Benzos URGENT - Should I take 180mg Diazepam or risk a seizure instead???

[ColoradoBoy90]

Because the doctor and pharmacist screwed up BIG TIME. I was on 18mg to 20mg Clonzepam daily (for like 9 years) which according to one conversion chart, 18mg Clonzepam = 180mg of Diazepam.
I ALSO TAKE 400MG+ Tramadol daily, and clonzepam is likely why I haven't had a seizure from the Tramadol... So This massive massive reduction to only 40mg Diazepam has me worried.

I was switched to mere 40mg Diazepam daily!!! When I have been on 18mg-20mg Clonzepam for almost 10 years! Won't I have a seizure(S)!?!? That's a MASSIVE MASSIVE dose reduction which could lead to seizures, no??
Especially reducing the dose that drastically risking seizures + being on Tramadol = I don't know what to do.

I normally take 18mg Clonzepam before bed (all at once).I need advice on much Diazepam to take to equal my 18mg of Clonzepam. Do I really need to take 180mg of Diazepam to equal 18mg Clonzepam?? Or what's a safe in between?

Please help, I want to hear from something other than just a conversion chart. As I don't want to take too much and die, or blackout and get fired from work. But I don't want to have seizures either =|

 

[Kdem]

According to the conversion charts, 20 mg clonazepam equals 400 mg diazepam.

IMO, this switch to diazepam doesn't make sense. Why not taper the clonazepam directly ? You could always switch to diazepam when you're at a low dose.
I'm not going to give advice on diazepam. But this switch doesn't seem that sensible.

 

[steewith2ees]

Diazepam is preferable to clonazepam for tapering as it is eliminated more slowly from the body.

Clonazepam, despite being considered a long acting benzo does not produce any active metabolites and wears off extremely quickly towards the tail end of its duration of action.

Both are effective for tapering but between the two diazepam is superior.

Ask the experts! 'The Ashton Manual' >>>>>> http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/

 

[benzoboss]

Lol thats more than 1 box of 10mg diazepamd a day ??.
Good luck.
Just take the diazepam or you migjt die

 

[burn out]

Diazepam is preferable to clonazepam for tapering as it is eliminated more slowly from the body.

Clonazepam, despite being considered a long acting benzo does not produce any active metabolites and wears off extremely quickly towards the tail end of its duration of action.

Both are effective for tapering but between the two diazepam is superior.

Ask the experts! 'The Ashton Manual' >>>>>> http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/

Yes, but for someone taking 18 mg of clonazepam daily (an insane amount) it makes far more sense to begin tapering the clonazepam first and then cross over gradually when reaching a lower dose, then to suddenly switch to 400 mg of diazepam.

 

[Speed King]

I don't know why people keep saying Valium/diazepam is weak. Everyone is different. I had a genetic test done, and the doc said I was most sensitive to Valium. Personally I think comparing Valium and Klonopin are like comparing apples and oranges. From my experience, I think its more like 1 mg clonazepam = 10 mg diazepam, Everyone is different, I take 40 mg Valium daily, The fact that it has a bunch of metabolites and it builds up in your system, means a lot. As usual, YMMV. If you have tolerance, I would take what you can handle. i would not take 180mg at once, Start lower then that, If you think your going to have a seizure, don't take any more Tramadol, You should probably go to the hospital, don't risk a seizure. If you are in that bad off a condition, go to the hospital now.

 

[steewith2ees]

Yes, but for someone taking 18 mg of clonazepam daily (an insane amount) it makes far more sense to begin tapering the clonazepam first and then cross over gradually when reaching a lower dose, then to suddenly switch to 400 mg of diazepam.

True, even the example clonazepam taper in the Ashton suggests sticking with the clonazepam until the dose becomes lower (and more gradual reductions are required) - but to say 400mg of diazepam is an insane amount, is right, but we are splitting hairs - 18mg of clonazepam is equally as unbelievable - all I an say to the OP is not to take the dosage descriptions as judgement - they're just unusually high and I wish them all the best with what will be a long but still perfectly possible road to recovery.

