Opioids The Kratom Mega Thread v3

[《Plasticity》]

^ That's what I was thinking.

Man waiting a year to get rid of my Kratom tolerance and staring at KG's of it every day in my cupboard are finally over

Dude, it litterally takes no more than a week and maybe a couple days for tolerance to go back down to zero and that's being generous IME. I litterally just got done with a 3 day break and I'm down to 6 grams from 10 grams... my starting dose when I first began was around 4 or 5. OMFG does kratom feel fucking amazing after a break though

 

[Flaga121]

I've never had much of a crash to be honest, but I do notice that about 6 hours after dosing I have about a 30min "down" period.

Markedly different then the Bupe w/d I've been going through anyway. I was putting out a hypothetical for how I felt one would get this "come down" because I did see it happen to one of the friends I shared my Kratom with. He likes to go too hard on things and with no tolerance took a solid dose all at once. Felt amazing for like 5 hours and then like shit for 30mins.

My dose is still 2-3 grams, the most I've taken at once was 3.5 of some shitty product I ordered before proper research.

 

[blight12]

^ That's what I was thinking.


Dude, it litterally takes no more than a week and maybe a couple days for tolerance to go back down to zero and that's being generous IME. I litterally just got done with a 3 day break and I'm down to 6 grams from 10 grams... my starting dose when I first began was around 4 or 5. OMFG does kratom feel fucking amazing after a break though

Yeah the year wasnt the intended waiting period, i just gave up on Kratom. Was the first drug where tolerance actually reached a level where the most powerful version did absolutely nothing besides causing panic level anxiety for some reason. The drug terrified me after a while because of the anxiety effects.

I am sure i tried again even a month later and was the same. So I gave up, but never threw the tons I had bought away, I just cant throw things away, just in case i might need it again. And so I tried recently and it was epic. I even got to use the crushed leaves i was annoyed at accidently buying back then, to make tea far easier as it can strain quickly through a normal sieve.

Back to using up the powders now and its a fukin nightmare. I just let it settle and pour it off the top, probably wasting.

 

[《Plasticity》]

Yeah I can relate to the anxiety, it's the reason I took the break. It's weird, it's like I'm half way withdrawaling after I take a dose with alot of tolerance. Thankfully small breaks like the one I just did always bring the magic back, I almost forgot how great kratom feels with no tolerance and that first full dose after going a couple days in withdrawals is just orgasmic relief.

Ps. Cut up a t-shirt and fold it over once so there's two layers and use that to strain. Powder is actually alot more effective than crushed leaf IMO, I think it has to do with more surface area.

 

[blight12]

Another big issue with the Kratom tolerance was the shakes. Would always get the shakes, hands would tremble noticably along with the anxiety. Now even with higher doses where i can feel its strong, no shakes, no anxiety, not even one comedown, i was quite surprised by that, i thought it was part of the drug and always occur to some extent. Seems kratom tolerance has a huge effect on the drugs effects beyond only dosage required.

Yeah, it seems the same vol amount of powder worked just as well, not noticeably better though but it makes sense it would be more effective for tea. Yeah i actually searched everywhere for cheesecloth for this the other day but couldnt find it. Might try normal material next time. Coffee filters would instantly break through at the bottom, so frustrating however using them by folding up the remaining sludge and squeezing it out worked ok.

 

[Flaga121]

I believe there are several alkaloids in Kratom that don't act on the opiate receptors. It would be logical to think that tolerance would build differently (seemingly far flower) to the other effects. This means someone taking a half zip in a dose to prevent w/d is also going to get nasty high level of some of the other effects (anxiety, flushing, ect depending on the person). From my limited experimentation and more extensive research I would say less is more when going for euphoria from Kratom. The more you need the less the Euphoria to side effects ratio will be.

On the other hand, some longtime users also seem to become tolerant to the side effects. I imagine if your dose slowly rises over time you don't feel an increase in side effects, but large jumps in a short span will cause them. The studies on the substance are lacking and less then scientific, but still, there is some interesting stuff out there.

