Weariness of the Human Condition

[-=SS=-]

Prelude: Currently writing a 20,000 word masters dissertation, back at the parents, broke.. so yes I am slightly depressed, stressed out, and maybe a bit ranty.
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We have a lot of threads in this forum, on some very interesting topics, but I keep wondering where everyone as an individual stands.. like we love to discuss all these fringe things and speculate on stuff, which is all dandy and interesting, but again I keep thinking we're not taking advantage of a platform like this. I mean at the end of the day do any of these topics lead to anything tangible? Are we not passing up the opportunity to share what really matters? Think before the internet.. you might get the occasional topic in the pub on a friday night.. "so Joe, what do you think happens when you die?". Here we can meet many people willing to share and discuss those kinds of questions, to provoke the deep questions.

So, my main question for this thread is: "How do you justify your existence?"


I struggle with this question. I feel kind of like Agent Smith in the Matrix.. "I'll admit, it's hard to even think whilst encased in this rotting piece of flesh.". The body has its demands, which do offer rewards upon satiating.. such as hunger, thirst, sex, but the temporary nature of this 'happiness' can't be grasped or held on to, it doesn't last. It is clearly nothing more than bait to drive us forward. And this is where I find myself getting stuck. My close female friend thinks I think too much, my mum said the same thing yesterday when I said I wasn't sure whether I wanted to bring children into this world (I would love to, but at the same time I don't). All I see around me is human madness.. people coming up with little more than rationalizations for their own existence, ranging on a scale from none to incredibly sophisticated. None of it is very convincing.. I feel like I'm conversing with characters in a dream who believe they are real and can argue with words, but behind it there is nothing.. their thinking is not really their own.

In relation to children (my dissertation involves children and making things better for them, essentially).. I have been exposed to a lot of literature, obviously, surrounding child development, psychology etc. And I find this to be a source of anger, as I believe the way we treat our children is pretty barbaric, especially through education. This is not to say the experts know something we don't and that if we did it their way things would be better. On the contrary, it is the meddling at all that causes all the problems. We're leaving an absolute stinking pile for the next generation to deal with on a scale the world has never seen, and yet people still believe they are capable of raising children who can deal with this? Or will even want to?

The blind lead the blind.

"Abiding in the midst of ignorance, thinking themselves wise and learned, fools go aimlessly hither and thither, like blind led by the blind" - Upanishads. The Bible has a similar metaphor too.


So again, how do you deal with this? How do you justify your existence?

 

[ForEverAfter]

Our ballooning self-awareness has a function.
We need to see the problems we're causing, in order to rectify them.
But, I see a lot of people focusing on the harm rather than the rectification (of it).

My point is: I don't think we need to justify our existence.
I didn't choose to be born, into this world. I didn't choose to be born at all.
And, we didn't choose to exist.

I used to feel like I owed the world something.
Had a conversation with my mother in-law earlier today.
Told her I eat caged eggs and she said she'd pay the difference if I stopped.
Three meters away, she has a six foot plasma television on mute... (it has been on mute for the past hour)...
And I say to her, "What about the television?" So, she turns it off.
In the end, I don't think it makes any difference.

People who do charitable things and donate large amounts of cash, they're lucky.
The rest of us have to sit around and hate on ourselves...
Until, hopefully, one day we decide: "I am who I am."

I recycle. I'm a nice person.
I'll help someone if they're in need.
But, I'm not going to go out of my way.
Why should I have to justify that?
I'm totally okay with who I am.
Or, I'm getting there (at least).

I always encourage people to take it easy on themselves.
It's a cliche, but certain races are more guilt-ridden than others.
I've lived in a handful of weird countries, and I think Caucasians are pretty down on themselves.
We pity African people in terrible conditions, but our psyches are in terrible condition (half the time).

I've been to a lot of poor places in the world, and spent all my time with locals, and they seem pretty chill.
If you drive past, with your western suburban goggles on, they might look destitute...
And, maybe they are... but, maybe, we are too (in a way).

Life is pointless, I think.
There's no way to convince myself otherwise.
We will die one day. The universe will be gone.
But, in the meantime, why not have kids?

Life is fucking long. There's not that much to do.
Raising a family is a huge part of life, in my opinion.
Children are amazing.

This is not a good reason to have children, but: they will remind you of why you exist.
We need to keep the cycle going, for the sake of our own sanity.

