The type of hierarchy I'm talking about is a conceptual map of the different
types of pleasure pain experiences arranged by their value to the experiencer. For example, though the specifics are certainly open to debate, the ones that are life affirming and spiritually enlightening are at the top and the ones that are soul crushing are at the bottom. Most mundane ones are somewhere in the middle.
My point isn't that some pleasures are better than others, though that is true. My point is that pleasures and pains ought to be conceived of hierarchically for two main reasons. One, because the effect of experiencing them upon our lives is much greater than ooh, or ouch. Some have the power to shape us and direct our lives. Others we forget about very quickly and are relatively inconsequential. Two, we had ought to
conceive of them this way because people shape their hopes and aspirations, fears and aversions around achieving higher manifestations of pleasure in their own internal pleasure/pain conceptual hierarchy. You already said people do this. This isn't a naturalistic fallacy because I'm not arguing a moral point about it, I'm arguing about concepts. We ought to conceive of it this way because it sure does seem to be the case and it could help us understand people’s motivations and actions. If we find a better way of looking at it, well we can go with that, but until then, I'll go with this. Not, is-ought.
Anyway, they are not all the same. When we are children, we derive great pleasure from playing in a sandbox for example. When we are teenagers the pleasure derived from it is not relevant to our needs. If pleasure was simply all just pleasure then why would one ever stop playing in the sand box? Or sucking on their mother's tit? Can you argue that suckling does not produce a large amount of pleasure? Babies seem to think it's the tits, pun intended. Yet, at some point it's no longer enough. We have desires to achieve higher pleasures, which coincide with avoiding higher pains. Crawling, then walking seems to be the focus of pleasure. This is followed by a series of pleasure foci that allow for a human to become a relatively independent adult. I’m not a developmental psychologist, please don’t expect me to list them all. Growing beyond the pleasure of sex, the pleasures become less corporeal and more ethereal. The pleasure of being a competent loving parent, or of being successful and satisfied by your mode of work, for example. These pleasures are experienced vastly different than suckling.
We grow through a hierarchy of pleasures and pains. Each one, as it develops, transcends and includes its predecessor. Crawling doesn’t make us stop desiring food, but food is no longer the most important thing. What I’m describing is a hierarchy of needs. Pleasure and pain are just experiences of fulfilling or failing to fulfill those needs. When we are hungry an apple is a high pleasure. When we are fed but not safe, an apple is a small pleasure, but obtaining a gun would be quite pleasurable. The apple isn’t any different, doesn’t feel or taste any different, but the pleasure is different. Etc, etc…
this is a different argument. we aren't talking about the best way to conceive of harm/pleasure so for the moment, set aside the practical issue of how we ought to conceive of pain/harm for the best overall good and address what type(s) of thing(s) it(they) actually is(are).
This is what we've been doing this entire time. I'm confused why I should drop it, anyway...
So you’re asking me to define pleasure and pain? As simply as I can, a pleasure is a stimulus perceived by an individual to be a positive unto their person. A pain is a stimulus perceived by an individual to be a negative unto their person.
I suspect this is a trap, for how could you not know what pleasure and pain are. Anyway, fair warning, if you try and argue that this is somehow evidence of it being a ‘sliding scale’. You’d be mistaken, that is merely one conceptual map that can be derived from that definition and a crude one at that.
I hope I’ve cleared some stuff up. I could go on, but it’s not that pleasurable to me.