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The Intelligence of DMT - A Retrospective Analysis.

Doldrugs said:
Schrödinger famously mocked the "scaling up" fallacy.
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Can you link to this, I've googled fruitlessly.

Quantum effects are only manifest in the quantum realm, and that is pretty much it. That's the whole point of quantum physics, that matter seems to behave very strangely at Planck lengths. It behaves strangely IN CONTRAST to the way matter behaves predictably on larger scales. That is why quantum effects are seen as so strange because the unpredictable behaviour is not at all present on a large scale.
 
i have the same feeling since i used lsd massively. I felt.. Well, just what you described here, except for those beings of light, which i happen to see once in a while since i was a kid. Its always the saddest moment of my life when they leave me again. What you say about chance is a very nice way to illistrate it. But why is that so? Why does life have more weight in the balance of chance?
 
^Oh, it was that... Cool. :)

Big Bang Theory doesn't do it justice.
 
^ I don't know, nowadays we can manage to analyse the chemical makeup of celestial bodies very far away. who says that we might not be able to analyse consciousness within a couple of decades? ^^
 
Bagseed said:
^ I don't know, nowadays we can manage to analyse the chemical makeup of celestial bodies very far away. who says that we might not be able to analyse consciousness within a couple of decades? ^^
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Who says? Godel says so.

Consciousness cannot analyze itself in full depth. Can we get a slight grip on such a advanced concept?
It is a self-referrential loop, a logical spook. Cannot be done. Period.
Every attempt will lead to a paradox.

It is kind of similar to the failure of humans to create a human artificial intelligence.
 
But wasn't godel talking about formal mathematical systems? I don't think it applies to all knowledge - understanding doesn't have to be mathematical. I won't pretend to fully understand godel (who ended up quite mad) but Douglas Hoffstdaeder who wrote 'Godel, Escher and Bach' surely did, and it didn't stop him thinking he could understand consciousness and intelligence and at some point make ai (and making some progress towards it in a pathetic way). Self-referential loops ('strange loops') were what that book was all about, and that type of thinking has been well absorbed in many areas of science - what makes you think present or future science can't advance to take into account those ideas and build from them and so become able to deal with issues like consciousness (maybe by doing this science wouldn't be recognisable from many 'spiritual' people's strawmen)

Even you saying consciousness is 'a self-referential loop' could be thought of as analysing and understanding consciousness (or utilising that self-referential, bootstrapping nature of consciousness to understand itself) - scientific progress is built on this property of consciousness through intuitive leaps (or the negation of such) - i trust this to continue in the future.
 
Godel is speaking about specific mathematical systems. Interpreting the incompleteness theorems as though they apply to anything else is fantasy.
 
its so absurd to think we could understand scientifically the dmt experience.

science has no access to other realm, only your consciousness can and DMT helps to open that door.
Bagseed said:
^ I don't know, nowadays we can manage to analyse the chemical makeup of celestial bodies very far away. who says that we might not be able to analyse consciousness within a couple of decades? ^^
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Doldrugs said:
Godel is speaking about specific mathematical systems. Interpreting the incompleteness theorems as though they apply to anything else is fantasy.
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By extension one could say all mathematics is fantasy.
 
well DMT does have a number of anti-inflammatory properties and probably regulates the expression of DNA in a number of ways and it looks like tryptophan which is an amino acid. Maybe it unlocks a certain intuitive part of our DNA?
 
murphythecat said:
its so absurd to think we could understand scientifically the dmt experience.

science has no access to other realm, only your consciousness can and DMT helps to open that door.
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why is it absurd? that's like the whole point of science... to understand our reality. maybe you go to "other realms" on DMT, but these realms are most probably deep inside your subconsciousness. I really don't get why you are so opposed to a scientific approach towards the psychedelic experience. science is not trying to invalidate the meaning of it either... nobody is going to "take away" your spirituality. but understanding which mechanism in our brains can provide these experiences could be very beneficial to mankind.

you ridicule science for "not knowing"... do you know where these realms are you're talking about?
 
