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The word SORRY (I don't believe in apologies anymore.)

Forgiveness, like apologies help the person that they come from more than who it is directed at.

100%. We must allow ourselves to forgive others in order to truly forgive ourselves because we are all one.

Forgiving is a relief, because we are releasing something inside of us. It is entirely an internal process and doesn't rely upon apologies or accountability from anyone else.

The best thing someone can do (for themselves) is to forgive people who have caused them extreme pain. By forgiving the murderer of our wife or someone who raped our child, we are releasing ourselves not them. Only they can release themselves. We are, all, our own prisoners.

JackARoe said:
And when we finally get to that high level of life some of those memories may haunt us. Some may make us wish we did something different that we did. That is called growth.

Not sure I understood that part...? I will respond according to my best interpretation of what you're trying to say.

Approaching enlightenment, everything haunts us less and less until we just accept it and are at peace. There is zero regret in a non-dual state.
 
Not sure I understood that part...? I will respond according to my best interpretation of what you're trying to say.

Approaching enlightenment, everything haunts us less and less until we just accept it and are at peace. There is zero regret in a non-dual state.
Looking at my own life it may be true that I pretty much make choices that do not haunt me these days, but we for sure see the drama in other people's lives. So not much haunts me anymore. But as a humble human as I strive to live in the non dual state of course I fall back. It can't be sustained 100% of the time (for me)


One scenario that does haunt me is our family had a doberman named Cindy when I lived in Houston Tx as a guard dog that stayed at our store overnight and I took care of her like a pet. I left to move to California after a few years and no one took care of her (and I had a lot of cousins and uncles right there with her that said they would) and she drank anti freeze and died, so 45 years later that still haunts me. I say I am sorry under my breath every time I think of that but also knowing full well I could not stop my life and employment for a dog, even though I would now. :) I may have one or two things that disturb me when I look back. I *sort* of agree that trying to be a realized person that future mistakes do not happen as much. But I never knew what enlightenment meant. The closest I can come to a definition is learning to be kinder. The world is full of self congratulatory "enlightened" beings and that term can feed an ego for sure. I did use it a lot years ago but have dropped it. But to me if you are kind in most situations you are leaning towards enlightenment. A simple kind heart is gold. More so than meditating 5 hours a day and still not being kind.

I have often said the goal of life is to make peace with everything. We know some people whose son came out as gay but who's parents were not down with that and struggled with it. As soon as the father made peace with it and engaged he was much happier. Making peace with everything is part of the goal. Like my drug use, I totally made peace with it. ;) No more struggle.
 
@JackARoe

The ego of egolessness is definitely a thing. For sure. I'm not enlightened. I have a long way to go... and - like you said - it's probably impossible to fully sustain that state and continue resembling a human. But you can partially sustain it and if you do so the benefits are extraordinary.

Some may make us wish we did something different that we did. That is called growth.

I still don't understand this part. It sounds like you're equating regret with growth?

Like my drug use, I totally made peace with it. ;) No more struggle.

Me, too. It's such a relief not to hate on myself for who I am. I still aim to moderate use and stop using certain drugs, but I don't beat myself up about it at all. Not the slightest bit. It is what it is. Beating myself up (and trying to quit things I don't want to quit) was actually making my addiction issues worse... I like drugs. Some people like soccer. I don't. I prefer drugs. I'm tired of apologizing about it. I have never had a problem with psychedelic drugs. I love them to bits. It is other people who - with the best intentions - have projected (ignorant) fear onto me.

One scenario that does haunt me is our family had a doberman named Cindy when I lived in Houston Tx as a guard dog that stayed at our store overnight and I took care of her like a pet. I left to move to California after a few years and no one took care of her (and I had a lot of cousins and uncles right there with her that said they would) and she drank anti freeze and died, so 45 years later that still haunts me. I say I am sorry under my breath every time I think of that but also knowing full well I could not stop my life and employment for a dog, even though I would now. :)

Forgive yourself. I have done much worse than that and I've forgiven myself. People have done much worse to me and I have forgiven them.

It is a decision not to forgive yourself. You can forgive yourself right now while reading this sentence, if you want to.

I never knew what enlightenment meant. The closest I can come to a definition is learning to be kinder. The world is full of self congratulatory "enlightened" beings and that term can feed an ego for sure. I did use it a lot years ago but have dropped it. But to me if you are kind in most situations you are leaning towards enlightenment. A simple kind heart is gold. More so than meditating 5 hours a day and still not being kind.

Equating it to kindness is a mistake, I think. Being unkind will take you backwards, but only if you aren't at peace with your unkindness. You can always forgive yourself, no matter what you do.

Initially I thought sustaining non-dual was something like Pinocchio. If you do something wrong, your ego grows. But I'm starting to understand now that it only grows because of the shame associated with doing something wrong. There is no right and wrong. That is ego. Animals aren't concerned with morality. They just are.

It is easier to sustain non-dual if you are kind, because we are all one so to be unkind to others is to be unkind to yourself. So, if you fully understand that and integrate it into your core: being unkind doesn't make sense. But, again, that's ego.

To completely contradict myself, the natural state is love. So - if you are deep in non-dual - you won't be unkind to people because you will love everyone... but that state is nearly impossible to sustain every second of the day. We will encounter events in life that will thrust us back into ego and inevitably we will lash out and we will be unkind. In order to maintain non-duality, the best thing to do is to immediately forgive ourselves. Feel no shame. Feel no regret. We are imperfect beings. We are only human.

