L-tryptophan.

Yeah, this is when I believe 5-HTP is actually beneficial - immediately post-MDMA when TPH is inhibited.

Can you explain why it would be beneficial to supplement with 5-HTP for someone suffering from long-term damage induced by MDMA?

If you believe that a long-term comedown is genuine brain damage (which I personally don't), then the "damage" must be serotonin-related because that's what MDMA can destroy. So if you believe that your symptoms are simply serotonergic damage then 5-HTP may assist the re-synthesis of 5-HT neurons by increasing serotonin neurotransmission (but note 5-HTP does not cause direct serotonin release, just acts to increase serotonin stores, which could result in more serotonin release, more serotonin neurotransmission and quicker recovery of the system). But like I said, I don't believe it's all that simple with MDMA comedowns, so I wouldn't advise long-term 5-HTP anyways.

BTW: I'll dig up that research article. I'm almost positive that they are talking about typical supplemental doses from 50 - 200mg. The research was based on the influx of people taking the supplement, so I would guess that it is based on typical doses.

You'd be surprised, if you've done enough reading into the MDMA literature you'll realize that doses are usually much higher than most sane human beings would take. Scientists will often administer large doses of anything to make the effect they're wanting to find, easier to find. Of course by doing this you take away from some of the ecological validity of the study.

Hope this all made sense.

I don't want to hi-jack the thread, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[India111]

I stopped reading into it this week and just went with what my body was telling me. I made the mistake of obtaining an 'internet phd' when i was at my worst last week. When i went to the doctors i was suggesting all sorts of things, they said this alone will be very detrimental to my recovery, especially for someone who's already predisposed to those sort of thought processes. I was so desperate for answers i thought filling my head with snippets of knowledge on the internet that weren't viewed with any sort of context or medical training would help me come to terms with what was happening, of course it didn't and seeing something from what i deemed a 'concrete' source that i didn't like the sound of sent me into a spiral of despair. The doctor doesn't know everything but neither do i, I think it's a case of meeting somewhere in the middle

 

[India111]

Also in my opinion, this can also be applied to spending too much time on bluelight in the acute phase of recovery. I'd like to use taking mdma as an analogy here seeing as it's appropriate. You take some and it makes you feel better, but then after a while you reach a plateau and if you keep redosing you'll only do yourself harm. That's what i did on my birthday and it's what I've continued to do, just replacing mdma with knowledge. Understanding a bit about what was happening to me helped, but i kept looking and i began to find more and more horror stories and things that made me worse, and ended up in a very bad place indeed

 

[JWills20]

I stopped reading into it this week and just went with what my body was telling me. I made the mistake of obtaining an 'internet phd' when i was at my worst last week. When i went to the doctors i was suggesting all sorts of things, they said this alone will be very detrimental to my recovery, especially for someone who's already predisposed to those sort of thought processes. I was so desperate for answers i thought filling my head with snippets of knowledge on the internet that weren't viewed with any sort of context or medical training would help me come to terms with what was happening, of course it didn't and seeing something from what i deemed a 'concrete' source that i didn't like the sound of sent me into a spiral of despair. The doctor doesn't know everything but neither do i, I think it's a case of meeting somewhere in the middle

Also in my opinion, this can also be applied to spending too much time on bluelight in the acute phase of recovery. I'd like to use taking mdma as an analogy here seeing as it's appropriate. You take some and it makes you feel better, but then after a while you reach a plateau and if you keep redosing you'll only do yourself harm. That's what i did on my birthday and it's what I've continued to do, just replacing mdma with knowledge. Understanding a bit about what was happening to me helped, but i kept looking and i began to find more and more horror stories and things that made me worse, and ended up in a very bad place indeed

These two posts are a prime example of how both BL and science can cause more problems than they actually solve, and is why I try to call people out when they quote science around the place, often completely out of context.

 

[India111]

Btw everyone, there is one symptom i didn't list here that now that i think about it i probably should, and that is that since i rolled i have been pretty much permanently thirsty. It's been one of the less annoying symptoms so i haven't really given it much thought but it is odd, could that be a cause of the headaches or suggests i drank too much/too little on the night? I do remember now getting a headache on the night and worrying about my hydration, but i was sipping water and i was only at home rather than a rave or anything so i tried to be careful i don't know how many cups of water i drank but as i said i was only sipping so it can't have been that much. I did pee a lot when i woke up the next morning though. It's not badly thirsty since then btw, just sort of dry. I've been drinking more liquids than i usually would to stay hydrated but i haven't been overdoing it. I've also noticed dry skin and lips since then. It could just be anxiety. The last thing I'm going to do is be a hypocrite and start looking up water intoxication

 

[nka28]

Hi INdia111, I'm having a similar issue right now. It's been about 8days since I rolled (it was my second time ever). I was just wondering how are you feeling now and how long did it take before you got back to normal?

Thanks,

 

[Jabberwocky]

Trust me, I'm even reconsidering drinking alcohol ever again, let alone taking drugs again!!

I appreciate your advice, but I want you to know that there is absolutely no chance I will ever take drugs again, I can safely say this is the single most frightening experience of my life and I would give anything to come out of it, the last thing I want to do is to ever have to go through this again, I wouldn't wish this feeling on my worst enemy!

What sort of adverse reaction did you experience? And did you recover? I would like to hear your experience

Girlfriend its your omeprazole, the 300+ mg dose, the coke, and the alcohol

Omeprazole inhibits CYP2C19, and CYP3A4 -- the 2 primary metabolizers of MDMA -- meaning the level of mdma in your blood reached a level much higher the time and circulated longer -- the metabolites will also hang around longer -- this is further compounded by the FACT that MDMA is an inhibitor of the enzymes that metabolize it -- at higher doses

Yes it only has a half-life of 1-1.5 hours, BUT -- it takes 6 to be absorbed, and reaches a steady state after multiple daily dosing. It's action on the stomach persists for days -- it is likely the inhibition of the CYP enzymes can persist as long -- based on your experience

Cocaine is a substrate for CYP3A4 -so it futher inhibits MDMA metabolism by competing for space

lastly mixing alcohol and cocaine results in cocaethylene -- a psychoactive long lasting chemical


MODS -- We need a sticky identifying the possible DANGEROUS INTERACTION between Omeprazole (Prilosec) and MDMA