im not against science, but the dmt experience is not a subconscious brain activity. it allows the mind to be free from the brain barrier.
or so I think

where those realm are? clearly available with my mind, but some of them are clearly not physical realm.

if its merely a brain activity, everyone would have the same kind of experience, everytime. hence its clear that every dmt trip is different.
thing is, science cannot understand consciousness because its not coming from the brain. thats my position.
Bagseed said:
why is it absurd? that's like the whole point of science... to understand our reality. maybe you go to "other realms" on DMT, but these realms are most probably deep inside your subconsciousness. I really don't get why you are so opposed to a scientific approach towards the psychedelic experience. science is not trying to invalidate the meaning of it either... nobody is going to "take away" your spirituality. but understanding which mechanism in our brains can provide these experiences could be very beneficial to mankind.

you ridicule science for "not knowing"... do you know where these realms are you're talking about?
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FnX said:
By extension one could say all mathematics is fantasy.
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I understand what you mean. I think that also. Doldrugs, care to explain why this statement makes no sense?
 
Doldrugs said:
Godel is speaking about specific mathematical systems. Interpreting the incompleteness theorems as though they apply to anything else is fantasy.
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How do you know that? Are you sure?

Some people will not get Godel. It is hard, for sure.

The specific mathematical systems in Godel's works are dealing with human logic and its limits.

There will be propositions that are true but CANNOT BE PROVEN.. This cannot get simpler!

In fact math is everywhere, and scientists have been trying to mathematically model everything in our physical world.

So if maths have a ceiling according to Godel, then our understanding, our logical comprehension of the world will have a ceiling too.

How are you feeling today?
 
Molecular_Man said:
How do you know that? Are you sure?
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Because it's a simple fact of the theories. I am 100% sure.

So if maths have a ceiling according to Godel, then our understanding, our logical comprehension of the world will have a ceiling too.
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"Maths have a ceiling" isn't what his theories mean. The incompleteness theorems do not imply what you're saying no matter how many times you repeat it. You're just taking the names of the theories and extrapolating illogical things from them. Next you'll be telling me a fixed speed of light means alien policemen put a speed limit on the universe so we couldn't fly to their police planet. Or that general relativity proves that everyone in your family is in the military.

murphythecat said:
im not against science, but the dmt experience is not a subconscious brain activity. it allows the mind to be free from the brain barrier.
or so I think
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Based on what? No evidence exists to support that. Plenty of evidence exists to support the idea that DMT is a chemical that affects your brain and nothing more. You're espousing anti scientific views: of course you're against science. You reject scientific reality because you prefer a fantasy.

if its merely a brain activity, everyone would have the same kind of experience, everytime.
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Uh, what? Why? That's not true for any other drug experience or human experience. The human mind does not act identically to any other human mind under any circumstances.

Doldrugs, care to explain why this statement makes no sense?
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I don't even know where to begin. The quote was entirely incoherent. Mathematics is a logical and clearly defined field that has proven concretely useful over and over. There's no causal or logical connection between the post he quoted by me and his insane statement that a huge field he obviously knows little about is entirely fantasy.
 
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Doldrugs said:
Because it's a simple fact of the theories. I am 100% sure..
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Fact is not theory and theory is not a fact. You mess things up.

One more time.. You are 100% sure..
How do you know that what you believe is true?

Doldrugs said:
"Maths have a ceiling" isn't what his theories mean. The incompleteness theorems do not imply what you're saying no matter how many times you repeat it. You're just taking the names of the theories and extrapolating illogical things from them. Next you'll be telling me a fixed speed of light means alien policemen put a speed limit on the universe so we couldn't fly to their police planet. Or that general relativity proves that everyone in your family is in the military.
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What Godel implies? I am all ears, I want to "learn" from you.

For the non math-savvy reader, we must state that:

Probably you haven't studied LOGIC and you haven't understood Godel.
So you have no right to express any personal opinion with such a rigor.

Your only scientific qualifications are some popular science books you had read at some time.
Am I right?

How do you dare to use the word "illogical" ? You don't even know what logic is.

I will stop here. Go read what are the implications of Godel's monumental work and then come back.
 
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