CokeMonger
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2009
- Messages
- 89
How to spot a cop .... and ending the insane "War on Drugs"
Banquo (or other mod / admin) -- I guess editing posts is turned off as part of the pre-approval on messages on the board? Anyway, I caught a bunch of minor typos and other minor fixes in my post - can you zap the previous one and leave this one? Hope it's not too big of a pain in the butt for you to do so (sorry) [done -bq]
Coolio said: First of all, snitches are rarely undercover law enforcement agents. They're undercover civilians, working for law enforcement to avoid facing jail time. So they can break whatever the fuck laws they want while collecting evidence for the case being built against you. They're just civilians like you, with a tacit agreement from law enforcement that they will be getting away with some amount of crime because they are helping law enforcement do their job.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for posting this. You took the words right out of my mouth.
People are looking for people who "look like a cop" or feel 100% safe around some guy they were in jail with (or who they know was in jail), or who they know has been a rock solid dealer (or user) for many years. This is an error.
The average confidential informant (CI) / undercover isn't a cop at all. They are, just as Coolio said, actual dealers, dope fiends, and crooks of every stripe. Sample: Johnny Nogood gets arrested for possession of an ounce of heroin, making him eligible for 15 years in State prison (after which the feds get him and can give him another 10 years at Club Fed). Mr. Prosecutor says: We'll knock that down to one year in a minimum security country club if you play ball with us. Johnny, being no good, readily agrees.
Johnny Nogood wears a wire, goes into pre-wired rooms, makes connections, calls his friends, buys and sells and conspires with others to import from overseas, etc etc. After 6 months and 100 solid cases are built, the State Police & DEA go around one weekend arresting everybody involved.
Now, a good defense attorney could use at trial that Johnny was saving his own ass by acting as a CI, but keep in mind that less than 2% of criminal cases go to trial. The State has the defendants on tape, on video, on audio... You going to risk that a jury is going to say "well Johnny was a no good rat snitch, so I'm not going to convict?" Nope. All the defendants get a plea offer - do 3-5 years if you plea out, or risk 35 years if you take it to a jury.
So forget trying to tell "who's who" - it's not "undercover" if Johnny is just being Johnny.
As to your other questions, I agree with what everything said -
1) Can they get high with someone to, "prove" they are not undercover? ie. "Hey that guy might be a cop, make him smoke a joint with you before you sell to him. If he is a cop he wont smoke out."
Legally, no, they can't. But who would prosecute them? If (as has happened), someone is "asked" to get high at gunpoint to prove he/she isn't a cop, they do it, and report it to their superiors. So long as they follow procedure and report what happened, they're not going to arrest the cop nor prosecute him / her.
2) Can an undercover solicit a controlled substance or does the suspected dealer have to approach the undercover? ie. Out of the blue a person who you have met a couple of times, even given a ride to a few events but do not know all that well nor do you talk to this person all that often sends a text asking if you can hook it up. Can an undercover do that or would that fall under entrapment? Would the person who the undercover was trying to build a case on have to send the text out to or start the conversation by what ever means with the undercover asking if he needs anything?
As said several times by other posters, entrapment involves the defendant proving (and the defendant has to prove it, the State doesn't have to disprove it) that she / he would not have committed the crime had the police not set up the circumstances. Even though DeLorean used it successfully (Google it if you don't now I mean), it's a risky sell to a jury. I think it's second only to the insanity defense as far as the public not understanding what it's about and how it works in the real world (those found not guilty by reason of insanity don't walk out of the courtroom, they go to institutions that are, by and large, worse than prisons. And they stay there until a judge is convinced that the defendant is no longer a danger to himself or others -- that can mean life. Google around on it ... the average person acquitted for insanity does almost as much time as someone found guilty of the same offense).
3) I'm pretty sure that this one is an urban legend lie but, does an undercover have to identify his or her self as a cop when asked if they are an undercover?
Uhhh - no. Some urban legends are really silly, including this one. It's like the belief that a vice cop can't get totally naked on the job - with the hooker therefore insisting that prices not be discussed until the customer is nude.
The only thing relevant about this (either example) is that cops actively try to get people to believe it. I'd be a tad suspicious of someone who says it.
4) How [intricate] and expensive would a sting be? How much money would the DEA drop into a sting to [create] the facade of the undercover being an average raver kid?
Huh? First, average raver kids are less likely than others to say "no way" when given an "out" to be a CI after they get busted with 100 tabs of X (which I assume is a raver's favorite flavor of drugs), so I'm not sure where you're going with the question. No more expensive than any other operation.
It's all politics anyway -- the DA pours enough resources into it to make some nice headlines around election time and to show how "tough on crime" they are by busting people who are hurting no one but themselves.
Ask yourself this......
How many people have you known who had a serious drug problem but cleaned up and stopped using? (Let me guess.... between 5 and 50).
Now, of those people.... how many quit because drugs were no longer available? (Let me guess.... zero).
The "war on drugs" continues to be utter insanity. To the extent the State should be is involved at all, it is a health issue. Nonviolent drug offenders are just grist for the mill of politics - never mind that it costs $40,000-$70,000 (depending on which state or federal institution and what level of security) per inmate, per year to lock these people up. Never mind that children have their parents ripped away from them and lives are destroyed by carrying the weight of a conviction.
Why never mind all that? Because, as big as those considerations are, they pale in comparison to the real reason to stop the "war" and release the nonviolent offenders we've already locked up: Terrorism and other threats to to the country are real. If we take all those hardworking DEA and ATF and FBI agents and state, county and local police and put them to work for Homeland Security, might we spot and stop the next 9/11 before it hits?
