The UK benefits system

[THECATINTHEHAT]

What are your opinions? Do we give people too much? Not enough?

I'm pretty set in my opinion but I'm interested to hear what the demographic on this board thinks.

 

[parttime crackhead]

We don't give people enough.

There's enough money in this country for everyone to live pretty comfortably. No-one should be scraping by on £50 a week or whatever it is now.

 

[mydrugbuddy]

Because i own my own home, i was in the red every month, because the weekly payment didnt even cover my council tax plus water bills. Then there was all the other bills on top, which left me with nothing, or less than nothing. Damn i rgeret leaving that job, i was sorted if id stayed there, the money was decent, some days could be fucking stressfull as hell though, though other days could be a chilled out doddle. When my habits started getting out of control and it became more important to wait in for a delivery than to get to work on time my days were gonna be numbered. Allthough HR were going to try to help me with some of my problems i didnt give them the chace, i gave them my resignation letter, then signed off sick with stress.

 

[curious_24]

Oh dear, shit storm incoming! Not aimed at either of you two by the way. It's just a very emotive topic and one that usually leads to all hell breaking loose.

 

[THECATINTHEHAT]

I'm interested to know what people think, personally I think the benefits system is a fucking joke. Someone I know has just been spared prison for failing to meet his probabtion meetings. His punishment? They're giving him a flat.

Commit a crime and fail to adhere to the conditions of your punishment>here have your own place to live.......be a student and try to broaden the country's skill base>fuck you give us £30k and live in a shitty shared house.

Someone else I know is off on the sick and has saved up £10k to go abroad to live in Vietnam, even he agrees that it's a fucking joke that he's been able to do so.

Even though the issues are inherently linked can we try to avoid discussion of taxation etc as whilst the ability to give to the less fortunate is based on the amount of taxation coming in it's a seperate issue really and will complicate the discussion.

 

[Shambles]

We don't give people enough.

There's enough money in this country for everyone to live pretty comfortably. No-one should be scraping by on £50 a week or whatever it is now.

Completely agree. Fella I know was a social worker for half his working life and worked for the Inland Revenue for the second half. A good way to see both sides of the coin and he had some interesting ideas on alternative ways to distribute wealth. He had a document he'd typed out years ago and sent out to politicians (he really was keen on his idea) but turns out it was already an idea and has just started to be mentioned around the fringes of (admittedly rather left-wing) parties - the Greens have something similar but don't take it quite as far (or keep it a bit quiet if they do - I got the impression they would support and be in favour of it but are a bit worried about selling the idea cos it is such a different approach). Goes under a few names but wiki has it down as Basic Income.

The short version is that everybody gets said basic income - enough to live on, not enough to live flashily on but nobody should be at risk of needing food banks and all the extra handouts that come with the existing benefits system - in theory it saves money but I won't pretend to have done the sums (fella did but how accurate they are I couldn't say). All other benefits are scrapped cos are no longer necessary - nobody is below the poverty line but if you want luxury you would obviously need to work. Which is another of the big question marks - why work if you don't have to? That is already the case - we all know people who don't work cos they don't want to and don't have to under the current system. Those people always exist but most do want to do something to fill their days and most also want more than their neighbour has - newer car, bigger TV and all that - which would still require having a job.

Seems a better system to me - simple and fair. It is also supposed to be overall cheaper but wouldn't know about that - I kinda suspect it would be purely on how much is wasted on bureaucracy at the moment. Remember reading a while back that 7 out of every 10 quid in the benefits system actually gets spent on all the stuff other than actual payments - that's a shitload to be saved even if the figure was exaggerated a bit (got no particular reason to think it was but 70% seems kinda high even by governmental wastage standards).

 

[parttime crackhead]

I was a solid dole monkey for a couple of years, then I worked for the Inland Revenue for a few. I've seen both sides of the coin to a lesser extent. I've heard of the basic income before and completely agree with it, although like you I haven't looked into the sums.

The incentive to work is the same as the now. I want to have and do nice things so I need more than a basic income.