As for the subjective dosage equivalency I agree with Speed King, I have never personally felt that half a mg is equipotent to 10mg diazepam - when I was first introduced to Rivotril by a colleague in 2002 it was a relatively uncommon drug in the UK - he equated it to 7.5mg diaz (to split the difference SK ) and from a subjective standpoint I would agree.

 

[Illegal]

off topic but can they just take off 5mg off your dose you been on for over a year to ween you off when the ashton manual says to drop it by 2mg?

 

[burn out]

off topic but can they just take off 5mg off your dose you been on for over a year to ween you off when the ashton manual says to drop it by 2mg?

What do you mean? Are you saying, would it be a good idea to do that? The answer is no. If you mean can they as in, can they get away with it, yes they can get away with it.

 

[bobby1978]

off topic but can they just take off 5mg off your dose you been on for over a year to ween you off when the ashton manual says to drop it by 2mg?

I had a doctor take me off clonazepam completely, put me on goddamn paroxetine (paxil) and then have the gall to tell me it's the same thing.

So yeah....."they" can do pretty much anything.

 

[Erikmen]

I don't know why people keep saying Valium/diazepam is weak. Everyone is different. I had a genetic test done, and the doc said I was most sensitive to Valium. Personally I think comparing Valium and Klonopin are like comparing apples and oranges. From my experience, I think its more like 1 mg clonazepam = 10 mg diazepam, Everyone is different, I take 40 mg Valium daily, The fact that it has a bunch of metabolites and it builds up in your system, means a lot. As usual, YMMV. If you have tolerance, I would take what you can handle. i would not take 180mg at once, Start lower then that, If you think your going to have a seizure, don't take any more Tramadol, You should probably go to the hospital, don't risk a seizure. If you are in that bad off a condition, go to the hospital now.

This!

It covers pretty much everything about the subject.

 

[ColoradoBoy90]

Well, I don't get it. On day 3 I do feel weird, spacey, etc, but not sure if it's SNRI WD or Clonzepam WD.

1st night: out of Clonzepam
Entirely for 24 hours. I took 55mg Diazepam sublingual and went to bed fine.
Day 1: I feel weird, but not sure if it's from the reduction in Clonzepam or the fact I ALSO stopped cold turkey 600mg+ Tramadol a day at same time (I am taking 0.5mg to 1mg subs per day to replace it, for a few days to 1 week max then stopping the subs). I did this because I know Tramadol makes seizures more likely so I figured I'd finally try to kick opiods once and for all.
I added 37.5mg Effexor to try and cover up and SNRI withdrawal effects.

But I think 37.5mg Effexor isn't even close to the SNRI effects that 600 Tramadol would do, right?

--Night two: Took 50mg Dizepam along with other stuff I take for sleep and fell asleep fine to my surprise.

--Day 3: I felt weird, foggy headed, stiffer neck, etc (no brain zaps though, yet) but things seem really spacey and weird sometimes. I'm seeing shit out of the corner of my eyes a lot, or look at something and think it's something totally else for a second..... So I don't know if I feel this way due to SNRI withdrawal OR from switching to Diazepam and having Benzo WD.
Or maybe a combo or both.

Night 3: well, that's right now. Feel just as weird as during the day. Extremely tense muscles. Only took 1mg sub for the day total to cover up the 600mg+ Tramadol habit, and took 37.5mg Effexor like I did the last couple days to try and offset the SNRI withdrawals. But I think 37.5mg is probably too low. I plan on going from Effexor to Prozac or something in like a week, as I do have depression and OCD (which is why I started opiates and Benzos) but I'd rather be on Prozac then Tramadol.

I plan to take probably 60mg Diazepam tonight. If I still feel weird and spacey tomorrow... I dunno if I should up the Effexor ER dose to 37.5mg Twice daily, or to up my Dizepam dosage. And maybe take 10-15 mg during the day spread out and continue taking 40-50mg at night?
Either way this doesn't make sense. My body was massively tolerant to Clonzepam, some nights I would take 22MG ++ and STILL BE AWAKE WITH ANXIETY!! I had insane tolerance. So I'm VERY confused how I'm able to fall asleep on a mere 50mg of Diazepam??? Maybe it's still too early to tell...