I realize that was quite rambling. I haven't put a lot of these thoughts into words. I am still a fledgling. I am still learning.

I have often said the goal of life is to make peace with everything.

100%

It's actually not difficult to recognize when we are not at peace with something. Shame, fear, regret, anger. Whenever you feel any of these things, let them go. Flush them. They do not serve you.

I am convinced that if I continue to do this on a daily basis, eventually these bad habits will dissipate.

I have basically no shame or regret (I don't regret anything I've ever done in my entire life or anything that has been done to me) and haven't for months. Like not even for a second. There have been a couple of moments of fear. COVID scared me and took me out of non-dual. I got paranoid when I had too much weed. I think those are the only two moments I've experienced fear since the 23rd of July this year. Anger is a much bigger problem for me, because I'm in an extremely dysfunctional relationship and eventually (after sitting calmly while my wife yells at me for hours) I will snap. But, I only snap when I drink alcohol. Otherwise I can just sit there for an indefinite amount of time and smile while I'm being abused.

The anger used to take me out of the non-dual state. Now, I don't let it. It is a decision to let it. It is a belief that this state is something that can be chipped away at. Really, it is always there. As soon as I go out now (if I do) I just go straight back in.

Fear is worse than anger.

Being fearless is the key, I think.

Fear is the core of anxiety and depression and hatred and sadness and everything we need to shed in order to get to a higher plane of existence.

There is only fear and love.

Donnie Darko was wrong.

...

EDIT: The best thing to do (rather than to be kind) is to be yourself always, which - if you're in touch with non-duality - is loving / kind.

Trying to be kind is ego. Kindness will just flow if you let go.
 
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What is the value of the word sorry, unless the recipient needs it? (And should they?)

Do we feed their insecurities?
Is that good for them in the long term?

I have always raised my daughter to apologise and say thank you, but I've never really believed in social obligation in any form.

We should be sorry internally.
We should be sorry kneeling in front of God.
That is repentance. That makes sense to me.

Being sorry to man is more like tucking our tail between our legs.

There are no mistakes in the universe.
My journey is part of a learning process.
So why apologise for part of that journey?

Does an apology imply regret or shame for our actions?
I don't regret anything and I have no shame.

Or do we just say it to make others feel better?
(They would ultimately feel better if they stopped needing apologies.)

We should forgive without apology.
We should forgive unconditionally.

I don't need anyone to apologise to me.
It does nothing for me.

Sorry doesn't change what happened.
It's a punishment. It's shaming. It is wrong.

...

Thoughts?

It seems that most apology seeking is actually the person seeking to be understood, to be loved. I think the nature of the apology depends on what happened. If you are a lover of truth and telling the truth is an extension of the Atman (I'm mentioning this because you know what I'm talking about), then you never intentionally set out to hurt anyone. Likewise, you never need an apology because nothing in you is holding on to anything. Similarly, even if someone hurt you, that hurt dissipates quickly because there is no grasping. But you can't fake it. If you're attached, you're attached. You can't act like nothing bothers you if it actually does. If you're attached, there's nothing wrong with that.

So, unless I'm really attached to what is happening and can't see through it - which happens still, because I'm not enlightened - then the process of apologizing or receiving an apology doesn't mean a lot to me.

At the highest level, nobody did anything to anybody.

That doesn't mean I don't care or won't apologize, I just know that where the apology is going is Samsaric in nature. The person who thinks they are a person who's hurt could change or disappear in the next 5 minutes when some other thought or feeling goes through their mind-body, and the apparent situation that they want an apology for will be ephemeral.

It's like a hologram asking for an apology before the switch is flipped and they dematerialize. I'll apologize to the hologram because God is love and why wouldn't you just love... but at the end of the day I know I'm just apologizing to Samsara, and God doesn't care about guilt or shame or any of it. It's God apologizing to God which is sort of a cosmic joke really.

I'm probably explaining this wrong and it's going to rub people the wrong way. I'm a compassionate person and don't want to hurt anybody, and would apologize if I unintentionally hurt them or if the lack of an apology would make them suffer. I'm more just putting words to the Emptiness of the experience.

I remember a reading by someone capturing Anandamayi Ma's words. A mother just lost her child and was in so much pain, and she said Ma's teachings were causing her further pain because it seemed to imply that her dead child didn't matter. She was outraged and said Ma should apologize to mothers everywhere for saying dead children don't matter (I'm paraphrasing). Ma looked at her and said something along the lines of, "There is only one Mother and we are all her Children; we can never be born or die to this Mother and we are together for all time. That Mother is Brahman. It's not that your child does not matter, but that you and he are united with God and can never be separated." The woman then understood and apologized for asking for an apology.

I think if people deeply understood their true nature they would be less offended by everything.
 
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Foreigner said:
That doesn't mean I don't care or won't apologize, I just know that where the apology is going is Samsaric in nature.

Great post again, brother.

Since creating this pots, I have started apologizing again.

At ceremony yesterday I apologized to a newcomer, then said "I'm not really sorry, I'm just being courteous."

I forgive people for everything they do in real time. I hold zero grudges. I forgive everyone for everything that they have ever said or done to me... but I realize that not everybody is there.

I don't want to be a prick to people, the word just doesn't make sense to me any more for the reasons you described. It does make sense to others though, who are not where I am.

Had a major breakthrough yesterday. Made peace with ego. Lots of realizations. Went deeper than ever before. Might write a trip report, I think.
 
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