tropa-cocaine

[SpiralusSancti]

Hmmm... If 100mg feels as about 10mg of cocaine than doing grams of this stuff could be only way to get desired effects....not healthy.

Really strange that there doesn't seem to be anything in the RC world that can replace coke, besides some unusual euphoric cathinones like NEP but those have very different effects overall.

Well once upon a time neither there were disso, opiod and benzo replacements. Should I add for a reason? During times when RC scene was very exotic market where very high percentage of people on it were both users and whatever. Ofc generally excluding producers that in the beginning were rarely specialized in producing only RC and those who were, in a sense, have been more part of a black than grey market. Same people and people around them often had experience with substances that can provide some benefit, or even be hugely beneficial to some but are doom for most... Since than a lot changed and changed in manner of catastrophism or in a manner of absolute commercialization.
But why there's no something-coke-something analogues as good or better than coke hitting the market than? For simple reason coke syth is hard. O yea, didn't someone pointed out to me that there are already some quite acceptable coke synths? If so, naturally expect analogues. With coke it's kind of like with LSD analogues, wild amount of modifications can be done but how many will result in good product? And of those how many are not insanely hard to synth and a good product? Not a lot...

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Another rather important fact is that coke is extracted so there are no precursors or precursors of a precursors of precursors floating around in insane amounts that could be used to make legal version.

 

[G_Chem]

It’s my belief that tropacocaine when found as an impurity in cocaine samples, reduces the overall positive effects. So does benzoylecgonine.. Methylecgonidine increases the initial positive effects but then makes for a much worse comedown and possible paranoia.

-GC

 

[SpiralusSancti]

It’s my belief that tropacocaine when found as an impurity in cocaine samples, reduces the overall positive effects. So does benzoylecgonine.. Methylecgonidine increases the initial positive effects but then makes for a much worse comedown and possible paranoia.

-GC

Coke with more other alkaloids beside coke can be more relaxing and mellow. And not necessary in a bad way (at least for my taste) but still in a such a way that loads of people prefer it mixed with caffeine to get more of the push they expect from coke.

 

[Soulfake]

For simple reason coke syth is hard. O yea, didn't someone pointed out to me that there are already some quite acceptable coke synths? If so, naturally expect analogues. With coke it's kind of like with LSD analogues, wild amount of modifications can be done but how many will result in good product? And of those how many are not insanely hard to synth and a good product? Not a lot...

That sounds right, but does it really need the hard to synth tropane-structure? Basically only the tropane unit is problematic as far as I heard, if you could replace it with something cheaper (like norbornane) it could be way more economic.

At least analogues like those (totally random drawn) seem to have some probability of achieving the desired effects:

Of cause it's even harder to find something similar to coke that uses a different base molecule, but look at how similar Amphetamine and Phenmetrazine or Fencamfamine are, or all those opioid analogues that can have similar euphoric and quality effects to morphine but use much simpler structures.

I mean it doesn't even need to be a full replacement for coke, basically anything stronger than Dimethocaine with similar "sunny" effects that no other stims than coke can provide would be good enough in my opinion, and that should be totally in the realm of possibilities in terms of cheap synth's etc. Imagine the effect-profile of Dimethocaine but about as potent as 4F-MPH or even just MPH without the dirtyness of phenidates, it would be the best rc stim I could imagine at the moment.

Maybe the right information just needs to get to the right places in order to get some funding and research going, it's not like the big RC companies like Lizard wouldn't have enough money to do that, they throw out tens of thousands for some trash cannabinoid compounds that have no effect, so they could also fund a coke project.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

That sounds right, but does it really need the hard to synth tropane-structure? Basically only the tropane unit is problematic as far as I heard, if you could replace it with something cheaper (like norbornane) it could be way more economic.

It doesn't need to be so, but tropan-structure is a logical starting point as coke is so different from substances that on paper should resemble it pretty closely, I mean effects.
Given enough resources and enough will I'm sure that some cheap tropan alkaloid could be used to produce wonderful coke alternative. But screening trough wast number of mostly totally useless compounds is needed and than building from there. Not that it wasn't done at all but coke market makes such ventures not too lucrative.
That's at least how it seems to me. Few coke alternatives of any use, like DMC all seem to have significant drawbacks to real coke but that doesn't mean there aren't one that would be as good or better than coke.

Of cause it's even harder to find something similar to coke that uses a different base molecule, but look at how similar Amphetamine and Phenmetrazine or Fencamfamine are, or all those opioid analogues that can have similar euphoric and quality effects to morphine but use much simpler structures.

