TRT and Collagen Synthesis

[RedRum OG]

The cancer risk of normal levels of TRT seem to be negligible, so I am more inclined toward TRT than I am living with low T.

Either way it has potential to be a cardiac detriment, why not choose the one that makes you your best self, at least that's been my thinking for years

 

[Genetic Freak]

Well, as a Canadian, how it worked for me was, a blood panel showed severe deficiency of testosterone, I was put on 100mg cyp weekly, two weeks or so another blood test was done and my dose adjusted to 80mg, then another test 2 weeks later, and then I was given an Rx for 1000mg multidose vials of Depo-Test refilled every so-and-so weeks, and left to my own devices
Mind you I had an endocrinologist who was doing his job and not just giving one size fits all Rxs with no testing at all.


I'm pretty sure the ester hydrolysis is gradual enough that there are not really major spikes and more of a steady state level achieved over time.

There is considerable data on pharmacokinetics of steroid esters, showing testosterone can be detected in blood 2 hours post injection, elevating to an appreciable peak between 1-2 days (dependant upon ester, and dose), decreasing to correlate with the half life of the ester attached to 17-beta OH..

 

[Foreigner]

Either way it has potential to be a cardiac detriment, why not choose the one that makes you your best self, at least that's been my thinking for years

I agree. Because I am working with an MD, I would have regular monitoring to check heart health etc. I would also of course self-monitor. I think guys who do the underground route with no medical monitoring are taking big risks, but to each their own. In Canada the medical system is so terrible that I can understand why some guys just buy their stuff from a UGL.

 

[RedRum OG]

I agree. Because I am working with an MD, I would have regular monitoring to check heart health etc. I would also of course self-monitor. I think guys who do the underground route with no medical monitoring are taking big risks, but to each their own. In Canada the medical system is so terrible that I can understand why some guys just buy their stuff from a UGL.

In the US it took me 18 months to go from my first low test results to actually having a bottle of test in my hand, and my case was incredibly straight forward.

Definitely went UGL after that

 

[Foreigner]

In the US it took me 18 months to go from my first low test results to actually having a bottle of test in my hand, and my case was incredibly straight forward.

Definitely went UGL after that

I guess I'm lucky then... as long as my MD gives me the dose level I need. In Canada they have a standard dosing protocol of 100mg T every 2 weeks, which is absurd.

Are you taking standard TRT doses or supraphysiologic doses? I'm curious what your experience has been like, if you're open to sharing.

 

[RedRum OG]

I guess I'm lucky then... as long as my MD gives me the dose level I need. In Canada they have a standard dosing protocol of 100mg T every 2 weeks, which is absurd.

Are you taking standard TRT doses or supraphysiologic doses? I'm curious what your experience has been like, if you're open to sharing.

Yeah there's the same standard dosing protocol here in the USA, which is what made the delay so frustrating. I had very obviously methadone-induced low T, and instead of just accepting that and getting me on test shots, they tried a bunch of other "lifestyle improvement" BS, tested me for every other possible source of low T, took 18 months.


I have done both full "juicing" in my days of bodybuilding enthusiasm (high dose test, nandrolone, tren, anavar, etc), and pretty close to true TRT since then (no more than 125mg/week last ~4yrs)

Please, ask away

 

[Foreigner]

Yeah there's the same standard dosing protocol here in the USA, which is what made the delay so frustrating. I had very obviously methadone-induced low T, and instead of just accepting that and getting me on test shots, they tried a bunch of other "lifestyle improvement" BS, tested me for every other possible source of low T, took 18 months.

Sometimes I think it's just lingering ignorance from the 90s about T, based on stereotypes, that causes doctors to be so afraid. T is powerful but their reluctance to use it is really harmful in some cases. The conspiracy theorist in me also wonders if they just want to keep men weak. All the women in my life are easily able to obtain estrogen and progesterone creams/injections during (peri)menopause, no problem, yet men approaching middle age are an almost completely neglected cohort for andropause, even when the symptoms are obvious.

In my city, all the men I know on T are obtaining it from UGLs because they can't afford private clinics and their public-care MDs either won't give it to them or will only offer suppression-level doses. I'm literally the only one I know who can get it legit + at the dose I truly need. Yes there are definitely men who see it as a bodybuilding tool, but some of these guys are clearly low T and not getting proper help. Meanwhile if you say you're FTM trans they will prescribe T tomorrow. The system really needs to change.

