The use of drug addicts as an educational resource (Split from: What kind of training to doctors have in pharmacology ? How bout recreational drugs?)

[thegreenhand]

These are the last ppl that should be teaching kids about drugs. But to teach kids in schools about drugs pharmacology wouldn't matter. What they need a recovered addict who had their life destroyed by addiction but lived to tell the tale and has a background in addiction treatment/therapy.

That's the person who is going to get through to young ppl starting their forray into drug use, not a cop nor a scientist that understands pharmacology.

Why must they only hear from “addicts”? I know that sort of rhetoric has instilled a sense of shame and guilt over healthy substance use in myself.

We may become what we’re told we are. Listening to all drug user’s experiences is a much better sample

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Why must they only hear from “addicts”? I know that sort of rhetoric has instilled a sense of shame and guilt over healthy substance use in myself.

We may become what we’re told we are. Listening to all drug user’s experiences is a much better sample

Not everybody that uses drugs is an addict. Those aren't the ppl that need to be saved though. Harm reduction for soft drug users is something that I'm not sure belongs in schools for kids that haven't even begun drug use yet. I'm not sure where it would fit in but it is needed.

We like to think of harm reduction like sex Ed. But everyone has sex and only a few percent of ppl use drugs beyond weed and alcohol. I'm not sure what type of drug education you think is worth exposing 100 percent of children to other than education surrounding the danger of drugs and not sure what teaching them that a small percent of ppl can use them responsibly (and illegally) and come out without real consequences accomplishes for kids?

Now for true drug addicts. Ppl like me that will abuse and take everything from acid to heroin in unhealthy patterns until it destroys them...these are the people that need to be made aware of the existence of their disease so that they can recognize it early on. This belongs in schools.

I really think you're lying to yourself if you think that there are no consequences for drug use. Legal, mental, physical, amd interpersonal...the utopic ideal of the enlightened mushroom user that successfully uses drugs without consequences is not as common mushroom users like to think.

We're in an Era where even trying cocaine or heroin can overdose you with enough fentanyl to kill a whale. Kids need to hear that before they get into drugs...not that MDMA is fun and can be used responsibly, again not sure what that accomplishes.

If kids get caught with drugs maybe they should be educated in harm reduction but to just teach 100 percent of the youth that there is a positive side to drug use is reckless imo bc the danger and destruction far outweighs the "successful" drug user that walks away unscathed.

 

[MsDiz]

Not everybody that uses drugs is an addict. Those aren't the ppl that need to be saved though. Harm reduction for soft drug users is something that I'm not sure belongs in schools for kids that haven't even begun drug use yet. I'm not sure where it would fit in but it is needed.

Now for true drug addicts. Ppl like me that will abuse and take everything from acid to heroin in unhealthy patterns until it destroys them...these are the people that need to be made aware of the existence of their disease so that they can recognize it early on. This belongs in schools.

We're in an Era where even trying cocaine or heroin can overdose you with enough fentanyl to kill a whale. Kids need to hear that before they get into drugs...not that MDMA is fun and can be used responsibly.

What good does any addict giving a talk really do, being honest? The kids that are gonna get addicted to drugs are going to do it. You’re a scientist. Surely you must realise that? The massive genetic factor, home living conditions, economic factors, education from birth to name a few. Yes, it may put a few off and it’s worthwhile but don’t be deluded.

I’ve been saying for years now that those who don’t use drugs are using food instead. They eat their feelings or starve any feeling away. How many people are obese in the US right now, what percentage? Food is easily obtainable, it’s not regulated (in America like it is here, we have sugar tax), no one ever questions why you’re eating another bag of crisps when you’ve just had one do they?

Like, what are the stats for % of heavy drug users in US?

What you guys need are some dieticians to talk to your kids. I just had a quick google, im about to leave for work. 1970s 5% of kids were obese in American, up to 17-20% now. That’s in the 2-15 age range. Obese.

Food is gonna kill these kids, not drugs.

 

[thegreenhand]

I've seen this approach implemented. Unfortunately the pharmacist was a bit apathetic and everything they did seemed rote and by protocol. This isn't the best way to practice psychiatry, it turns out, became patients are complex and don't fit nearly into boxes and protocols. It's also boring. An assembly line approach, if you will. Ticking little boxes here and there.