If you give up on our species, then you give up on yourself.
I think it is - somewhat - unhealthy (spiritually) to not want to procreate.
It depends on the person, and the reasons, of course.

But, I can't say I'm fond of people saying "Why would I want to bring a child into this world?"
Maybe I've just never been that depressed, but I'd be surprised because I've been pretty fucking depressed.

The world is beautiful.
Life is fucking amazing.
Don't feel guilty.
You deserve it.

 

[Mysterie]

ive never really felt a need to justify my existence

@FeA, i dont mean to divert the topic of conversation, but u are srsly eating caged eggs after having gone vegan?
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i find most philosophical conversation pretty boring, same with despairing about the state of the planet, the state of mainstream human intelligence, its a waste of energy.

as for children, i kind of want to have them if i am in a position to. i think there are some pretty heavy lessons to be learnt through parent hood, if you can accept that we live in a society which is supported through consumerism, if everyone stops having children then we are probably in a bigger pickle than if everyone stops reproducing at the rate we once were. (which is the case at the present time).

The world is beautiful.
Life is fucking amazing.
Don't feel guilty.
You deserve it.

qft

 

[ForEverAfter]

@FeA, i dont mean to divert the topic of conversation, but u are srsly eating caged eggs after having gone vegan?

Yeah, I am.

 

[Mysterie]

to save 50 cents? don't you feel empathy for animals?

 

[ForEverAfter]

I scull fuck animals to death, and I like it.
You are better than me. Congratulations.

 

[Mysterie]

ok, i was just confused, not trying to take a moral high ground.

 

[ForEverAfter]

Okay, sorry for snapping at you.
I'm just sick of people judging me about cage eggs.
I mean, you don't know my financial situation.

And, my point about the television...
We're using computers.
So, why are eggs important?

The whole cage eggs versus free range thing is a moral diversion, I reckon, so people can ignore the real harm they are doing to the environment. We write off our cars and our electricity wastage by buying less bloody eggs. Why? Because we have to eat that shit. It's too close to home. The blood is almost on our hands. And we don't want that. So we say, "no."

Meanwhile, cage hen prices plummet and the conditions worsen accordingly.
But that's not our concern. Because we're doing the right thing.

It's a joke, as far as I'm concerned.
They sell cage eggs. I buy them.
Other people buy free range.
There's not much difference.

Eventually they'll probably phase out caged eggs.
When they do, I'm not going to get a chicken and shove it in a cage.
But, until then, they're selling them.

And - like vegans, choosing vegetables over meat - you might choose free range.
But, that doesn't mean you're better than me or they're better than you.

I've changed my attitude a lot, towards meat.
I think vegan-ism was part of my depression.

...

This thread is about justifying your existence.
Well, I feel like I shouldn't have to justify eggs.

...

I think part of the reason I eat them is to defy expectation.
To exercise my freedom to eat them.
Because, I don't care.
(And neither should you.)

 

[-=SS=-]

Once you eat some eggs made by real free range chickens.. ones that get to roam properly and eat bugs.. store bought eggs (cage or "free range") both become equally poor. If we placed emphasis on taste/quality over (perceived) morality, both chickens and humans win. As it stands we both lose, and the business man wins.

 

[ForEverAfter]

That GOD-Damned business man! Everybody should stop eating eggs from the supermarket immediately.
Then, they can euthanize all those chickens and the farmers will become the business men! Hoorah!

I've eaten eggs from all sorts of chickens. I don't live in the third world.
There isn't that much difference. I don't eat raw eggs all that often, so I don't care.
Like coffee, some people insist that there's a huge difference between cheap and expensive coffee.
Personally, I don't give a shit. Coffee is coffee. Eggs are eggs. What the fuck did a chicken ever do for me?

 

[swilow]

^Eggs from your neighbours chicken coop both look and smell different to free range/barn laid/cage mass produced eggs IME.

 

[ForEverAfter]

Yeah I can tell the difference, but it doesn't matter much to me.
It's not a significant difference IMO.
I'm just happy to have eggs to eat.

And I'm not convinced that we can ever really determine whether or not chickens want to be egg slaves.
Or if they want for anything.

I'd love to know, but we don't.
And, I'm okay with that too.

If they are highly self-aware, then their lives are going to be horrific regardless of standards.
Most of the free range eggs people eat come from mass-production lots that push the limits of what is currently deemed legally acceptable.

I see time flowing, like a river.
We can see where it is going.
There is a trend; a good trend.
Chickens are being treated better.
But, we don't need the future now.
Now is good enough for now, but it is not good enough for the future.