I have done both full "juicing" in my days of bodybuilding enthusiasm (high dose test, nandrolone, tren, anavar, etc), and pretty close to true TRT since then (no more than 125mg/week last ~4yrs)

Please, ask away

I have been looking all of those "juicing" add ons, especially oxandrolone because the bone density improvements are extremely rapid. I am very conservative about adding things to my health regimen these days, especially when it comes to hormones. I'm also concerned about toxicity etc, especially for the liver. Adding TRT + HCG is already a big leap for me. However, if my goal is bone density, then I almost wonder if another add on could get me to where I want to be faster, so that maybe I could scale back hormone protocols sooner. I am still relatively young, after all. However, the long-term low-T might not be possible to reconcile.

 

[RedRum OG]

Sometimes I think it's just lingering ignorance from the 90s about T, based on stereotypes, that causes doctors to be so afraid. T is powerful but their reluctance to use it is really harmful in some cases. The conspiracy theorist in me also wonders if they just want to keep men weak. All the women in my life are easily able to obtain estrogen and progesterone creams/injections during (peri)menopause, no problem, yet men approaching middle age are an almost completely neglected cohort for andropause, even when the symptoms are obvious.

In my city, all the men I know on T are obtaining it from UGLs because they can't afford private clinics and their public-care MDs either won't give it to them or will only offer suppression-level doses. I'm literally the only one I know who can get it legit + at the dose I truly need. Yes there are definitely men who see it as a bodybuilding tool, but some of these guys are clearly low T and not getting proper help. Meanwhile if you say you're FTM trans they will prescribe T tomorrow. The system really needs to change.



I have been looking all of those "juicing" add ons, especially oxandrolone because the bone density improvements are extremely rapid. I am very conservative about adding things to my health regimen these days, especially when it comes to hormones. I'm also concerned about toxicity etc, especially for the liver. Adding TRT + HCG is already a big leap for me. However, if my goal is bone density, then I almost wonder if another add on could get me to where I want to be faster, so that maybe I could scale back hormone protocols sooner. I am still relatively young, after all. However, the long-term low-T might not be possible to reconcile.

Agree the system is trash. The private docs charge 10x what it is worth, but get a bottle in your hand immediately. Legitimate need does little to speed things along, unfortunately, as you said, but money does, even more unfortunately

I don't want to get into the debate, but I also agree it sucks that trans people are free to decide to modify their bodies but nobody else can. At least that freedom is there, but it should be for everybody.

P.s. if you want bone density, lift heavy! I have impossibly dense bones that I attribute to lifting since a teenager. Even very lean, I weigh about 40lbs more than I appear. Just an idea.

 

[Foreigner]

Agree the system is trash. The private docs charge 10x what it is worth, but get a bottle in your hand immediately. Legitimate need does little to speed things along, unfortunately, as you said, but money does, even more unfortunately

I don't want to get into the debate, but I also agree it sucks that trans people are free to decide to modify their bodies but nobody else can. At least that freedom is there, but it should be for everybody.

P.s. if you want bone density, lift heavy! I have impossibly dense bones that I attribute to lifting since a teenager. Even very lean, I weigh about 40lbs more than I appear. Just an idea.

I started lifting young but didn't seek proper lifting advice until much later, so I probably didn't get the bone density benefits that you have. I keep reading in the literature that osteoporosis is not reversible, and yet in the patient communities men are posting their DEXA scans (before and after) using TRT and/or other add ons, and their scans do improve after 1-2 years of lifting + mineral supplements. So I gotta try!

I agree re: trans folks. I have nothing against them seeking HRT. I just think it's unfair that women and trans people can get hormones instantly upon request and men can't easily get TRT when they are middle aged and hypogonadal. Seems like a conspiracy.

Do you mind if I PM you with some other questions?

 

[Ismene2]

Anyone notice T has a great effect on your skin and facial fat? Just seems to make your skin flawless and trim away chin blubber.

 

[RedRum OG]

I started lifting young but didn't seek proper lifting advice until much later, so I probably didn't get the bone density benefits that you have. I keep reading in the literature that osteoporosis is not reversible, and yet in the patient communities men are posting their DEXA scans (before and after) using TRT and/or other add ons, and their scans do improve after 1-2 years of lifting + mineral supplements. So I gotta try!

I agree re: trans folks. I have nothing against them seeking HRT. I just think it's unfair that women and trans people can get hormones instantly upon request and men can't easily get TRT when they are middle aged and hypogonadal. Seems like a conspiracy.

