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The use of drug addicts as an educational resource (Split from: What kind of training to doctors have in pharmacology ? How bout recreational drugs?)

I think weed is particularly dangerous for kids with social anxiety. It allows them to inhabit a happy little cocoon instead of learning a lot of social skills related to group integration and conflict resolution.

My kid who is 20 and has smoked for years has the social skills of an anxious 14 year old. Only problem is now he has a job that let him graduate to coke to manage anxiety in groups.
 
Curious, can you tell me more about being hurt by heavy marijuana use early on?

Yeah it ruined my mental health and caused me to miss out on crucial years of social development. I was a shy socially anxious teenager and as soon as I tried weed I instantly loved it. Before long I withdrew from the outside world and just smoked weed as much as I could. I believed it was expanding my mind and making me aware of the spirit world. I had been a hardcore atheist up until that point, so the discovery that there might be a spiritual world was a major event for me and I stupidly considered it worthy of all my attention and energy. I would spend hours just smoking weed, reading Buddhist books, books by Timothy Leary and meditating. My mental health rapidly declined and I started to experience panic attacks and extreme anxiety. The only time I'd feel right was if I could smoke weed and get into this special zone of mental silence that I would access through meditation.

I mention all this because I don't think marijuana would have affected me nearly as badly if I was the type of person to just smoke a joint and play video games or whatever. I believe my obsession with meditating while high to reach this special zone of total peace and silence that I identified with a type of enlightenment or "non game ecstasy" as Tim Leary called it, is what screwed me over so bad. The rest of my youth was wasted on an ill fated spiritual quest and I have never regained the mental health I enjoyed prior to heavy marijuana use. Of course I'd be a lot better off had I not done a plethora of other drugs throughout my 20s and 30s but the marijuana use is what sent me down this dark path.
 
Yeah and there's nothing wrong with examining the notion of addiction but if you're going to do that you have to apply the same standard to all drugs, because by the standards of the hardcore pot isn't addictive people cocaine isn't addictive either yet they will claim cocaine is super addictive ignoring the fact that cocaine doesn't really have much physical withdrawal. Honestly I had more trouble withdrawing from weed than cocaine and also found weed a lot harder to quit in a long term sense. When I used to smoke crack I would feel super addicted during a crack binge but I could easily go days without it after I fully came down. With weed, it just seemed to ingrain itself into my life so much more deeply and it was so much harder to give up both physically and mentally.
Yeah it ruined my mental health and caused me to miss out on crucial years of social development. I was a shy socially anxious teenager and as soon as I tried weed I instantly loved it. Before long I withdrew from the outside world and just smoked weed as much as I could. I believed it was expanding my mind and making me aware of the spirit world. I had been a hardcore atheist up until that point, so the discovery that there might be a spiritual world was a major event for me and I stupidly considered it worthy of all my attention and energy. I would spend hours just smoking weed, reading Buddhist books, books by Timothy Leary and meditating. My mental health rapidly declined and I started to experience panic attacks and extreme anxiety. The only time I'd feel right was if I could smoke weed and get into this special zone of mental silence that I would access through meditation.

I mention all this because I don't think marijuana would have affected me nearly as badly if I was the type of person to just smoke a joint and play video games or whatever. I believe my obsession with meditating while high to reach this special zone of total peace and silence that I identified with a type of enlightenment or "non game ecstasy" as Tim Leary called it, is what screwed me over so bad. The rest of my youth was wasted on an ill fated spiritual quest and I have never regained the mental health I enjoyed prior to heavy marijuana use. Of course I'd be a lot better off had I not done a plethora of other drugs throughout my 20s and 30s but the marijuana use is what sent me down this dark path.

Thanks for sharing your experience!