I think it's harder depending on how high you put the bar for what's close enough to coke. Hell, even MDPV can be viewed as something somewhat close to coke, while not being that similar on the other hand. And with such drugs it comes to preference, and someone liking MDPV more than coke wouldn't surprise me at all. But most coke lovers don't want that different effects. I said MDPV but there are a lot of things that could be useful as a drug that's (ab)used in a similar way as coke.
Also it isn't impossible you end up with something totally unrelated to coke molecule yet having weirdly similar effects to it but it's sure harder to find such thing, when even stuff really chemically related just doesn't cut it.

I mean it doesn't even need to be a full replacement for coke, basically anything stronger than Dimethocaine with similar "sunny" effects that no other stims than coke can provide would be good enough in my opinion, and that should be totally in the realm of possibilities in terms of cheap synth's etc. Imagine the effect-profile of Dimethocaine but about as potent as 4F-MPH or even just MPH without the dirtyness of phenidates, it would be the best rc stim I could imagine at the moment.

To say best or worst is more fair imho. Coke can wreck people, close enough stim but tweaked a bit differently could wreck them even more.
Personally I would like to see much longer lasting, less cardiotoxic stuff that works great when taken orally. Well in fact I would be also content with coke replacement that when snorted works like when real coke eaten.
Most almost-like-coke RCs, if they would be potent and really similar might end in reckless use. And would they be cheap, people would end up using even more than coke.

In short, creating coke replacement that wont casue more harm than real coke is a hell of a task.

Maybe the right information just needs to get to the right places in order to get some funding and research going, it's not like the big RC companies like Lizard wouldn't have enough money to do that, they throw out tens of thousands for some trash cannabinoid compounds that have no effect, so they could also fund a coke project.

Had no idea they are in cannabinoid biz. Maybe they are on the search for some new but in effects and safety on par with "original synth noids"?

 

[Soulfake]

Not sure if Lizard is working with noids but others do it, insane masses of either toxic or inactive trash, just look up the structures of the newest noids and try not to laugh ^^

Do you think it would be possible to have something longer lasting that wouldn't cause craving anyway? Most long lasting alternatives like Troparil, 4F-MPH, DPMP, etc. seem to have very constant effects quality wise, but after you get to the ceiling level of neurotransmitter modulation that can be achieved at a certain dose, you may still feel bored after a few hours. This is also my experience with many other compound classes, like cannabinoids and downers. I always loved noids like AB-Fubinaca that were just right in between being too crack-like with short effects like AM2201 and being too long lasting like CP 47,497 from the original Spice of 2008, or stuff like HHC-P/THC-P which feels very similar to CP47 and you wake up just as high as jo went to bed.

If you have very constant effects for so long there is just not enough change in your consciousness so to say, longer lasting drugs like MDMA or LSD have very changing effects over their duration while other drugs feel more or less solid and constant, so you "need" the ups and downs through the short duration. And it's also nice to be able to have a line an hour or two before bed and knowing you will be able to sleep, instead of always having to calculate the last dose and often falling into a low because bed time is too near to redose something long legged.

I think a duration of 2-4 hours would be perfect, doses in the 10-100mg range, no depletion of neurotransmitters, no VMAT2-dangers, not damaging to the heart...well I guess it's really quite impossible to find something with all those qualities while still being as good as coke.

Maybe having a hit every couple hours is somewhat needed for a drug to be enjoyed recreationally in most cases? But on the other hand there haven't been any long lasting analogues that had the same effect profile in terms of serotonergic effects, which could be much more likely be the cause of most replacements lacking the special feeling of coke.

 

[AlsoTapered]

Extensive QSAR work has been carried out and meta and especially para substitution of the benzene ring substantially increases the DRI of tropacaine derivatives. Now p-F tropacaine (WIN-35428) HAS turned up in a small way and i around 40% the potency of cocaine BUT it's not the most potent by a long way.

https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/pdf/cocaineanalogs.pdf

I've posted the above elsewhere but it covers all of the known scaffolds that bind in a similar manner to cocaine - thousands of them.

An appropriate search of PubChem will highlight then.

It's worth closely looking at the DAT/NET/SERT selectivity.

I'm sure people will quickly recognize that other para substitutions appear to be significantly more potent although to the best of my knowledge they have never been seen on ANY market. Why? Well, if I were guessing, I would suggest that the p-F was produced with a view towards PET and so found a practical use.