NSFW:

We need to coexist in two states (satisfied with this as the present / unsatisfied with this as the future) in order to be happy, I think.

 

[herbavore]

Well, I'm just not going to comment on the egg thing or the egg vs the computer thing because I'll get sidetracked.....

....and the original question interests me. It doesn't interest me as a question but I understand that it interests =SS= very much and that I find fascinating. Why do I, a relatively intellectually engaged and emotionally intelligent person, not even get the impulse to justify my existence and someone also intellectually engaged and emotionally intelligent like =SS= not only needs to ask this question but places great personal importance on it? I find that genuinely intriguing. Perhaps it is just our natures? But we seem to have very similar natures in many ways. My question would be, "what makes some people need to ask that question and others not even quite understand it?" Because I do not think it comes down to "thinking too much".

For me I can't even think of a way to connect the verb "justify" with the noun, "existence". Are we different from the other species in this regard that we do not simply wake up in this garden? Like ForEverAfter I feel that I did not ask to be born (I realize in some people's worldview/religion that I did ask to be born) but that I am here, in all my human vulnerability to time and place, family of origin, gender, class, race, personality etc. I have many, many choices to make every single moment of my life; but as a child I was simply absorbing the gigantic Book of Rules out there in the ether surrounding everything and everyone I knew so I was not aware of having too much choice--I was just scrambling along trying to get the rules straight for each part of the planet I found myself in and complying as best I could. But alongside the little girl that was trying to do what was expected was the untamed child that knew the joy of simply being a part of everything. Remember how when you were little you were so acutely aware of your surroundings, particularly outdoors, that you were relatively unaware of your self? That remains the solid place from which I developed and that place could be justified or not and it would still be just what it is: human, born, being, eventually dying.

Does the need to justify one's existence come from the same place as the expectation to do something with your life that will define who you are? We have so confused the concepts of doing and being that we ask children what they want to be when they grow up and what we mean is what job would you like to do in exchange for money?

The first time someone asked my older son what he wanted to "be" when he grew up he answered, " I want to be a man that still likes bugs. Because I like bugs." (He was about 3 I think.) The second time was at the pre-kindergarten pediatric visit and when asked the same question he responded, "How would I know that? I'm only five!"

If just being is all there is then where does morality come in? I believe, some say naively, that when we are allowed to be, when we allow ourselves to be and we put the emphasis on that rather than doing, compassion flows quite naturally. When instead we get stuck in the rule-absorbing stage of life morality becomes just more rules that we are obliged to comply with. When I shifted my focus to what kind of person I am rather than what kind of role I play in my life I was able to stop looking for self-justification. I worried less about being recognized. I needed less outside approval.

I do worry about passing on a world that is most definitely moving into a large period of change and extinctions. But then I remember to feel small; I remember that I am small and I cannot change anything but the small being that is me. That is the only part of the web I can alter but when I do, I have altered the whole web of existence! I remember that there have been five massive extinctions before this one. This one may take us with it. But it may not. Perhaps we will evolve in ways that we have been told we never could and we will not only survive but we will stop worshiping greed and elevating the greediest to be our leaders. When I hear people say that they want children but do not feel they can honestly bring them into this mess, I feel deeply sad. I do not think they are wrong or right. I understand both the fear and the weariness.

I guess what keeps me going and upright and able to laugh and still have damn good days is that I believe in surprise. I am very pessimistic by nature. I worry myself sick sometimes. I keep my eyes open even in the face of horror and then I relive it in my own head. I'm as susceptible to fear as everyone else. But so many times in my life when I have drawn one of my cynical or pessimistic conclusions life has spilled a great big surprise of magnificent wonderfulness into my lap and left me spluttering. And I know that passing on hopelessness to our children only secures the current paradigm. Keeping hope alive is a revolutionary act. It doesn't mean putting the rose colored glasses or the blinders on. It means believing in your own and others potential, working on creating systems that support rather than destroy that potential. I assume that your dissertation is an effort that would fit that category. There are huge power struggles going on in the world of education right now. We need all the voices we can get to re-humanize education and what is that about if not about creating hopefulness and imagination in our children?

I have so much more to say but I'm getting scattered now so I'll shut up and jump back in later.


P.S. I could have saved all this space had I checked out ForEverAfter's NSFW at the end of his post before I started writing. That says it all IMO.