Here is a quote from dr Carl harts new book on the topic of cannabis vs “hard drugs”

“Incidents such as this one filled my head with trepidation as I considered how much to reveal about my own drug use. At the same time, though, I was tired, tired of being dishonest. I was tired of pretending that marijuana was different, from a biological perspective, from something like heroin. Why is it OK for me to admit having used marijuana but not heroin? I know why, of course. Because most people have been led to believe that heroin is inherently a dangerous drug, whereas pot is just a harmless giggle. It’s frustrating. Consider the remarks made by senator Bernie Sanders at the start of 2018 on this subject: “Marijuana is not the same as heroin. No one who has seriously studied the issue believes that marijuana should be classified as a Schedule I drug beside killer drugs like heroin.”1 As politicians go, Sanders seems to be a fair-minded, well-intentioned individual. But his drug perspective is ignorant. Here’s why: In order for a drug, any drug, to produce an effect in the brain, it must first bind to a unique site recognized by that drug. This site, this “receptor”—a specialized structure that recognizes and responds to a particular chemical—is endogenous, meaning that it’s in all of us. We also have an endogenous chemical that binds to each of these receptors. That means, each of our brains contains heroin-like and THC-like chemicals and their corresponding receptors. Why, you may ask, would our brains contain a heroin-like substance? Or even a marijuana-like substance? Well, heroin belongs to a class of chemicals called opioids, and opioids participate in myriad important biological functions. For example, they relieve pain, reduce diarrhea, and induce sleep. It’s not difficult to see the life-sustaining value of this class of chemicals. Similarly, the marijuana-like chemical in the brain plays an important role in food intake and coordinating bodily movements, as well as other vital functions. These chemicals, or more precisely, their endogenous relatives, are critical for our survival. Still, neither heroin nor marijuana is inherently more evil than the other. It’s true that heroin, for example, will more readily cause respiratory depression than marijuana will. It would be a mistake, however, to conclude that heroin is more evil than marijuana is. Smoking marijuana is far more likely to cause temporary paranoia or disturbing perceptual alterations than heroin administered by any route is. If someone were suffering from dysentery, a condition that remains a major cause of death in countries that have inadequate health resources, heroin would be the obvious lifesaving choice. The point is that all drugs can produce both negative and positive effects. So to act as if marijuana is intrinsically or morally superior to heroin—or any other drug, for that matter—highlights the ignorance of the holder of this belief. Such ignorance also decreases the odds of people honestly reporting the use of drugs other than marijuana because of the stigma attached to so-called harder drugs, such as heroin. For at least the past five years, I’ve felt a nagging sense of guilt about complying with the requirement to lie about my current drug use. “
 
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Im just burying myself in this obsession with probability right now....

so 10% chance 3 scenarios and 20% the 4th

40 potential outcomes
5 you become an addict
So the answer is 1/8 or 12.5%

just scratched it out like that like what an idiot if its that simple..meanwhile ive been reading about P(A|B) = P(B|A) * P(A) / P(B) blah blah blah

Must be all the meth man im teaching myself and going insane at the same time

someone do the actual math please and not the meth
 
The difference between a thought and an action is monumental. I think its safe to presume everyone has had thoughts like “I could kill him!” But actually doing that is much, much different. Its like how dreams arent reality. They are there, some can even be followed through on. Potentially. Coming true on a murder is wildly different than thinking of it though. Its the difference between fiction and reality. Its also hardly a parallel argument to using drugs and equates people who do to being morally, socially, totally reprehensible which isnt true at all in and of itself. Murderers are, almost all the time.

There is no apology to the person whos life youve ended. There is forgiveness for an addict either from yourself or otherwise though.

As a footnote, sometimes even murderers are forgiven.

Teenage rebellion is a known phenomenon yes, especially since it became a thing in the early-mid 20th century when “youth culture” became a thing. That hardly encompasses something as broad as an individual deciding to take drugs though. A lack of education these days when the chems are SO pervasive and SO toxic is not how to handle that, especially just because some teenagers hate authority. Supposedly.
So I think we agree on that. So sorry, I get confused :(

If someone thinks a lot about helping people, but never actually helps anybody, what good is that?