Do you mind if I PM you with some other questions?

Go for it, my friend! Whenever my limited knowledge base/experience can be of help, it's always available!

Also agree that osteoporosis seems like it should be reversible (before a certain extreme point, maybe) despite some of the studies.

 

[GHBoners]

I'm on 87.5 mg/week of T enanthate and sit at ~900 total T (sorry I forgot the metric, but it's the usual American metric). I'm injecting daily microdoses and have been for ~2 years actually. I used to be a stressed out mess with insomnia issues and an inability to avoid binges once every 3 months (my highest score) in some hard drugs despite multiple efforts (psychotherapy like EMDR, rigorous meditation practice, addiction counseling). I could go 1-3 months without anything, but it was like holding my breath. TRT fixed all that and I got my libido back to normal. I haven't used hard drugs for over a year now. This has never happened to me since I started taking hard drugs at the age of 17 (I'm 32). As a side effect, I am slowly becoming more confident and have found my dream job. The phobia of oral presentations I had for years is slowly eroding with each presentation and I recently presented in front of 150 pairs, whereas presenting in front of my team of 5 people 4 years ago caused me insomnia and anxiety over 3 weeks before, 6 or 7 years ago it was 1+ months and it was a huge factor in my drug abuse. I suspect the reason for my low T was a sensitivity to the negative impact of dissociative compounds on LH/FSH production. In 3 blood tests in 3 months before jumping into the juice, I was between 100 and 400 total T. I'm not saying everyone should do it, quite the contrary, but it was a game changer for me. An endocrinologist Pr. is following me. Muscularly, I don't feel like I recover any better at 32 than I did at 25. I'm just concerned that some men don't recover from infertility due to TRT. If you have any statistics or information on this. The only side effect I have is an increase in back acne, which I had before TRT. OK, I've put quite a bit of personal data here, but it's to show what a "high normal level" can do when you start at the low end of the range (not even that low for my blood at 400, their range seems broken to me) and you may need it.

 

[Phobos]

Anyone notice T has a great effect on your skin and facial fat? Just seems to make your skin flawless and trim away chin blubber.

T made my already oily skin much oilier, and my pores bigger.
I suspect I convert to DHT in the skin a lot.

 

[sekio]

In Canada they have a standard dosing protocol of 100mg T every 2 weeks, which is absurd.

Somehow my doc must have missed the memo. I was started on 100mg every week, and when discharged from the hospital, was prescribed 1000mg vials of testosterone and left to my own devices.
Sometimes I will give myself a cheeky increased dose of T every so often. Either 150mg or 200mg.
(Also, testosterone cypionate (mw 412.6) contains about 70% testosterone (mw 288;4))

 

[Serotonin101]

T made my already oily skin much oilier, and my pores bigger.
I suspect I convert to DHT in the skin a lot.

Same, high dose test makes me look "old". Especially as I lean out and lose the facial fat and water stores. Skin just looks beat the fuck up. 500 and under per week and I look my age. Trt and I look younger.

 

[Genetic Freak]

I started lifting young but didn't seek proper lifting advice until much later, so I probably didn't get the bone density benefits that you have. I keep reading in the literature that osteoporosis is not reversible, and yet in the patient communities men are posting their DEXA scans (before and after) using TRT and/or other add ons, and their scans do improve after 1-2 years of lifting + mineral supplements. So I gotta try!

I agree re: trans folks. I have nothing against them seeking HRT. I just think it's unfair that women and trans people can get hormones instantly upon request and men can't easily get TRT when they are middle aged and hypogonadal. Seems like a conspiracy.

Do you mind if I PM you with some other questions?

If employing TRT estrogen should be within physiological parameters, we know estrogen modulates bone synthesis via RANK-L.

Maybe look into supplementation of vitamin K2, in conjunction with 5000iu vitamin D3, as part of a healthy diet.
Vitamin K2 facilitates the transition of calcium from blood back into bone.

 

[Foreigner]

If employing TRT estrogen should be within physiological parameters, we know estrogen modulates bone synthesis via RANK-L.

Maybe look into supplementation of vitamin K2, in conjunction with 5000iu vitamin D3, as part of a healthy diet.
Vitamin K2 facilitates the transition of calcium from blood back into bone.

Thanks for the suggestions, I've got these covered already. Plus it's summertime here in BC and the sunshine is doing wonders for my vitamin D, among other things