 

[froglegs]

I just read through a few of the recent posts and now I'm very curious. I was using Kratom a few years back when my Norco would run out early. The experiences of others as well as those of myself have me thinking...

When I would go on Kratom binges, I would randomly experience a sort of precipitated withdrawal shortly after dosing. This would happen maybe 10% of the time I dosed and lasted maybe an hour or two before gradually declining.

Another thing I noticed was that Kratom made my Norco completely worthless (would take several days of no Kratom for me to feel the effects again). I had originally thought the Kratom made my opiate tolerance skyrocket until I dosed the Norco after abstaining from Kratom for 3-4 days and it hit me like a truck.

I really think Kratom has very strong, long acting antagonists but in very small concentrations. When you go on a Kratom binge, the antagonist builds up to a point of saturation (you experience the precipitated withdrawal for a short time).

I also think your tolerance to opiates is much lower than you realize while using Kratom. The long half-life of the antagonists creates the illusion that tolerance has sky-rocketed while in reality, this is what's keeping your tolerance down (think about how quickly the effects of Kratom return when you abstain for a few days or in my case, getting a full blown opiate effect from 50mg of hydro within a few days of feeling absolutely nothing from the same dose).

Additional evidence is the Kratom withdrawal. How many times have you heard the Kratom withdrawal described as "very forgiving physically when compared to traditional opiates but with a difficult mental component"? I'm thinking the mental aspect of Kratom withdrawal is caused by one of the other alkaloids that perhaps has SSRI-like action. The physical aspects of Kratom withdrawal are then nothing more than mild opiate withdrawal that results from cessation of use with a relatively low tolerance.

 

[f33lg00d]

Trazodone is great for countering the adrenal action that can be uncomfortable for those with high tolerance to the opioid effects and it adds to the sedation.

 

[blight12]

Yeah it always seems to be the case, tolerance builds for the negative stuff far slower then the good stuff. Also sometimes, like with meth, the neutral or unwanted effects like peripheral stimulation always lasts longer then the high.

 

[Hammilton]

I just read through a few of the recent posts and now I'm very curious. I was using Kratom a few years back when my Norco would run out early. The experiences of others as well as those of myself have me thinking...

When I would go on Kratom binges, I would randomly experience a sort of precipitated withdrawal shortly after dosing. This would happen maybe 10% of the time I dosed and lasted maybe an hour or two before gradually declining.

Another thing I noticed was that Kratom made my Norco completely worthless (would take several days of no Kratom for me to feel the effects again). I had originally thought the Kratom made my opiate tolerance skyrocket until I dosed the Norco after abstaining from Kratom for 3-4 days and it hit me like a truck.

I really think Kratom has very strong, long acting antagonists but in very small concentrations. When you go on a Kratom binge, the antagonist builds up to a point of saturation (you experience the precipitated withdrawal for a short time).

I also think your tolerance to opiates is much lower than you realize while using Kratom. The long half-life of the antagonists creates the illusion that tolerance has sky-rocketed while in reality, this is what's keeping your tolerance down (think about how quickly the effects of Kratom return when you abstain for a few days or in my case, getting a full blown opiate effect from 50mg of hydro within a few days of feeling absolutely nothing from the same dose).

Additional evidence is the Kratom withdrawal. How many times have you heard the Kratom withdrawal described as "very forgiving physically when compared to traditional opiates but with a difficult mental component"? I'm thinking the mental aspect of Kratom withdrawal is caused by one of the other alkaloids that perhaps has SSRI-like action. The physical aspects of Kratom withdrawal are then nothing more than mild opiate withdrawal that results from cessation of use with a relatively low tolerance.

I don't think you really know what precipitated withdrawal really is. There's no 'kind of' there's just suddenly feeling the worst withdrawal of your life.