If you've been in the business for a while you can just look at someone and observe their behavior for a while and often intuit that one medication will be better than the other. I can't describe it but it's definitely a thing. There's gotta be room for that kind of stuff too. Psychiatry, significantly more than general medicine, has many aspects that are more art than science.

Shame that the pharmacist wasn’t all that engaged. Having a Sasha shulgin type figure would be ideal honestly lol. Someone who understands how these drugs are experienced and not just the pharmacodynamics/kinetics

and re. the art more than science, I agree wholeheartedly

 

[thegreenhand]

What good does any addict giving a talk really do, being honest? The kids that are gonna get addicted to drugs are going to do it. You’re a scientist. Surely you must realise that? The massive genetic factor, home living conditions, economic factors, education from birth to name a few. Yes, it may put a few off and it’s worthwhile but don’t be deluded.

I’ve been saying for years now that those who don’t use drugs are using food instead. They eat their feelings or starve any feeling away. How many people are obese in the US right now, what percentage? Food is easily obtainable, it’s not regulated (in America like it is here, we have sugar tax), no one ever questions why you’re eating another bag of crisps when you’ve just had one do they?

Like, what are the stats for % of heavy drug users in US?

What you guys need are some dieticians to talk to your kids. I just had a quick google, im about to leave for work. 1970s 5% of kids were obese in American, up to 17-20% now. That’s in the 2-15 age range. Obese.

Food is gonna kill these kids, not drugs.

I would lump screen time in there too. You can observe people my age checking their phone constantly almost as an anxiolytic. They’ll pull it out to check in the same manner that one hits a nicotine vape, if you watch closely.

As for the food, most definitely. I’m guilty of it myself at times. A really stressful week leaves me no motivation to cook and I’m tempted to just order carry out or whatever. But ofc that only exacerbates the shitty mood after you’re done eating it.

Obesity anonymous isn’t really a thing but a education from a nutritionist can certainly help. I don’t see why the same can’t go for drugs

 

[LucidSDreamr]

has a background in addiction treatment/therapy.

.....as I mentioned earlier we don't just need an ex crack addict scaring kids. We need a trained professional
Not sure why you jumped on the addict thing.

Call me crazy but I don't think teaching a bunch of drug virgins in middle school that they are "safer" ways to IV drugs or to do fentanyl is good policy.

The kids that do start doing drugs at a young age, getting caught with weed or coke, instead of going to jail should probably get some sort of classes where harm reduction is a component.

Trying to paint drug use as safe or achievable to the drug naive youth isn't going to do the youth any favors.

 

[MsDiz]

@Nagelfar the past few posts would probably make a good thread discussion although probably not suitable to this forum.

 

[SKL]

lmao people thinking that Erowid type shit should be in schools. HR is good for people who choose to use but it's a terrible idea to expose the general public to it, that normalizes and encourages drug use. Before anyone points out that the same argument is used (relatively poorly) about Sex Ed, remind yourselves that sex is a fundamental evolutionary drive. The drive to get high is pretty strong too but still most people manage not to use drugs. The higher the percentage of people who do so the better. Once you're dealing with a user, do HR all day. In general, present the risks of drugs. Not in an untruthful manner like DARE, that has no credibility once kids see weed isn't the devil or whatever. Just be honest. Drugs are bad for you and the lifestyle is worse. More focus on the latter, in fact, might be good. Just have to be careful not to glamorize it. Which is very hard to do.

 

[Kimi#4321]

I want to just take a moment a say I really dislike and disagree with your statement. “Ex addicts are the worst because they tend to blame the drug for everything that went shit in their lives.”
Clean or strong out I don’t blame the drug and happy times or as you say when everything goes shit in my life I reframe from blaming others Even if their actions have caused consequences in my life it’s still up to me of how I choose to deal with that it is always my choice. Don’t get me wrong I might be mad hurt Etc. but how I choose to deal with that is always been me so not every addict using or not feels or thinks that way.

 

[Jabberwocky]

From a kind of utilitarian perspective I think that drug education for children through school should focus on the dangers of drugs and generally discourage the taking of drugs in a non-shame based way (if that is even possible). Whether legal or illegal there is no drug that does not pose significant potential risk for a significant but unknown proportion of kids. For this kind of education I can see a role for ex addicts talking about they were damaged by drugs.