 

[mydrugbuddy]

If i gave up my phone line and calls, and broadband internet connection, all e-cigs, alcohol and drugs, maybe get a water meter installed, as a single occupier im sure i use way less water than the average 85 litres per day per household or something like that and just paid for what i use (but apparently water meters can put people off wanting to buy a house, and i dont want to make it less sellable) and my car, and never used the heating (im sure british gas are ripping me off charging me £85 a month, but im a bit worried that if i do phone them to query it, it might turn out that i owe them even more) i might be able to afford to subsist on benefits.

Granted that broadband is a luxury, and i could use the internet free at libraries, but a phone is pretty much essential, it would be extremely difficult to get a job without a phone. There are a number of people forced into that kind of predicament; phone or food. Im near the end of one of my savings accounts, gonna have to request a near final w/d. Will probably sign on again after that, have to bow and scrape to them again, jumping through their hoops, they make you spend more time proving that you have applied for jobs, than it takes to actually apply for them.

 

[THECATINTHEHAT]

I find it infuriating that we susidise those who have commited crimes against society the money to have their own place to live whilst many who are law abiding are forced in to living in shared accomodation. Makes no sense to me.

As a whole I think we do enough in the way of social care but the way in which it is distributed is all wrong.

 

[Shambles]

^ That would be the type of thing that would no longer happen with the Basic Income thingy. The benefits system is ridiculously complex and has never been consistent or especially fair. All depends on what whichever manager happens to decide that day. Ask a different manager or move to a different area and it's completely different. The fact so many appeals are successful alone suggests there's something very wrong. If half their decisions are overturned - upwards and downwards - they are clearly making it up as they go along. Certainly how it seems anyway. A simpler and fairer system could only be an improvement I think. Also takes away all the suspicions people have that some Other is getting all the benefits whilst they are being screwed. The way things are now is so stupidly complex it's hard to tell who is getting what and why cos two people in the same situation can get completely different benefits. It's bizarre and leads to suspicions of unfairness (which are probably often justifiable suspicions - through incompetence and excessive complication rather than favouritism though).

 

[RLP]

There shouldn't even be a benefit system. If you're too lazy to get out of your goddamned bed then you sleep on that thing until its covered in mould, and then some. Don't like it? Tough. Get a job. Learn what it is like to make a living from a hard days work, the country doesn't owe you anything.

Since my father retired and I took over the his commodities business I haven't missed a day and I am suitably rewarded for my efforts and pay more in taxes than I get back in child benefit. Result: Net contributor to the economy and doing something with my life. The benefit of working is more than just a house in the country, some nice cars and luxury holidays abroad, it gives you purpose.

Cut all benefits and give people that first step towards purpose.

 

[parttime crackhead]

Well done. Cut all benefits, give everyone daddy's business instead.

 

[Marmalade]

It's a fucked up convoluted mess. A shameful, wasteful clusterfuck of epic proportions. The utter waste of resources through continual changes to the system alone is criminal.

The process generates too many mistakes and all at the expense of the claimant. It's a shite state of affairs

 

[pinkpapaver]

Hay marmz good to seeya! Is it an oxymoron or something coz theres nout beneficial about them. When i log into the computer i will write my essay. They are kept at sich a level to keep u down and out destroy your confidence and keep you dependent. Classic victim rescuer persecutor triangle.
Also such a system to deter and make it difficult. Fuck knows how people with bag english get thru it.Im not just talkin foreigners but people without literacy. Oh baby i will be back!

 

[maxalfie]

It's a fucked up convoluted mess. A shameful, wasteful clusterfuck of epic proportions. The utter waste of resources through continual changes to the system alone is criminal.

The process generates too many mistakes and all at the expense of the claimant. It's a shite state of affairs

Here Here, well said Marmz

 

[Sammy G]

There shouldn't even be a benefit system. If you're too lazy to get out of your goddamned bed then you sleep on that thing until its covered in mould, and then some. Don't like it? Tough. Get a job. Learn what it is like to make a living from a hard days work, the country doesn't owe you anything.

