Wanting to experiment with psychedelics, but...

[AusLuna]

Hi Bluelighters,

I'm really interested in experimenting with psychedelics, but have put it off for years because I suffer an anxiety disorder (OCD), which is controlled very well with SSRIs (100mg sertraline) daily.

I occasionally take a 2mg alprazolam if I have a panic attack , but I only take them sparingly now due to a prior 15 year dependence . Finally beat the benzo withdrawls using Cannabis , so now can take the occasional alprazolam and it actually works now (definitely not tempted to go back to regular use! )

Anyway enough of my medical history 8) , what I'm looking into is whether psychedelics are contraindicated with SSRIs , and have they been known to damage serotonin receptors or anything like that ?

I'm also looking for advice on how to get started with hallucinogens. . . Like , what would be a good starting point ? I have long been extremely interested in DMT and the [FONT=Roboto-Regular, HelveticaNeue, Arial, sans-serif]Ayahuasca ritual , and am generally very interested in altered states of conciousness, whether it be through meditation, sensory deprivation or substances . . . And I'm keen to explore this other world.

Looking forward to any advice and discussion to hopefully help me safely experience psychedelics [/FONT]

 

[Bagseed]

well taking psychedelics while on antidepressants seems tricky. I have read people saying it works normal for them, others feel that the ADs lessen the effects of the psychedelic, and other stuff. so there is no definite answer, and it also depends on the type of medication, as well as the psychedelic in question.

one thing which is very important to consider is that antidepressants (SSRI, SNRI,...) can be fatal when combined with a MAO inhibitor. such an MAO inhibitor is always part of ayahuasca.

I personally would stay away from taking psychedelics while on antidepressants, doesn't seem worth it. I'd suggest that you should work hard on your mental health in order to be able to function again without taking medication, then you might think about experimenting with psychedelics.

 

[Hodor]

I'm also looking for advice on how to get started with hallucinogens. . . Like , what would be a good starting point ? I have long been extremely interested in DMT and the [FONT=Roboto-Regular, HelveticaNeue, Arial, sans-serif]Ayahuasca ritual , and am generally very interested in altered states of conciousness, whether it be through meditation, sensory deprivation or substances . . . And I'm keen to explore this other world.

Looking forward to any advice and discussion to hopefully help me safely experience psychedelics [/FONT]

Ironically, Ayahuasca is the one psychedelic you *really* don't want to take, since DMT is only active orally when combined with an MAO Inhibitor - which could theoretically cause life-threatening interactions ("serotonin syndrome") with your SSRI.
LSD and shrooms (as well as their "research chemical" analogs, like ALD-52 and 4-AcO-DMT) should be fine though, it's just that people on SSRI's often require higher doses.

In general, psychedelics are not contraindicated for people on SSRI's. Be aware, however, that the psychedelic experience isn't all pretty visuals, but also intense emotional introspection - once you're past the peak, the hallucinations will take a back seat to strongly amplified emotions, which may very well include e.g. crippling doubt and hopeless isolation.

 

[swilow]

Well, I was on SSRI's for maybe 5-6 years and I tripped extensively during that. In fact, it was whilst on them that I experimented the most with different classes of chemicals. Obvsiously, certain things were contraindicated but I avoided them and enjoyed everything else. I tripped before I was on SSRI's and again now that I have been off them for 5 years or so. For me, they mildy attenuated some effects of most psychedelics, but only mildly. I had hyper-cosmic experiences on many occaisions. I guess YMMV is a worthy acronym to throw down, but for me, SSRI's (I was on 50mg of sertraline for most of it) didn't change much (including helping the various conditions I was prescribed them for).

occasionally take a 2mg alprazolam if I have a panic attack , but I only take them sparingly now due to a prior 15 year dependence . Finally beat the benzo withdrawls using Cannabis , so now can take the occasional alprazolam and it actually works now (definitely not tempted to go back to regular use! )

Congrats on beating benzo's my friend. They had me too, badly, and I too got off them. That's worthy of a lot of self-congratulation.

Anyway enough of my medical history , what I'm looking into is whether psychedelics are contraindicated with SSRIs , and have they been known to damage serotonin receptors or anything like that ?

As mentioned, SSRI's are thought to reduce effects of most serotonergic psychedelics.

Most psychedelics do not damage the brain. They can cause a down regulation of specific serotonin receptors (tolerance) but this is temporary and an expected physiological response to an exogenous substance effecting an organ. Some people get very positive sensations after the trip (I usually do), a deep sense of ease and content, others feel quite scatterred and can feel a bit depressed or anxious. It can depend on the quality of the trip, it might not. YMMV!

As has been mentioned, you will need to avoid ayahuasca as this will be potentially fatal when combined with SSRI's. You can certainly smoke pure DMT though, that has had great anxiolytic and anti-depressant effects for me. I take it you are from Australia? Be on the lookout for the DMT extract changa- this is also not considered safe to use on SSRI's, as it contains a smoke-able MAOi. I think the danger here is probably speculative but not worth the risk IMO.