However, there should also be a parallel harm-reduction educational stream where those kids who were not convinced to avoid drugs can safely learn how to minimise the risks of the drugs they use and obtain practical help if their use becomes problematic. So, also a very judgement free space. In this kind of education I think trained professionals and evidence-based practice is necessary. That doesn't preclude ex-addicts so long as they are properly trained.

You only have to look at BL to see that amongst a bunch of long term users of the same drug you can can get quite diverse and conflicting opinions about what is safe and what is not.

I don't see any role anywhere for education that promotes or encourages the use of drugs. The possible exception to that would be education about evidence based medicine using drugs that are also problematic for many people. Like psychedelic-assisted therapy with MDMA or stimulants for ADHD.

 

[December Flower]

What good does any addict giving a talk really do, being honest? The kids that are gonna get addicted to drugs are going to do it. You’re a scientist. Surely you must realise that? The massive genetic factor, home living conditions, economic factors, education from birth to name a few. Yes, it may put a few off and it’s worthwhile but don’t be deluded.

I’ve been saying for years now that those who don’t use drugs are using food instead. They eat their feelings or starve any feeling away. How many people are obese in the US right now, what percentage? Food is easily obtainable, it’s not regulated (in America like it is here, we have sugar tax), no one ever questions why you’re eating another bag of crisps when you’ve just had one do they?

Like, what are the stats for % of heavy drug users in US?

What you guys need are some dieticians to talk to your kids. I just had a quick google, im about to leave for work. 1970s 5% of kids were obese in American, up to 17-20% now. That’s in the 2-15 age range. Obese.

Food is gonna kill these kids, not drugs.

agreed.
Saying we can shock others into sobriety, it's just not very scientific. There's no data to support that. The memory is possibly not even going to stick that long, and as kids we wouldn't even be able to process it properly. Honestly, I doubt kids would even take this seriously.

There's no cure for the curious explorer in us humans.
It's how and why we were so successful as a species, but also how we develop addictions.

edit: You're also very right to say that everyone has addictions. They may look down on drugs, but then they eat, or work, or do sports, or skydive, smoke cigarettes, fuck or masturbate compulsively.

It's usually one vice or the other, and I've never seen a human without a vice. For me it's making music. It's harmless ofc(well, ask my fingers), but there's an absolute obsession in me. If I see a piano I'm gonna stare at it until someone invites me to play it :D

 

[Joey]

The idea that harm reduction needs to be kept under wraps opposed what harm reduction is to me because there NEEDS to be awareness and destigmatization towards it, for it to exist. If no one knows the benefits of a good harm reduction program, then how are you get get one publicly funded? Even in the part of the argument where its to protect people, like kids, from knowing the harm part of harm reduction, by knowing nothing of it, what could that possibly help? Leaving the total education of your youth demographic to rumours and misinformation can only lead to an increase of drug related incidents eg death because its so much easier to fuck something up if you dont know what youre doing. There is no situation where people just arent going to drugs by slamming the whole demographic/lifestyle/drugs themselves and not educating. Yes drugs can be terrible and they ruin lives, and they always will, but the only prevention IS harm reduction advocacy and funding towards programming, treatment, contemporary research, treating the addict as a citizen not the addiction as a dirty secret to be swept under the rug, and thus the addict too.

Id be all for a harm reduction based drug course mandatory in public education. 10 years old, same age as sex ed. Should be a mental health and resilience portion as well. These 3 things do go hand in hand after all. Not some one off speaker from MADD or by an addict, an actual couple weeks of education. Those speakers can be a part of but clearly arent the whole story.

Im soon going to be sitting in on a meeting with a drug policy group local to my area about funding a new program here. Im getting involved in the local politics of all this a bit, and thank god we talk about things that need to be talked about or else the application for funding would be insanely benign.

 

[December Flower]

The idea that harm reduction needs to be kept under wraps opposed what harm reduction is to me because there NEEDS to be awareness and destigmatization towards it, for it to exist. If no one knows the benefits of a good harm reduction program, then how are you get get one publicly funded? Even in the part of the argument where its to protect people, like kids, from knowing the harm part of harm reduction, by knowing nothing of it, what could that possibly help? Leaving the total education of your youth demographic to rumours and misinformation can only lead to an increase of drug related incidents eg death because its so much easier to fuck something up if you dont know what youre doing. There is no situation where people just arent going to drugs by slamming the whole demographic/lifestyle/drugs themselves and not educating. Yes drugs can be terrible and they ruin lives, and they always will, but the only prevention IS harm reduction advocacy and funding towards programming, treatment, contemporary research, treating the addict as a citizen not the addiction as a dirty secret to be swept under the rug, and thus the addict too.