Let's hope one or two layabouts managed to prise themselves from the X-Box for long enough to read this.

 

[Shambles]

There shouldn't even be a benefit system. If you're too lazy to get out of your goddamned bed then you sleep on that thing until its covered in mould, and then some. Don't like it? Tough. Get a job. Learn what it is like to make a living from a hard days work, the country doesn't owe you anything.

You including those unable to work through sickness and/or disability? There's no doubt some people will just do nothing and get by on benefits. Probably a helluva lot less than some folk thing though. You can't really live on benefits you survive and if you want to live a bit too you have to go without basic necessities. It's not quite like the Heil wishes it was. But scrounging aside, how would people truly unable to work exist in your society? And who will employ everybody? There aren't enough jobs to cover everybody by several million - what happens to those people who simply cannot work cos there is nothing for them to do?

It's a fucked up convoluted mess. A shameful, wasteful clusterfuck of epic proportions. The utter waste of resources through continual changes to the system alone is criminal.

The process generates too many mistakes and all at the expense of the claimant. It's a shite state of affairs

Also a good point. The constant fiddling around the edges trying to please papers really doesn't help. Just ends up costing more than it would to have done nothing. Ridiculous state of affairs. It costs more trying to please people who have problems with people receiving benefits than it does to just give people the benefits. If you really want to save tax money stop bitching about benefits cos it costs insane amounts of money to achieve nothing.

Well done. Cut all benefits, give everyone daddy's business instead.

Funny how often complaints of laziness and scrounging accompany inherited wealth 8)

 

[Si Dread]

what puzzles me really, is why anyone with a steady income would begrudge someone without the ability to earn money the right to barely survive.

Once you accept that that premise is inhumane, & plain shit, you also accept that the system put in place to assist those in need will be vulnerable to those in greed, & you tackle that as best you can without causing undue hardship to the genuine claimants.

I spent a long time on sickness benefit, coz I was sick, a fair bit of time on dole coz I was unemployed, & on Housing etc. Despite so many years on so many benefits, which must have cost a fortune, I got back into work about 10 years ago & one of my first clients left his paye return laying around. Naturally I took a peek & he'd paid more in income tax in one year than I'd taken from the entire benefits system in my entire life. This guy isnt even particularly rich, he just gets bloody good jobs!

I might have felt some guilt despite being genuinely in need, & for allowing myself to use the system for support for so long, but I felt alot less guilt after seeing this chaps paye return. He's a gent too by the way, really nice guy for whom I still work. Imagine how much tax he's paid in the last 10 years! Enough for half this board to claim back in jsa!

 

[Eveleivibe]

There shouldn't even be a benefit system. If you're too lazy to get out of your goddamned bed then you sleep on that thing until its covered in mould, and then some. Don't like it? Tough. Get a job. Learn what it is like to make a living from a hard days work, the country doesn't owe you anything.

Since my father retired and I took over the his commodities business I haven't missed a day and I am suitably rewarded for my efforts and pay more in taxes than I get back in child benefit. Result: Net contributor to the economy and doing something with my life. The benefit of working is more than just a house in the country, some nice cars and luxury holidays abroad, it gives you purpose.

Cut all benefits and give people that first step towards purpose.

That's a bit stereotypical n rude. I actually thought you were a nice person but obviously not with that attitude. They haven't a clue what some of us are going through or the stress.

Its ignoramus attitude like this why people who are disabled or sick WITH FAMILIES are worried sick that in a few weeks they're going to have nothing. They're kid isnt going to have food on the table.

But that's ok right? Because they shouldn't have benefits, right?

Evey

 

[Si Dread]

The thing is, Daddys company will make money out of the benefit system, even as it pays into it. ALL the money ends up in the hands of government, & the rich. The rest of us just recycle their money, it always winds up back in their hands in the end...

We all have to buy goods, food, transport, energy, a roof etc etc with the money we get from benefits. On those payments we pay vat! The goverment uses our taxes to ease local & global trade & offer tax breaks to businesses who can't afford clever tax lawyers... perhaps like Daddys. They get it all back.