I don't think there's any evidence for kratom containing antagonists, either. Kratom has a very short half life, so if you're waiting days before you take the Norco again it's no wonder it hit you hard, you would have lost a lot of tolerance in three days without anything, and been in withdrawal noticeably.

Kratom does raise tolerance pretty effectively. I have been off real opiates for a couple months now, but sometimes I'll snort a couple roxies on the weekend and when I do, I need 45mg to get high, where in the past 15 gave me a decent buzz.

I do agree about many effects not being opioid mediated, I don't think the strong stoning eye wobbling effects of Bali can be explained by opioid receptor involvement.

 

[Flaga121]

It DOES contain antagonists, and judging from other reports of users who forced themselves into Precipitated w/d from Kratom frogs experience is pretty typical. The w/d from a mild habit seems much milder then OC/Bupe/the like.

 

[《Plasticity》]

Yeah kratom does indeed contain one antagonist although in such small quantities IDK if it even has an effect, I personally do believe it's the main reason my tolerance to the opioid effects seems to build slow and I can relate to the short period of withdrawal after dosing high with a high tolerance. Lol nexus should really start paying me cuz I post this link all the fucking time, it's just a great page regarding the alkaloids so I guess this is the page I'm gonna be posting to the day I die...

Corynantheidine: μ -opioid antagonist, also found in Yohimbe. < 1% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

Source:
https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&m=488576

When I would go on Kratom binges, I would randomly experience a sort of precipitated withdrawal shortly after dosing. This would happen maybe 10% of the time I dosed and lasted maybe an hour or two before gradually declining.

Yeah I guess I can co-sign with this, I've always thought the antagonist played a role in kratoms ceiling effect and at some point tolerance rises to far and the antagonist takes over but I know very little about the actual pharmacology of this mysterious plant. I also think another explanation would be that eventually the amount of stimulant and other alkaloids gets to a point where it just makes you anxious and trembly, kinda like too much coffee but since your tolerant to the opioid effects the whole experience feels rather rough and unpleasant so I can agree with flaga's theory, It's probably the most valid one being that the antagonist makes up less than 1% of the alkaloids but then again if coryantheidine is very potent by weight that less than 1% could be plenty enough.

Another thing I noticed was that Kratom made my Norco completely worthless (would take several days of no Kratom for me to feel the effects again). I had originally thought the Kratom made my opiate tolerance skyrocket until I dosed the Norco after abstaining from Kratom for 3-4 days and it hit me like a truck

Couldn't have been more off in my case, I've always wondered why kratom never rose my opioid tolerance. I give myself one off day a week and 30-40mgs of hydro or oxy or half a point of tar still gets me high, these are doses I was using with no tolerance before I got on kratom.

I really think Kratom has very strong, long acting antagonists but in very small concentrations. When you go on a Kratom binge, the antagonist builds up to a point of saturation (you experience the precipitated withdrawal for a short time).

Again my experience has been the opposite, I should mention that I'm in no way discounting your experience, just sharing mine... I feel obligated to say that now as some people think I'm just shitting all over their ideas and get really defensive . If this antagonist is active I believe it's very short acting as I have taken an opioid right after my kratom dose and have never entered any half way withdrawal state like I do from kratom. This makes me believe that the agonist and antagonist are both short acting and only last for the duration of the kratom high but this is mere theory with no proof. It may just be those extra alkaloids that are causing these spikes in anxiety and tremors in high doses, kratom is related to yohimbe IIRC which has unpleasant effects in high doses.

I also think your tolerance to opiates is much lower than you realize while using Kratom. The long half-life of the antagonists creates the illusion that tolerance has sky-rocketed while in reality, this is what's keeping your tolerance down (think about how quickly the effects of Kratom return when you abstain for a few days or in my case, getting a full blown opiate effect from 50mg of hydro within a few days of feeling absolutely nothing from the same dose).