Id be all for a harm reduction based drug course mandatory in public education. 10 years old, same age as sex ed. Should be a mental health and resilience portion as well. These 3 things do go hand in hand after all. Not some one off speaker from MADD or by an addict, an actual couple weeks of education. Those speakers can be a part of but clearly arent the whole story.

Im soon going to be sitting in on a meeting with a drug policy group local to my area about funding a new program here. Im getting involved in the local politics of all this a bit, and thank god we talk about things that need to be talked about or else the application for funding would be insanely benign.

We educate people in maths, physics, chemistry, biology - it's not that much of it sticks.

Little example, adults know how dangerous heroin is, they can come here, read thousands and thousands of articles about how heroin has destroyed lives. But they still try it. Why?

I don't believe in this "just tell kids early and it's gonna work out". My dad told me if I smoke cigarettes I'm gonna die early. I saw my grandpa lying in a puddle of blood after he vomited part of his lungs, and I was at 10 years old. I still became a smoker just 5 years later. My resolution "I'm just never going to smoke as much as he did!"

See, and suddenly it all fits perfectly. Teenagers are masterminds at keeping themselves in the dark & at thinking themselves to be indestructible. Today I curse that motherfucker called "past me"

 

[Joey]

We educate people in maths, physics, chemistry, biology - it's not that much of it sticks.

Little example, adults know how dangerous heroin is, they can come here, read thousands and thousands of articles about how heroin has destroyed lives. But they still try it. Why?

I don't believe in this "just tell kids early and it's gonna work out". My dad told me if I smoke cigarettes I'm gonna die early. I saw my grandpa lying in a puddle of blood after he vomited part of his lungs, and I was at 10 years old. I still became a smoker just 5 years later. My resolution "I'm just never going to smoke as much as he did!"

See, and suddenly it all fits perfectly. Teenagers are masterminds at keeping themselves in the dark & at thinking themselves to be indestructible. Today I curse that motherfucker called "past me"

keeping yourself in the dark and actually being in the dark are two different things and dont need to be simultaneous. I fucked my life too, but am so glad I got the education I did on drugs. Self educated mostly through things like erowid to start. If the majority of my cohort got even 1/10th of that there wouldve been a lot less needless deaths. Doing something “stupid” per say like heroin and ACTUALLY being stupid on drugs out of sheer ignorance kind of paints two different sets, doesnt it? The fork in the road where its literally dead end, youre dead, looks a lot brighter in your dark set.

 

[December Flower]

keeping yourself in the dark and actually being in the dark are two different things and dont need to be simultaneous. I fucked my life too, but am so glad I got the education I did on drugs. Self educated mostly through things like erowid to start. If the majority of my cohort got even 1/10th of that there wouldve been a lot less needless deaths. Doing something “stupid” per say like heroin and ACTUALLY being stupid on drugs out of sheer ignorance kind of paints two different sets, doesnt it? The fork in the road where its literally dead end, youre dead, looks a lot brighter in your dark set.

I'm not sure I can understand the difference. This exceeds my understanding of social nuance.

I think actions are what makes us us. I don't care if a mass-murderer had good intentions, so being stupid and acting stupid sound like they're exactly the same thing, to me. If someone does something to hurt me continuously, and they tell me they're sorry, and still continue to hurt me. Was the "sorry" worth anything?

I think keeping oneself is even more dangerous, because you will knowingly defy what you have been taught, and act especially irresponsible just out of spite. Teenagers doing what their parents/authority figures hate, it's a very well-known phenomenon.

 

[Joey]

I'm not sure I can understand the difference. This exceeds my understanding of social nuance.

I think actions are what makes us us. I don't care if a mass-murderer had good intentions, so being stupid and acting stupid sound like they're exactly the same thing, to me. If someone does something to hurt me continuously, and they tell me they're sorry, and still continue to hurt me. Was the "sorry" worth anything?