I really don't give much of value to thoughts. They are just a language for us to process the world.

I do agree with your argument, however there's something to be said about peer pressure, and defying "the man" for teenagers. The fact that hard drugs are illegal and utterly romanticized by (mostly) the music industry, is big. We're a very curious species, and while many non-drug-related people do not like drugs/what drugs do to people, they are still curious about the effects. I guess the difference is between people who decide not to, and those that couldn't resist and just had to know. From a sociological point of view it's just bound to happen to some. I don't think it has so much to do with a lack of education either, at least not always. Just curiosity, biggest strength & weakness of humanity.
 
Thanks for sharing your experience!

Here is a quote from dr Carl harts new book on the topic of cannabis vs “hard drugs”

“Incidents such as this one filled my head with trepidation as I considered how much to reveal about my own drug use. At the same time, though, I was tired, tired of being dishonest. I was tired of pretending that marijuana was different, from a biological perspective, from something like heroin. Why is it OK for me to admit having used marijuana but not heroin? I know why, of course. Because most people have been led to believe that heroin is inherently a dangerous drug, whereas pot is just a harmless giggle. It’s frustrating. Consider the remarks made by senator Bernie Sanders at the start of 2018 on this subject: “Marijuana is not the same as heroin. No one who has seriously studied the issue believes that marijuana should be classified as a Schedule I drug beside killer drugs like heroin.”1 As politicians go, Sanders seems to be a fair-minded, well-intentioned individual. But his drug perspective is ignorant. Here’s why: In order for a drug, any drug, to produce an effect in the brain, it must first bind to a unique site recognized by that drug. This site, this “receptor”—a specialized structure that recognizes and responds to a particular chemical—is endogenous, meaning that it’s in all of us. We also have an endogenous chemical that binds to each of these receptors. That means, each of our brains contains heroin-like and THC-like chemicals and their corresponding receptors. Why, you may ask, would our brains contain a heroin-like substance? Or even a marijuana-like substance? Well, heroin belongs to a class of chemicals called opioids, and opioids participate in myriad important biological functions. For example, they relieve pain, reduce diarrhea, and induce sleep. It’s not difficult to see the life-sustaining value of this class of chemicals. Similarly, the marijuana-like chemical in the brain plays an important role in food intake and coordinating bodily movements, as well as other vital functions. These chemicals, or more precisely, their endogenous relatives, are critical for our survival. Still, neither heroin nor marijuana is inherently more evil than the other. It’s true that heroin, for example, will more readily cause respiratory depression than marijuana will. It would be a mistake, however, to conclude that heroin is more evil than marijuana is. Smoking marijuana is far more likely to cause temporary paranoia or disturbing perceptual alterations than heroin administered by any route is. If someone were suffering from dysentery, a condition that remains a major cause of death in countries that have inadequate health resources, heroin would be the obvious lifesaving choice. The point is that all drugs can produce both negative and positive effects. So to act as if marijuana is intrinsically or morally superior to heroin—or any other drug, for that matter—highlights the ignorance of the holder of this belief. Such ignorance also decreases the odds of people honestly reporting the use of drugs other than marijuana because of the stigma attached to so-called harder drugs, such as heroin. For at least the past five years, I’ve felt a nagging sense of guilt about complying with the requirement to lie about my current drug use. “

Yes I think a better comparison would be marijuana vs opium though. The reason heroin has such a stigma is because of needles, overdoses,withdrawal and the financial ruin/crime it often induces. These things are all very visible to society whereas the damaged mental health of someone like me is not at all visible.

