Tretinoin (high dose vitamin A topical skin cream) causing depression (?)

[JohnBoy2000]

Its oral formulation "isotretinoin" is well know to cause psychiatric issues, depression, panic, psychosis, and several suicides have been attributed to its use.

I've been using the topical cream in combination with derma-rolling on my face for the past three weeks.

0.025%.

Yesterday at a social event I noticed the distinct presence of a very uncharacteristic low mood, poor interaction resultantly, and the subsequent emergence of panic.

I figure perhaps it's the derma-rolling causing the topical product to get into the blood?

Thereby causing an normally uncharacteristic side-effect for a skin-cream.

........

In any case I decided to shelve its use for a few weeks at least to see if the low mood lifts (which I have no doubt it will).

It has such a wonderful effect on skin however, at some point I'd like to consider using it again, obviously without the derma rolling.

Questions being, some gentle 0.5 mm needle derma-rolling, would it make THAT much of a difference in product skin-penetration?
Such that, perhaps I just respond badly to the product (I have a HYPERSENSITIVITY to any chemicals, vitamin D supplements even).

Perhaps regardless of derma-rolling, sufficient product would penetrate the skin to cause these psychiatric effects, therefore tretinoin is perhaps one of those products I'll just have to avoid??

........

I seriously doubt anyone has had this type of experience with topical tretinoin cream but, perhaps there are thoughts on skin penetration and presence in the blood with or without use of a 0.5 mm derma roller?

Comparative example being minoxidil - some folk legitimately get heart issues from applying this on their scalp - even though it's only intended to take effect topically, clearly enough gets into the blood to be appreciable?

 

[Hexagon Sun]

I have no solid info to offer, but just to ask you to repeat the experiment another day that you are going to stay at home. Im confident you are going to get the depression again. Practice always beats all the theories

Theres a guy on twitter called Nutrition detective or something like this with such an advanced knowlegde in a nutrition and biohacking topics.

He swears than Vitamin A is a poison, and that have a lot of clients recovering from all kind of shit just avoiding Vit A foods and betacarotenes altogether. Guy has a ton of solid info and Im starting to believe than the Vita A as a poison is a trend that we will start to see in the coming months/years

 

[JohnBoy2000]

So far, this is about the most relevant information I could find:

One of the many benefits of micro-needling is that it can increase the absorption rate of topically applied skin care products. The skin is a barrier and can impede the absorption of products. Clinically conducted studies have shown that micro-needling can increase serum absorption by as much as 300%.

Micro-needling and product absorption - AcuLift™ Skincare

By Michelle Gellis-acupuncture physician One of the many benefits of micro-needling is that it can increase the absorption rate of topically applied skin care products. The skin is a barrier and can impede the absorption of products. Clinically conducted studies […]

aculiftskincare.com

This would suggest absorption happens, but is increased in derma rolling.

In my case, given my response to tretinoin, I can't absorb so much as 1% of this into the blood.

........

So I guess I'll just have to skip that component of skin care.

 

[mauve]

Its oral formulation "isotretinoin" is well know to cause psychiatric issues, depression, panic, psychosis, and several suicides have been attributed to its use.

I've been using the topical cream in combination with derma-rolling on my face for the past three weeks.

0.025%.

Yesterday at a social event I noticed the distinct presence of a very uncharacteristic low mood, poor interaction resultantly, and the subsequent emergence of panic.

I figure perhaps it's the derma-rolling causing the topical product to get into the blood?

Thereby causing an normally uncharacteristic side-effect for a skin-cream.

........

In any case I decided to shelve its use for a few weeks at least to see if the low mood lifts (which I have no doubt it will).

It has such a wonderful effect on skin however, at some point I'd like to consider using it again, obviously without the derma rolling.

Questions being, some gentle 0.5 mm needle derma-rolling, would it make THAT much of a difference in product skin-penetration?
Such that, perhaps I just respond badly to the product (I have a HYPERSENSITIVITY to any chemicals, vitamin D supplements even).

Perhaps regardless of derma-rolling, sufficient product would penetrate the skin to cause these psychiatric effects, therefore tretinoin is perhaps one of those products I'll just have to avoid??

........

I seriously doubt anyone has had this type of experience with topical tretinoin cream but, perhaps there are thoughts on skin penetration and presence in the blood with or without use of a 0.5 mm derma roller?