The bolded part is easily explainable by it's super short half-life, I believe the HL is like ~3 hours only and this is short enough for me to not cause any suspicion for these short lasting withdrawals and tolerance effects. The first part is a very interesting theory though I just can't subscribe to the fact that the antagonist, if even active at the doses that are in kratom, is indeed long acting for the reason I mentioned above but I could be wrong.

Additional evidence is the Kratom withdrawal. How many times have you heard the Kratom withdrawal described as "very forgiving physically when compared to traditional opiates but with a difficult mental component"? I'm thinking the mental aspect of Kratom withdrawal is caused by one of the other alkaloids that perhaps has SSRI-like action. The physical aspects of Kratom withdrawal are then nothing more than mild opiate withdrawal that results from cessation of use with a relatively low tolerance.

Again your kinda losing me, yeah many report a difficult mental withdrawal (depression, anxiety, extreme cravings) but this is a characteristic seen with all opioids and if there were any significant SSRI activity we would be seeing symptoms like brain zaps as well. Maybe kratom has some sort of SSRI action but I haven't seen enough evidence to sway me. Let's take a look at tramadol, the withdrawals from tramadol, which has confirmed SSRI/SNRI activity, are devastating for most and have been proclaimed to be far worse than even your standard opioid like hydro or oxy, something I just can't subscribe to.

If kratom does in fact have any sort of SSRI or SNRI activity (which it may very well) it's rather mild at best. I should also mention that I don't get many mental effects other than anxiety but I'm diagnosed with GAD so it's no surprise I'm thrown back into my old mindstate x2 for the duration of withdrawal but no significant depression though your right, this is a side effect seen by many kratom users but also many opiate/opioid users as well. I personally find kratoms withdrawals very mental but in another way, I find them mental as in if I keep myself buisy and my mind occupied the withdrawals are laughable but if I'm chilling at home by myself or trying to get sleep the withdrawals kick in full force, the only other poster I've seen bring this up is Seatle Stranger though so I may be in the lucky minority here so YMMV.

++++++++++++++

Mitragynine: Indole alkaloid. Analgesic, antitussive, antidiarrheal, adrenergic, antimalarial, possible psychedelic (5-HT2A) antagonist. Roughly 66% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

This is off-topic but I've always found this very fascinating, has anyone else ever got really mild psychedelic effects after smoking cannabis on kratom? I've noticed this very mild but colorfull honeycomb pattern that overlays parts of my TV screen when really high on both. Also, I'm a regular psychedelic user and it's by far the class of drugs I hold the most repect for and favor and I noticed that opiates/opioids kill or dull my trips but kratom seems to synergize and only dull some trips very slightly, maybe mitragynine is the reason for this, it is in fact an indole like some psychedelics.

 

[pinpoint]

I personally find kratoms withdrawals very mental but in another way, I find them mental as in if I keep myself buisy and my mind occupied the withdrawals are laughable but if I'm chilling at home by myself or trying to get sleep the withdrawals kick in full force

Same exact situation here. I blew through 4oz's last week and my last dose was last Monday. I went snowmobiling Tuesday thru Friday. Zero withdrawal other than waking earlier than I would have normally. Today I'm back home and bam.. lethargic, yawning, slightly anxious, mild cravings. Good to know someone else gets this too. I get a burst of relief when I see my vendor, phyto, has shipped out and FedEx will be back in my driveway Monday before 10:30AM so I can start this cycle over again, lol. So yeah, definitely largely mental.

 

[《Plasticity》]

Wow so others do get this effect, it makes the whole process rather easy at times. Also, phyto Is my VOC . May be a skirting on the edge of the vendorism rule though... Another thing I've noticed is that I get relief from my withdrawals immediately after dosing which is physically impossible as my body hasn't even had a chance to absorb the material, makes me wonder if some people can change the difficulty of their withdrawals by setting the right mindstate and keeping buisy, two things that many don't wanna do in withdrawal.