Oh, and to confuse thing even more... I added 10mg Prozac at night on night 2. So maybe thay why during day 2 I felt so weird. I dobut it but who knows. I know taking 2 AD's isn't a good idea, but I figured low dose Effexor and Low dose Prozac would help me with the SNRI withdrawals coming off 600mg Tramadol cold turkey (also to complicate things). But necessary as I had to Lower my seizure risk, and, I wanted off opiate and take AD's instead, I was better off on them.
So now yeah... I'm lost. My muscles are super stiff. I'm guessing that's the benzo WD. I still don't know how I got through 2-3 days on only 40-55mg of Diazepam?? I hope can last another day. But this spacey feeling is driving me nuts. I keep making spelling errors non stop and retyping

 

[burn out]

Its not at all surprising you got through. Benzo withdrawal doesn't necessarily kick in immediately the way heroin withdrawal would. If you were on 18 mg of klonopin per day thats a tremendous dose, an enormous dose and large amounts will have built up in your system. In addition to what was already in your system, you took some diazepam, another benzo with an exceedingly long half life, which could lesson any of the benzo wd effects you might be feeling. Ive read it can take up to two weeks for clonazepam withdrawal to fully kick in.

Also, I know it's none of my business but just looking out for your personal welfare, I think you might want to question why you are taking all these drugs. Obviously I am not saying stop right away as they need to be tapered but long term use of these kinds of drugs can really damage your brain, especially in the doses you are talking about it. Have you considered alternatives to prescription drugs like herbal remedies?

 

[OntarioGuy]

I was taking about 20-30 mgs of clonazepam or alprazolam daily and when I switched to diazepam 100 mgs once daily held me perfectly.

I think a 40 mg dose of diazepam would suppress most of the withdrawal symptoms, but u probably won't sleep good and shit like that. I'd say an 80-100 mg dose is needed given ur clonazepam tolerance

 

[ColoradoBoy90]

I'm totally fucked. Every pharmacist told me "40mg Diazepam" is enough, bullshit!! I gave them .gov links as proof as it must have been an error, and they dismissed it saying all conversion charts are wrong, and that 100mg+ Diazepam would kill me. Even with a tolerance to 18mg Clonzepam daily.. Right.. Only one pharmacist admitted 10mg is only equal to 0.5mg Clonzepam. He told me to contact my doctor, which I should have ASAP but I slept in and missed him, and then he went on vacation for 1 month.

Well, I had to take 100mg+ daily to avoid seizures and now....AND NOW? NOW I'm looking at an empty bottle, and my doctor randomly closed for 4 weeks for vacation. Great.

So I dunno wtf to do. I will run out cold turkey on a insane benzo dosage, enough to kill me. Do I go to ER? Can they even help me if I bring proof like my prescription bottles and proof of my high dosage and show that my doctor is gone?

Or will they think I'm crazy for taking 100mg+ Diazepam and flag me? Dammit. Supposedly 40mg is the max dosage...

I think they are going to ask "why did you the entire bottle in only 10-15 days!?!"
Well... because I was having seizures and my doctor was out of town and every single source online says I need to take 140mg or so daily, so I followed it as pharmacist told me there is no conversion yet I saw online from even .gov websites there is... I don't know how that "excuse" would fly, even though it's the truth.

I'm fucked...

 

[tacodude]

Go to the ER and explain everything. If they refuse to help (although they shouldn't) just tell them you'll be back via ambulance once you have near fatal seizures.

 

[keeping]

ColoradoBoy, any update on your situation?

 

[Coolwhip]

Why were you taking 18mg of klonopin at once anyways?

But from what I've witnessed, avoiding repeated WDs goes a long way to reducing the severity of them, I would assume due to the kindling effect. As in even if you were on a massive dose that would result in hell on earth in an individual who had been on and off benzos for years, will have very reduced symptoms if it is the first time they are WDing from them, despite being on a high dose for years. Not to make light of your situation at all, 18mg clonazepam is crazy, but you can probably get by dropping your dose by huge amounts at first(and then going slowly from there) especially if switching benzos.