If you take a look at opium though, it still has much more of a stigma than marijuana. Why? Supposedly because of it's addictive nature and visible withdrawal. However, I think you could make a strong argument that opium is quite comparable to marijuana in terms of the actual harms it induces. The big risk with opium is of course the addiction but aside from that it's just not that harmful. If I had teenage children and I knew they were smoking opium I'd probably be less worried about them than if they were smoking marijuana honestly. At least with opium, I know how to treat the withdrawal whereas I've never found a cure for the ill effects of pot.

People like Charles Bukowski have pointed this out. He said something like, yeah alcohol can be bad over the long term but I've never seen alcohol affect people like marijuana can where you have a young kid with a promising future start smoking pot heavily and 2 years later he's totally changed as a person. With youthful heavy use of alcohol you get hungover but you largely go back to normal not too long after you stop drinking. With marijuana, in my experience at least, my life was forever altered after a couple of years of daily use.
 
Yes I think a better comparison would be marijuana vs opium though. The reason heroin has such a stigma is because of needles, overdoses,withdrawal and the financial ruin/crime it often induces. These things are all very visible to society whereas the damaged mental health of someone like me is not at all visible.

If you take a look at opium though, it still has much more of a stigma than marijuana. Why? Supposedly because of it's addictive nature and visible withdrawal. However, I think you could make a strong argument that opium is quite comparable to marijuana in terms of the actual harms it induces. The big risk with opium is of course the addiction but aside from that it's just not that harmful. If I had teenage children and I knew they were smoking opium I'd probably be less worried about them than if they were smoking marijuana honestly. At least with opium, I know how to treat the withdrawal whereas I've never found a cure for the ill effects of pot.

People like Charles Bukowski have pointed this out. He said something like, yeah alcohol can be bad over the long term but I've never seen alcohol affect people like marijuana can where you have a young kid with a promising future start smoking pot heavily and 2 years later he's totally changed as a person. With youthful heavy use of alcohol you get hungover but you largely go back to normal not too long after you stop drinking. With marijuana, in my experience at least, my life was forever altered after a couple of years of daily use.

Bukowski said that , really ? He’s one of my favourites. Ham On Rye Is in my top 100 books of all time . Quote please?

Here in the west everyone knows what Opium is , few people have had the pleasure of trying it
 
Bukowski said that , really ? He’s one of my favourites. Ham On Rye Is in my top 100 books of all time . Quote please?

Here in the west everyone knows what Opium is , few people have had the pleasure of trying it

Here is the clip I was referring to:

 
Very cool, thanks for the hookup . I do enjoy reading Bukowski

Captain obvious : he trashes “drugs” while consuming two drugs, tobacco and alcohol

Yeah this is the kind of thing that would really piss a lot of drug users off but I feel like I get where he's coming from and can't help but admit he has a point. I could easily argue against him in a general sense, pointing to the fact alcohol causes tremendous societal problems but the fact remains that based on my own personal experiences he's completely right. Had I stuck to alcohol instead of using marijuana and other drugs I am sure my life would have turned out incredibly different. I think it's extremely unlikely I would have ever become a severe alcoholic because I am the type of person who hates hangovers and so alcohol has always been self limiting to me to a degree. It's very unlikely in my view that I would have had my life ruined by addiction had I not used marijuana and other drugs.
 
Do you guys think this pendulum effect is happening now with psychedelics?

They seem to be the next biggest push for medicalization and eventual legalization (I guess in Canada sales of mushies are generally allowed not prosecuted??)

I see lots of folks preaching the mental health benefits - which i am plenty familiar with, trust me. But often when one brings up criticism of psychosis risks, hppd, habituated use, etc. they are shot down. Less so here on BL i think but among the crowds I’m in (ages 18-25, generally)


as @the_void noted the pre existing conditions are only talked about if someone has a psychotic break on LSD. “It ran in their family” or they were “predisposed”. But often one cannot know if one is “predisposed“ until after that first break happens

The user gets blamed for not taking into account set and setting or any number of things. But the idea that psychedelics can (in a small minority of cases) trigger psychosis is fundamentally rejected by most proponents i meet
 
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