Comparative example being minoxidil - some folk legitimately get heart issues from applying this on their scalp - even though it's only intended to take effect topically, clearly enough gets into the blood to be appreciable?

Absolutely possible that the topical version of retin a can cause this.
(I had a slight panic state when first starting on 0.025% for the first month)

I decided to use it every other day and the symptoms went. I didn't get any of this skin purging they talk about. But my skin was peeling
I've been using it for over 2 years daily and chemical peels every couple of months. Too scared to try Botox or dermarolling yet.

However dermarolling will definitely increase the absorption of retin a. In fact dermarolling is used for that specific purpose in certain treatments that requires topical products to penetrate deep into the skin.

I would say try using retin a without dermarolling. Moisturize with the most simple cream you can find as your skin can be sensitive. You will notice a smoother texture quite quickly, however it takes about 6 months to really notice a difference.

I'm now on 0.05%

Regards to it being toxic, I've also heard this.
It was a small study conducted in Australia or the US I can't remember but people using retin a had a higher chance of death. Again I just remember it being a small study and the results we're not conclusive

oh forgot to mention that you should not take vitamin a supplements whilst using retin a

Hope this helps

 

[JohnBoy2000]

I continued to use retin-A at the same frequency, cutting out all other chemicals (paracetamol in my case).

The symptoms remained.

That means that yes, it appears almost certain in my case, topical retin-A is legitimately causing panic/depression.

Poison shit for me personally.

I also cancelled an order of regular retinol moisturizer.

I don't think I can tolerate any dose of this.

That might be excessive but I'll refrain from retin-A use now and see how I feel in the coming week or two.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

Quick update:

Discontinued topical retin-A.

All symptoms completely vanished.

Depression, doom, social dysfunction = all gone.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

Retinoids, anxiety and peripartum depressive symptoms among Chinese women: a prospective cohort study

The current study aimed to investigate whether serum RBP levels can be a key predictor of peripartum depression (PPD).This was a prospective cohort study, conducted at a general teaching hospital in South China. Research participants were evaluated at ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Are retinoids a depressant?

Retinoids, Vitamin A and its derivatives, have been linked to neuropsychiatric symptoms including depression [11]. Excess accumulation of Vitamin A has been reported to induce depression [12].

 

[JohnBoy2000]

I applied this horrible crap last night for skin whitening:

Unsure if it's coincidence but I feel AWFUL this morning.

Same slightly panicked feeling, slightly dizzy, depression etc. (all very uncharacteristic).

No idea what ingredient could cause this, Niacinamide, impatiens (flower extract), or perhaps simply being formulated in China.

Gone to the garbage never to return in any case.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

Backtracking here:

When I started using tretinoin, I began it at the same time as the "whitening" crap above.

When I discontinued tretinoin I concurrently discontinued that shit.

........

Then I sold all the tubes of tretinoin I had as I figured I could not use them.

As of yesterday, it's entirely possible that Chinese manufactored/formulated crap above messed with me.

........

It's also ENTIRELY possible that they BOTH messed with me, as I have a hypersensitivity to any potent chemical product.

In any case that whitening crap fucked me up real good.

I may re-try tretinoin exclusively, monotherapy, to determine with certainty whether it was responsible for causing depressive like effects as per previous.

 

[Serotonin101]

I'm curious to see if monotherapy or a different supplier may change the results for you

 

[JohnBoy2000]

I'm curious to see if monotherapy or a different supplier may change the results for you

Curious about that also, though cause of the side effects am quite reluctant to try.

Reading more and more about potential irritation and skin vulnerability to UV light, which makes it distinctly less appealing as an option.

From what I'm seeing, for some who commit to its use it can cause incredible results, but others seems to get comparable results from treatments that don't effect actual cellular function/gene-expression (which tretinoin does);

Micro-needling, chemical peels, etc.

 

[Hexagon Sun]

Vitamin A is a poison. Both oral or topical, as it absorbs so nicely.

Prediction: in 2-5 years it will be openly recognized as venom as now happens with seeds oils

 

[JohnBoy2000]

I tried a different high strength retinoid product called "retinaldehyde" (bought from a licensed dermatology clinic).

Exactly the same effect.

It's like taking a drug/medication that doesn't agree with you (or me).

It has an appreciable psychoactive effect making it intolerable in my case.

Retinoic-acid is just one of those applications I won't be using.