The difference between a thought and an action is monumental. I think its safe to presume everyone has had thoughts like “I could kill him!” But actually doing that is much, much different. Its like how dreams arent reality. They are there, some can even be followed through on. Potentially. Coming true on a murder is wildly different than thinking of it though. Its the difference between fiction and reality. Its also hardly a parallel argument to using drugs and equates people who do to being morally, socially, totally reprehensible which isnt true at all in and of itself. Murderers are, almost all the time.

There is no apology to the person whos life youve ended. There is forgiveness for an addict either from yourself or otherwise though.

As a footnote, sometimes even murderers are forgiven.

Teenage rebellion is a known phenomenon yes, especially since it became a thing in the early-mid 20th century when “youth culture” became a thing. That hardly encompasses something as broad as an individual deciding to take drugs though. A lack of education these days when the chems are SO pervasive and SO toxic is not how to handle that, especially just because some teenagers hate authority. Supposedly.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

I don't get what the point of teaching proper IV technique or how often to take MDMA...to a population of children none of which has tried hard drugs yet and only about less than 5 percent of them will.

Teach them the dangers the complications such as overdose, fent, infections, and probably interactions with psychiatric drugs...but to be teaching "harm reduction" as we know it on BL to kids that mostly will never use hard drugs...i guess I'm in the minority it seems.

Again, if kids are caught using drugs harm reduction should be introduced to them through the justice system or whatever but i don't think teaching all kids in school how to shoot up with proper technique is what kids should be learning.

 

[Joey]

Getting to the original subject. Most academic and social circles regarding people who have addictions as being “addicts” to nearly the level earlier years have. Having a substance use disorders, person/ people who use drugs (pwud), people with “lived experience”, or even just a simple rephrase to having an addiction is becoming more in vogue and it is more accurate anyway so its good.

It is absolutely right that pigeonholing “addicts” into the subject into the subject, as if addiction is someone they are rather than something they have. That brings people down badly and bringing someone down for having a mental health problem has never solved anything.

It definitely screws up the message to kids if only specifically “addicts” are present in the room to teach addiction. Why unnecessarily only look at “addicts” rather than the broader group from people with addictions to those affected to law enforcement to social systems e.g. shelters to medical and scientific study.. “Addicts” dont exist singularly. People do, regarded individually.

All the mumbo about the word in and of itself aside, having the faces of meth scrolled through while Nicole from fresh off the street 6 months clean, probably doing it as a nice paid gig, or possibly court ordered, give a horror story, gives maybe 1/10 the story.

 

[Joey]

I don't get what the point of teaching proper IV technique or how often to take MDMA...to a population of children none of which has tried hard drugs yet and only about less than 5 percent of them will.

Teach them the dangers the complications such as overdose, fent, infections, and probably interactions with psychiatric drugs...but to be teaching "harm reduction" as we know it on BL to kids that mostly will never use hard drugs...i guess I'm in the minority it seems.

Again, if kids are caught using drugs harm reduction should be introduced to them through the justice system or whatever but i don't think teaching all kids in school how to shoot up with proper technique is what kids should be learning.

I dont think anyone else was jumping to teach kids how to shoot up as being the harm reduction headliner. They should be aware IV use exists, why people do it, and that safer use is a thing though. Its not glorifying or teaching how, its being aware that IV use doesnt equal emaciated “junkie” overdosing at McDonalds or in a ditch. Chances are a few kids, particularly once youre talking high school age already are using IV and even more are around it in some way.

 

[Joey]

Here is a thought. Put aside how fucked up the foster care systems are in the world.

Zero education is zero recognition. Who is more likely to report his IV fentanyl abusing parents nodding out all the time and do so correctly, factually backed, able to prove, etc, to get help getting out?

A) the 10 year old who has zero awareness whats actually wrong, what he is factually looking at

B) The one who knows what fentanyl is as being the #1 abused drug, because he knows the basics, and even what to look for at least a little bit because opoid overdoses prescription or otherwise are extremely common?

Also, what 10 year old hasnt heard of drugs or addiction or anything anyway? May as well be factual about them to the best of our abilities.

Yknow how much I wonder about trying different brands of cigarettes and whats out there, in stores behind the displays now blocked off? Way more than I did when they were out in the open.