Ehhh -- all too much sanity for our government to follow.
Banquo (or other mod / admin) -- I guess editing posts is turned off as part of the pre-approval on messages on the board? Anyway, I caught a bunch of minor typos and other minor fixes in my post - can you zap the previous one and leave this one? Hope it's not too big of a pain in the butt for you to do so (sorry) [done -bq]
Coolio said: First of all, snitches are rarely undercover law enforcement agents. They're undercover civilians, working for law enforcement to avoid facing jail time. So they can break whatever the fuck laws they want while collecting evidence for the case being built against you. They're just civilians like you, with a tacit agreement from law enforcement that they will be getting away with some amount of crime because they are helping law enforcement do their job.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for posting this. You took the words right out of my mouth.
People are looking for people who "look like a cop" or feel 100% safe around some guy they were in jail with (or who they know was in jail), or who they know has been a rock solid dealer (or user) for many years. This is an error.
The average confidential informant (CI) / undercover isn't a cop at all. They are, just as Coolio said, actual dealers, dope fiends, and crooks of every stripe. Sample: Johnny Nogood gets arrested for possession of an ounce of heroin, making him eligible for 15 years in State prison (after which the feds get him and can give him another 10 years at Club Fed). Mr. Prosecutor says: We'll knock that down to one year in a minimum security country club if you play ball with us. Johnny, being no good, readily agrees.
Johnny Nogood wears a wire, goes into pre-wired rooms, makes connections, calls his friends, buys and sells and conspires with others to import from overseas, etc etc. After 6 months and 100 solid cases are built, the State Police & DEA go around one weekend arresting everybody involved.
Now, a good defense attorney could use at trial that Johnny was saving his own ass by acting as a CI, but keep in mind that less than 2% of criminal cases go to trial. The State has the defendants on tape, on video, on audio... You going to risk that a jury is going to say "well Johnny was a no good rat snitch, so I'm not going to convict?" Nope. All the defendants get a plea offer - do 3-5 years if you plea out, or risk 35 years if you take it to a jury.
So forget trying to tell "who's who" - it's not "undercover" if Johnny is just being Johnny.
As to your other questions, I agree with what everything said -
1) Can they get high with someone to, "prove" they are not undercover? ie. "Hey that guy might be a cop, make him smoke a joint with you before you sell to him. If he is a cop he wont smoke out."
Legally, no, they can't. But who would prosecute them? If (as has happened), someone is "asked" to get high at gunpoint to prove he/she isn't a cop, they do it, and report it to their superiors. So long as they follow procedure and report what happened, they're not going to arrest the cop nor prosecute him / her.
2) Can an undercover solicit a controlled substance or does the suspected dealer have to approach the undercover? ie. Out of the blue a person who you have met a couple of times, even given a ride to a few events but do not know all that well nor do you talk to this person all that often sends a text asking if you can hook it up. Can an undercover do that or would that fall under entrapment? Would the person who the undercover was trying to build a case on have to send the text out to or start the conversation by what ever means with the undercover asking if he needs anything?
As said several times by other posters, entrapment involves the defendant proving (and the defendant has to prove it, the State doesn't have to disprove it) that she / he would not have committed the crime had the police not set up the circumstances. Even though DeLorean used it successfully (Google it if you don't now I mean), it's a risky sell to a jury. I think it's second only to the insanity defense as far as the public not understanding what it's about and how it works in the real world (those found not guilty by reason of insanity don't walk out of the courtroom, they go to institutions that are, by and large, worse than prisons. And they stay there until a judge is convinced that the defendant is no longer a danger to himself or others -- that can mean life. Google around on it ... the average person acquitted for insanity does almost as much time as someone found guilty of the same offense).
3) I'm pretty sure that this one is an urban legend lie but, does an undercover have to identify his or her self as a cop when asked if they are an undercover?
Uhhh - no. Some urban legends are really silly, including this one. It's like the belief that a vice cop can't get totally naked on the job - with the hooker therefore insisting that prices not be discussed until the customer is nude.
The only thing relevant about this (either example) is that cops actively try to get people to believe it. I'd be a tad suspicious of someone who says it.
4) How [intricate] and expensive would a sting be? How much money would the DEA drop into a sting to [create] the facade of the undercover being an average raver kid?
Huh? First, average raver kids are less likely than others to say "no way" when given an "out" to be a CI after they get busted with 100 tabs of X (which I assume is a raver's favorite flavor of drugs), so I'm not sure where you're going with the question. No more expensive than any other operation.
It's all politics anyway -- the DA pours enough resources into it to make some nice headlines around election time and to show how "tough on crime" they are by busting people who are hurting no one but themselves.
Ask yourself this......
How many people have you known who had a serious drug problem but cleaned up and stopped using? (Let me guess.... between 5 and 50).
Now, of those people.... how many quit because drugs were no longer available? (Let me guess.... zero).
The "war on drugs" continues to be utter insanity. To the extent the State should be is involved at all, it is a health issue. Nonviolent drug offenders are just grist for the mill of politics - never mind that it costs $40,000-$70,000 (depending on which state or federal institution and what level of security) per inmate, per year to lock these people up. Never mind that children have their parents ripped away from them and lives are destroyed by carrying the weight of a conviction.
Why never mind all that? Because, as big as those considerations are, they pale in comparison to the real reason to stop the "war" and release the nonviolent offenders we've already locked up: Terrorism and other threats to to the country are real. If we take all those hardworking DEA and ATF and FBI agents and state, county and local police and put them to work for Homeland Security, might we spot and stop the next 9/11 before it hits?
Ehhh -- all too much sanity for our government to follow.
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