There are some other psychedelics you would want to avoid; AMT for example has MAOi effects. 5-MeO-DMT is thought to also; as is bufotenine. Some of the 2c-t-x drugs are contraindicated also. I think you would want to be cautious combining your SSRI's with things like DXM, MXE and some of the newer PCP analogues, as these have effects on serotonin also. Most of the traditional psychedelics, such as LSD, mushrooms, mescaline, DMT, weed, etc. are safe to use at least as far as interactions go. And all of those are also safe to use with alporazolam. Obviously, be cautious of your dosage of any benzo when on psychedelics; they do not abort a trip but simply reduce the anxiety, but can cause their own unique messiness. I rarely am as confused as when I've taken MXE and any benzo or GHB, the combination of amnesia and dissociation has had me in some odd situations.

 

[mr peabody]

There are some other psychedelics you would want to avoid; AMT for example has MAOi effects. 5-MeO-DMT is thought to also; as is bufotenine. Some of the 2c-t-x drugs are contraindicated also. I think you would want to be cautious combining your SSRI's with things like DXM, MXE and some of the newer PCP analogues, as these have effects on serotonin also. Most of the traditional psychedelics, such as LSD, mushrooms, mescaline, DMT, weed, etc. are safe to use at least as far as interactions go. And all of those are also safe to use with alporazolam.

Thank you so much. Any idea whether ALD-52 is a problem with SSRI's?

 

[swilow]

I think ALD-52 would be safe to use. LSD certainly was. I should note that I recall hearing of people getting stronger serotonergic side effects when combining psyches and SSRI's; I never experienced this- but I recall people mentioning potential serotonin syndrome. I don't think its probable but should be considered a possibility.

 

[Hodor]

Thank you so much. Any idea whether ALD-52 is a problem with SSRI's?

ALD-52 and the other lysergamides are just about the "safest" psychedelics out there.

Regardings swilow's comment, I'm not sure how they could give somebody serotonin syndrome - they are not serotonin releasing agents or MAOI's, and they don't seem to be metabolized by a single specific CYP-isoenzyme that could be inhibited by an SSRI (many antidepressants inhibit CYP2D6). And even if they are somehow potentiated, you probably wouldn't get the level of vasoconstriction you can get from other psychs.

If people on antidepressants feel uncomfortably stimulated by LSD, then maybe that's just the drug compounding their higher baseline anxiety levels. Or the "serotonin syndrome" is actually are them feeling more of the dopaminergic and adrenergic effect because their response to the serotonin agonism is lessened (LSD is a pretty "promiscuous" drug that will interact with a whole lot of receptors, including non-serotonergic ones).

Again, that's just referring to LSD though.

For the other psychs he mentioned above (5-MeO-tryptamines, AMT, 2C-T-x, non-classical psychedelics like dissociatives or deliriants...), dangerous interactions certainly cannot be ruled out, or may even be a deadly certainty.

 

[swilow]

^My remarks were more cautionary, probably overly so. Anecdotal. You're right, there's no real mechanism to induce serotonin sydrome when these compounds are combined.

 

[Synaps3]

Yeah, I'd be careful with the serotonin syndrome, but you should be fine. If I were you, I'd avoid the SSRIs for a few days before indulging. Psychedelics do provide a very deep introspection that SSRIs won't. I like to think of SSRIs like alcohol. It may help you feel better (emotionally blunted for a few days), but psychedelics may help you more in the long term. I think it's good you're interested in them because it really might help you long term. But honestly, if you're like I was when first taking them, understand that it has NOTHING to do with visuals or hallucinations. It is entirely about understanding your own emotions and yourself.

 

[Hodor]

Yeah, I'd be careful with the serotonin syndrome, but you should be fine. If I were you, I'd avoid the SSRIs for a few days before indulging.

Avoiding SSRI's for "a few days" would leave him in the middle of SSRI discontinuation syndrome, which tends to make people cranky, and give them brain zaps and a weird kind of dizzyness 8( . Not exactly conducive to a good mindset for the trip

Psychedelics do provide a very deep introspection that SSRIs won't. I like to think of SSRIs like alcohol. It may help you feel better (emotionally blunted for a few days), but psychedelics may help you more in the long term. I think it's good you're interested in them because it really might help you long term. But honestly, if you're like I was when first taking them, understand that it has NOTHING to do with visuals or hallucinations. It is entirely about understanding your own emotions and yourself.

SSRI's aren't comparable to alcohol - benzos are, yeah, but not SSRI's. SSRI's do not provide euphoria; if they do work as intended, the slight emotional blunting from the SSRI is more than compensated by the wider range of emotions you are able to feel because you are no longer rendered listless by your untreated depression.
Yes, psychedelics may get great results, but they might also push you even further into depression; or they might make you feel like you're getting better, but at the cost of removing you further from reality.

That's why I'd really advise you to have a therapist (that you trust won't judge you for using psychs) to discuss the contents of your psychedelic experience afterwards. Having an emotionally grounded person to talk to might help you salvage therapeutically valuable realizations even if the trip itself felt like a trainwreck.