 

[ColoradoBoy90]

Update would be... I don't know.Very bad. Chances are I will die, be it WD or I do it myself to escape the misery.

I took 18mg AT ONCE to sleep due to insane stress, and even that hardly helped. It didn't even make me tired...Tolerande got me to that level, and my muscles are so locked up that Benzo's kept my muscles from having spasms every 5 seconds all day.

Now I'm stuck on 50mg Diazepam and it's KILLING ME. That's only 1/4th the dose of Clonzepam I was taking, roughly. Every muscle hurts, my muscles lock up, constant pain, headaches, foggy head, and like a dozen other problems.
My doctor? Got into a bad car accident during this and will be out 6 months, no one to cover refills either. So I no longer have one.
Also: Diazepam IS NOT LONG ACTING!! On Clonzepam I could go 36+ hours between doses and feel no WD. Diazepam WD kicks in 12-14 hours after last dose. 100 hour half life is total BS, unless all the metabolites are inactive or what not....
No new doctors will see me or prescribe anything to help me tamper, as I was on an insane dosage and no doctor wants to prescribe ULTRA high dose Benzo's to help me tamper. No doctor wants to see a new patient and write for 18mg Clonzepam, heck I can't even doctor would do half the dosage.
OH, and did I mention I was on high dose Opiods that my doctor wrote me for also? So I'm going through Opiate AND Benzo WD at the same fucking time. If I don't find a new doctor in a few days I'm pretty sure my life is over.

 

[ColoradoBoy90]

What's odd is I feel more "alive" since the drastic cut in dosage. More "happy" (dare I say that word) and I dunno, things feel better. Not good, but better. But things are about to get A LOT WORSE, my doctor also wrote me high dose opiods, and I'm down to a couple days left............ I cannot survive opiod WD and Benzo WD at the same time!

I remember driving down the street to pick-up my prescription for Benzo's, and I was around 48 hours into WD (took only 10mg Valium in 48 hours, equal to only 0.5mg Clonzepam so basically nothing to my body, I was still in WD like crazy) and I remember feeling like my music and the sunny day, feeling like everything was "so beautiful". But my entire body was freaking out, neck muscles so stiff they are cutting off circulation to my brain, can't turn my head without getting dizzy and pain all over, muscles are just crazy hurting and so stiff no chriopractor or massage person can "believe it". Plus I felt so spaced out, and like nothing is quite "real". Likely because every muscle is so tense, beyond what a doctor told me he's ever seen in over 20 years, even their scans for muscle tension went "off the paper" which they claim they never have seen. It went black instead of Red, which red is suppose to be the worst, and my muscles are cutting off circulation to brain and everything.
It's a utter mess and he doesn't know how to help me. He said he could do chriopractor adjustments, but it wouldn't help me. That the Benzo's are literally holding my muscles hostage and nothing can relax them.
Yet mentally I felt better. Psychically I felt 100x worse. Odd.

Now only over a month into cutting from 18mg Clonzepam daily down to 40mg Diazepam, I'm still alive. But I normally need to take 50-80mg to not feel like my body is freaking out with pain and spasms everything, and not to feel super spaced out.
Yet I still feel like the high dose Benzo's were killing me mentally, as mentally I feel "better" on 40mg Diazepam (equal to only 4mg Clonzepam) VS before when I took 16-20mg Clonzepam daily. My body is physically freaking out still, as I had bad bad bad whiplash and horrid muscle problems that the Clonzepam kept them from having spasms every 2 seconds. The Dizepam helps, but wears off after 12 hours... so I'm fucked as I'll run out early.

Plus I'm down to like a few pills of opiates, oh my god, I cannot deal going through opiate WD and Benzo WD at the same time. My doctor is gone forever, and my choices are detox and loss my job, or somehow fight it and feel Benzo WD and opiate WD at same time... FML