 

[pinpoint]

^^Haha, I know, that's why I didn't spell out the whole name. But yes, when I read your post it made me say out loud ME TOO. I actually plan my kratom breaks around things like vacations and situations when I know I'll be busy doing something interesting for a few days. Not everyone has this luxury though. I find it's important to make sure it's something interesting because menial tasks REALLY aggravate the mental aspect which leads to physical symptoms.

 

[《Plasticity》]

So going by your last sentence I'm assuming that your body also equates finicky tasks as withdrawal? I've found that kratom has sort of re-wired my brain in a way that when I get angry, I go into mild withdrawal.... I get overly anxious or excited, I go into mild withdrawal... I get stressed, I go into mild withdrawal. Would you say this happens to you as well? Again this is something I don't hear people mention so I'm interested if anyone else has had this effect.

 

[pinpoint]

Precisely. Kratom has been an excellent aid for doing shit like: filing my taxes, vacuuming my car, organizing my closet, fixing my garage door opener, etc ... lol.. so it makes sense that these tasks are like 5x worse when coming off of Kratom. I suppose it's similar to how benzos cause 5x worse anxiety when coming off them. It is weird though because I can go snowmobiling for 5 days while 'in the thick of it' and not feel a thing withdrawal-wise but as soon as I come home today and get faced with the task of cleaning out my car those withdrawals are on like donkey kong.

How's that song go? I don't care I LOVE IT...haha seriously though I love the motivational aspect (comes back in full force after a short break) that is so unlike amphetamines that would cause me to become motivated to do shit like: organize my highlighters to correspond to the color wheel, arrange pantry supplies using the dewey-decimal system, alphabetize the contents of my refridgerator, etc.. haha..

 

[《Plasticity》]

Kratom actually makes my job fun (I paint hydraulic cylinders for oil rigs) without affecting my cognition so it's great, like most opioids or pseudo-opioids it's a very lucid high whereas stims kinda make me manic. Another thing about stims is that I'm really susceptable to the crash so when I'm coming down I'm fucking useless, I can't even stand up to fast or I feel like I'm gonna faint and have my heart explode. With kratom, when I come down I'm just back to normal so that's definately a plus. I kratom!

 

[Hammilton]

I started another thread but I might as well ask here too: what kratom product would be most likely to produce opiate dreams, you know, the disjointed thoughts and images when you lay down and close your eyes while on an opiate. Bupe would give this to me after years of being on it, but this Bali? Nope. If I take it when I'm in withdrawal I notice it seems to kick in and surprisingly reminds me of snorted oxy. The strong opiate effect wears off quickly though, faster than oxy by far, leaving me slightly itchy and sedated, but not really feeling at all like an opioid. Not bad, but not great.

Would I be able to have those opiate dreams with a full spectrum tincture or uei? I love the really fast, hard hitting pure opioid euphoria taking 9g on an empty stomach while in withdrawal produces, perhaps sublingual FST or UEI would do the same?

Ham

 

[Flaga121]

No idea about the above question, I haven't ever tried to mimic opiate feelings, just used it to cover withdrawal and enjoyed it for the unique, complex, and arguably better high Kratom provides.

So, I decided to do a bit of an experiment yesterday (one might also say relapse, and that would be like 25% accurate, because it was pre-planned). I drank two glasses of Kratom throughout the day (One 2.5, one 3.0 both Bali from a mediocre vendor). Felt amazing all day (of course), though because I waited to take my second dose until the first had mostly gone away, I felt a bit irritable for an hour or so (I assumed this was me falling back into w/d). When I decided to rack out I realized Kratom doesn't lend itself to sleep as easily as Bupe, so I took some melatonin and valerian root. Fell asleep, stayed asleep for 12 hours, which hasn't happened since I stopped Bupe. Woke up feeling amazing, refreshed, no sign of withdrawal at all, no craving for opiates. I didn't expect an improvement a day after getting high.