It's use is primarily skin texture and quality; which I believe I can substitute using mostly acid peels (such as TCA) and micro-needling.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

Following the retinaldehyde trial, I had to try tretinoin once more to assess for recurring side effects.

I applied it 30 minutes ago and am just beginning to feel almost dizzy.

To emphasize, I have a chemical-hypersensitivity.

But we'll see over the next couple days do the same side effects and symptoms emerge.

Early response is suggesting, yes - this is probably toxic shit.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

Vitamin A is a poison. Both oral or topical, as it absorbs so nicely.

Prediction: in 2-5 years it will be openly recognized as venom as now happens with seeds oils

I just want to draw attention to this, something I'm only aware of through experience.

Absorption of this topically is intimidating.

Within 30 minutes of topical application, I began to get that "head spin" nausea, clearly responding adversely.

Orally when consuming either medication or any chemical, effect may come about after 1 hour or so, and topical application of most chemicals can generate little to no outcome.

So yeah, vitamin A, it's absorption capability, not to be overlooked.

........

Just curious how you were aware of its absorption effectiveness?

Information gathered through that twitter page or that twitter dietician etc?

 

[JohnBoy2000]

Also, whether using pharmacy brand vitamin A concentration in skin care, or prescription strength as with retinoic acid, there is a consistent response.

A consistent effect (re what I've experienced).

Which varies according to concentration, the intensity of that effect is obviously proportional to its concentration in the associated formulation.

i.e. all topical vitamin A sucks (in my experience).

I don't use any oral supplements of any kind, but I'm just surprised that topically, the effect is real.

 

[Hexagon Sun]

I just want to draw attention to this, something I'm only aware of through experience.

Absorption of this topically is intimidating.

Within 30 minutes of topical application, I began to get that "head spin" nausea, clearly responding adversely.

Orally when consuming either medication or any chemical, effect may come about after 1 hour or so, and topical application of most chemicals can generate little to no outcome.

So yeah, vitamin A, it's absorption capability, not to be overlooked.

........

Just curious how you were aware of its absorption effectiveness?

Information gathered through that twitter page or that twitter dietician etc?

Yeah, I found it thru that guy. He´s years deep studing vitamin A toxicity/effects, and threating patients.

His tweeter if full of pearls and deserves a good study

 

[JohnBoy2000]

To clarify - as bluelight is based on Xenforo which is the most user friendly platform, I find it a great place to document these topics for my own personal future reference;

And the reference of others of course.

.......

In addition to tretinoin (retinoic acid), I have experienced psychiatric symptoms from other topical creams.

One most recent being exacerbation of tinnitus.

Most recently, these was from a damn eye cream of all things (trying to tend those fine lines).

I've read eye creams can have more active ingredients than face creams - but I couldn't identify what active ingredient may have been responsible for this current symptom.

I’ve had tinnitus all my life. Started using retinol a while ago and I noticed in the last week or so my tinnitus is definitely more pronounced

Re tretinoin, another anecdotal report of CNS symptom emergence, despite it "just being a topical face cream".

 

[JohnBoy2000]

Tretinoin and Tinnitus, a phase IV clinical study of FDA data - eHealthMe

Tinnitus is found among people who take Tretinoin, especially for people who are male, 60+ old,

www.ehealthme.com

Common side effects people have besides Tinnitus *:​

1. Headache (pain in head): 8 people, 53.33%
2. Stress And Anxiety: 6 people, 40.00%
3. Depression: 5 people, 33.33%
4. Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder: 5 people, 33.33%
5. Dizziness: 5 people, 33.33%
6. Suicidal Ideation: 5 people, 33.33%
7. Chronic Kidney Disease: 4 people, 26.67%
8. Intervertebral Disc Degeneration (spinal disc degeneration): 4 people, 26.67%
9. Nausea (feeling of having an urge to vomit): 3 people, 20.00%
10. Chest Pain: 2 people, 13.33%

 

[JohnBoy2000]

NEJM Journal Watch: Summaries of and commentary on original medical and scientific articles from key medical journals

NEJM Journal Watch reviews over 250 scientific and medical journals to present important clinical research findings and insightful commentary

www.jwatch.org

The authors speculate that tretinoin was the cause of the neurotoxicity, since vitamin A and synthetic retinoids can cause headache, pseudotumor cerebri, irritability, ataxia, fatigue, depression, and psychosis.

Absolutely