It's just that while people have stated and restated that the appropriate precursor IS available and can actually be made from a common natural source in one step, it still requires quite a sophisticated lab setup. Cocaine production is a very low-tech activity since the plant provides the product - all people are doing is extracting it.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Do you think it would be possible to have something longer lasting that wouldn't cause craving anyway?

I think it's more realistic to expect only less fiendish stuff but cravings will always be there if something feels great and you do a lot or often.

Most long lasting alternatives like Troparil, 4F-MPH, DPMP, etc. seem to have very constant effects quality wise, but after you get to the ceiling level of neurotransmitter modulation that can be achieved at a certain dose, you may still feel bored after a few hours. This is also my experience with many other compound classes, like cannabinoids and downers. I always loved noids like AB-Fubinaca that were just right in between being too crack-like with short effects like AM2201 and being too long lasting like CP 47,497 from the original Spice of 2008, or stuff like HHC-P/THC-P which feels very similar to CP47 and you wake up just as high as jo went to bed.

Out of stims you mentioned I tried none. Closest I did try methyl and ethylphenidate and MDPV. I liked ethylphenidate the most. It was fun stim and I'm not a big fan of stims but I love more recreational and less functional stuff.
I loved both ab-fubinaca and am-2201 but o boy, my short, about one month excursion in synth cannabinoids world was hell of a mess ride. I went trough grams and grams of pure powder dangerously fast and in a matter of just a couple of weeks I was waking up in the middle of the night to take a huge bong rip. And initial WDs after stopping where horror but passed very soon and luckily normal weed started working too. But sometimes I wonder if cuz of that now I build up tolerance to weed a lot faster.
I even loved that roller-coaster am-2201 high, but those were likely dangerously high doses tho am-2201 was no where as dangerous as cannabinoids that followed, not to mention those now on the market as you say that are kind of drug like poisons more than proper drugs. I'm still sure I ended up smoking both am-2201, ab-fubinaca and other 8 I had in lethal doses in a matter of a week or two, lethal for someone without tolerance.
Synth cannabinoids are hell of a drugs, very dangerous imo and ime. I would say much more than almost any group of drugs.

If you have very constant effects for so long there is just not enough change in your consciousness so to say, longer lasting drugs like MDMA or LSD have very changing effects over their duration while other drugs feel more or less solid and constant, so you "need" the ups and downs through the short duration.

While I find MDMA pretty consistent in effects and it became too predictable for my taste, and I think I got more or less everything I could from that drug, but LSD always delivers unique experience. With drugs that are similar every time you take them I think that up - downs you mention help a lot that drug stays interesting. Very intense and short duration stuff tends to tingle at least a bit even after many redoses or long use, sure hit it hard enough and that to will be ruined but there's definitely something to it.

And it's also nice to be able to have a line an hour or two before bed and knowing you will be able to sleep, instead of always having to calculate the last dose and often falling into a low because bed time is too near to redose something long legged.

I think a duration of 2-4 hours would be perfect, doses in the 10-100mg range, no depletion of neurotransmitters, no VMAT2-dangers, not damaging to the heart...well I guess it's really quite impossible to find something with all those qualities while still being as good as coke.

I think it's possible, in fact I'm positive it's possible just hard. Seems too hard atm to make it a quest for some big players. And for such a thing even biggest RC companies are nothing compared to big pharma. And they either already have something on par with what you describe or would have it surprisingly fast if drugs were totally legalized on a big scale.
Tho dose range is of not of big importance imho and it's also possible that hypothetical drug you described works in microgram scale or in multigram scale.

Maybe having a hit every couple hours is somewhat needed for a drug to be enjoyed recreationally in most cases? But on the other hand there haven't been any long lasting analogues that had the same effect profile in terms of serotonergic effects, which could be much more likely be the cause of most replacements lacking the special feeling of coke.

Well there's something to it too. @AlsoTaperd wrote how it's possible that opiates of lesser potency tend to feel better cuz they detach receptors and attach to them again so I guess in a sense you could say same that cokes short duration too gives that boost back every time you do a bump, even pharmacological action isn't comparable.

 

[izo]

Given enough resources and enough will I'm sure that some cheap tropan alkaloid could be used to produce wonderful coke alAlternative.

I think that cocaine is more or less the best what you can get out of the cocaine Template. Maybe there are nice less conformatory restricted analogs when you play around with the methyl ecgonine rest but like with morphine nature seems to have made the best possible ligand you can think of.